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Old August 26, 2008, 01:22 PM   #26
threegun
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The 243 is a fine cartridge however I limited my choices to 223 and 308 because they both are more readily available. If it ever became necessary to buy ammo on the black market both the 223 and 308 would be much easier to find etc.
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Old August 26, 2008, 01:34 PM   #27
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I disagree with everybody. For close quarters HD, neither the 308 nor 223 will beat the shotgun. Whatever happened to that concept? And if for some unlikely reason I had to engage in longer-distance, farther-outside-the-home defense, it would be the 223. If the threat was far enough away, the liklihood of shooting 308 is nil. I doubt you could call it "home" defense.

Norman Schwartzkof kept a shotgun propped against the wall next to his bunk during the Gulf War and he had could have anything he wanted. There's a lesson in that.

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Old August 26, 2008, 01:57 PM   #28
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Chalk me up as another Mohican. I love my FAL, but am realistic enough not to use it as a HD weapon, especially due to it's length and weight. Actually my HD weapon is generally a pistol, but in times of real trouble, I would go for my Colt Tactical Carbine.
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Old August 26, 2008, 02:56 PM   #29
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Ed, I have shotguns. If I knew that precision wasn't going to be needed or that ranges wouldn't become extended I would grab the shotgun for sure. The rifle can do it all albeit not as good up close as the shotty.


BTW guys I'm not suggesting using the 308 for home defense.
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Old August 26, 2008, 07:14 PM   #30
David Armstrong
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DA, Based on what?????? What made you choose the 223 over the 308?
Based on just general experience. If I'm having to hump gun and ammo, I prefer the lighter stuff. If I have to shoot a lot, I prefer the lighter rounds (ever tried firing 500 out of an M1 Garand at a rifle seminar? It ain't fun!). If I need to shoot somebody, the .223 gives me all the range I can effectively use or worry about. If I need to penetrate stuff I can switch to heavy .223 rounds designed for penetration for most needs. there's a reason why virtually every military of any note has changed ammo is going to lighter, smaller rounds for general purpose use and nobody is going up to the .308.
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Old August 27, 2008, 01:41 PM   #31
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How about a 6.5mm Grendel?

I saw someone mentioned the 6.8SPC already. Why not the 6.5mm Grendel? First, I am not going to debate the 6.8 vs the 6.5, I only wish to say that if you want an AR platformed weapon with more punch than a 5.56mm but with the same size factor, weight, controls, and close range capabilities, either of these mid-sized calibers would be an excellant choice.

My personal preference resides with the 6.5mm Grendel. I own a JP Enterprises CTR-02 in Grendel with a compensated 20" barrel. The rifle is the same size as any of the other AR's I ever owned but has sub-1/2 MOA with facotry 123 gr. Laupa HPs and delivers as much punch past 400 meters than the .308 does as the 6.5mm bullet has a much higher ballistic coefficient.

Check out the 65grendel.com/forum for yourself. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Old August 27, 2008, 02:02 PM   #32
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I ranch , and i live in a small town . I use both calibers . My ( dreaded hb 16" ar ) is my vermin and home defense gun . It lives by the bed with a red dot , and occasionally goes out to show the " city folk " how to estimate range with another scope . I also have a couple of .308 rifles among the herd , and right now a savage scout is my " pickup gun " . its light , fast , and the 110 hps i shoot will turn a coyote off right now . I also have a FAL stoked with mil spec 7.62 and a pack of 6 mags because after all i do live in the great wide open .
I really dont understand your question because you did not give details . I will say tho that i have the fal , i have the bolt in .308 , and still the AR in .223 or if you say it that way 5.56 is my bedside gun . Wanna defend your home well get an ar and just shoot em down ( you gots lots of ammo in a mag ) . Wanna defend terrain , well get a good rifle ( bar is too expensive ) , set it on a bipod and make the most of the iron sights . A talented fella could do it with a bolt , but i am not that talented , and besides you gotta move every couple of rounds lol .

So again , just what are your aims , and just what are you defending ? If your serious about SHTF then get a good .22 lr rifle and a couple of bricks of ammo . That will pay you better on both poundage and utility than any centerfire .
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Old August 28, 2008, 05:06 AM   #33
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DA,
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there's a reason why virtually every military of any note has changed ammo is going to lighter, smaller rounds for general purpose use and nobody is going up to the .308.
Comparing military needs to civilians needs isn't realistic. The odds of me ever needing 300 plus rounds of rifle ammo is remote to say the least.

All the other stuff you listed were high on my list and the reason the 223 was my choice for so many years. Things are changing now however. I'm not as mobile as a decade ago despite switching to the lightest rifle out there and removing some of my load weight.

As I try to imagine what types of threats I may face, threats like riots, looters (live in hurricane Florida), and gang attacks (gang activity increasing daily in my area), a few things keep popping up. I'm not going to need 300 plus rounds of ammo and I might need to penetrate vehicles and/or building material to eliminate a threat that has taken cover.

If the 308 AR doesn't buck as much as an M1A1 or your M1 Garand I'm thinking that it might fit my needs better. Follow ups won't be as fast and ammo levels as high but hits would be more effective and cover less protective.
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Old August 28, 2008, 05:09 AM   #34
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Redneck,
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So again , just what are your aims , and just what are you defending ? If your serious about SHTF then get a good .22 lr rifle and a couple of bricks of ammo . That will pay you better on both poundage and utility than any centerfire .
In my survival plans the 22lr plays a major role. For riots and such I want more power and centerfire reliability.
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Old August 28, 2008, 08:33 AM   #35
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I disagree with everybody. For close quarters HD, neither the 308 nor 223 will beat the shotgun. Whatever happened to that concept?
Not everybody, post #20

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If you are worried about over penetration the shotgun can’t be beat and at CQB ranges it is much more devastating shot for shot, if loaded correctly.
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If the threat was far enough away, the liklihood of shooting 308 is nil. I doubt you could call it "home" defense.[/
The op never stated "home" defense and never answered the questions in post #2 go all you are playing is a guessing game. The answer is; there is no "right" answer, without more info.
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:23 AM   #36
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What are you defending yourself against? How Many? Where at? For how long? At what range?
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The op never stated "home" defense and never answered the questions in post #2 go all you are playing is a guessing game. The answer is; there is no "right" answer, without more info.
Jmorris, I apologize for not answering your question directly. I didn't even see it for some reason. I did answer the question though in a few posts.


Quote:
If the poop ever hits the fan via riot or other civil unrest I don't see myself being as mobile as when I was younger.
Quote:
As I try to imagine what types of threats I may face, threats like riots, looters (live in hurricane Florida), and gang attacks (gang activity increasing daily in my area), a few things keep popping up.
Quote:
For riots and such I want more power and centerfire reliability.
These (how many, how far, how long) are unknown beforehand. I do expect a city type environment with vehicles and building/homes etc. I also expect that it would come during a riot or other civil unrest situation or possibly a gang thing. Home defense will be a handgun or shotgun or AR in 223 thing.
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:31 AM   #37
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Comparing military needs to civilians needs isn't realistic.
It has nothing to do with comparing needs. It has everything to do with efectiveness of the weapon. Militaries would not be moving from the .308 to the .223 (or similar moves) if it gave up much in the area of practical effectiveness.
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Old August 28, 2008, 11:36 AM   #38
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Militaries would not be moving from the .308 to the .223 (or similar moves) if it gave up much in the area of practical effectiveness.
It certainly has given up some effectiveness in exchange for increased firepower. I don't even think military brass will argue that they are sacrificing caliber effectiveness for firepower even thought the net effectiveness may remain the same or increase under military style maneuvers due to the increased firepower. For someone unlikely to face a large group of attackers, like me, the trade off is less appealing. Especially in the urban environment were cover is everywhere.

One thing is certain if all these militaries could find a way to eliminate the difference in the volume of ammo each soldier could carry the 223 would find itself in trouble. With its only advantage then being controllability.

I own several AR's in 223. I love them dearly. I just think that I may have prioritized the wrong areas. I can picture rioters shooting from behind vehicles or other urban cover. Areas better suited for a hit from a heavier caliber. I can't imagine being bum rushed by 5 guys heck bent on getting me...........a scenario that favors the 223 and its lighting fast followups. If I am bum rushed by 5 guys the 308 can get it done albeit slower. I question whether the same can be said of the 223 trying to penetrate urban cover.

Thats my conundrum.
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Old August 28, 2008, 05:06 PM   #39
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It certainly has given up some effectiveness in exchange for increased firepower.
No, it hasn't. That was the impetus for the move to smaller calibers. Within expected fighting distances there was/is no loss of effectiveness.
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One thing is certain if all these militaries could find a way to eliminate the difference in the volume of ammo each soldier could carry the 223 would find itself in trouble. With its only advantage then being controllability.
IFAIK, such a claim has nothing behind it to support such a position.
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Especially in the urban environment were cover is everywhere.
The .223 will do just fine in the typical urban environment. If heavy cover is a worry that is probably more of a bullet selection issue than a caliber issue.
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Old August 28, 2008, 06:03 PM   #40
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With its only advantage then being controllability.
That would also be in question, then. For instance, my FAL has far less recoil than my AR. OF course it is a heavy barrel model. Just the same, I'd like to try out one of those shorty Para FALs to check the recoil against an AR. The gas system, when adjusted properly, turns my personal FAL into .22LR, as far as recoil.
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Old August 29, 2008, 04:31 AM   #41
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7.62x51...

I want what ya'll are smoking if you think the 5.56 can touch it, at any range. With expanding ammunition, the 7.62x51 offers just the right amount of penetration with nearly the wound cavitation of your standard 12 gauge buckshot load.

Follow up shots? Amount of ammo that can be carried? How is this as much a concern as terminal effect? I realize the 7.62x51 isn't the poodle shooter, but that is kinda the point. With practice, you're arguing over maybe a couple hundredths of a second in your split times for a vast increase in effectiveness.

Yes, when you have to gain fire superiority to cover the advance of your team mates as they flank an enemy position, the amount of ammo you can carry, and the difference in fire rate might make a difference. But this couldn't matter less for the purposes of this discussion.

He's one man! He's not going to be laying down suppressive fire! He lacks the manpower, and the firepower to use modern infantry tactics, so the benefits the military considered when choosing its standard cartridge are irrelevant.

And he's on his property. He doesn't have to consider ammo weight. He can have 2500 rounds loaded in mags and stockpiled in a closet and he doesn't have to worry about how much it weighs.

For these purposes, the 5.56 offers absolutely no advantage over the 7.62. None. Any gain in fire rate by the 5.56 is neutralized by the dramatic increase in terminal effect of the 7.62. This is an advantage that can be appreciated at every range, not just 500+ yards. Plus, suppressive fire, and fire and movement aren't options here. The increase in ammo weight couldn't possibly be less of a concern. This is the equivalent of an entrenched defensive position.
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Old August 29, 2008, 05:54 PM   #42
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With practice, you're arguing over maybe a couple hundredths of a second in your split times for a vast increase in effectiveness.
That is the great debate, whether there actually is any increase in effectiveness and if the difference matters. Currently, most of those that do ballistics work suggest no difference that matters.
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Old August 29, 2008, 10:43 PM   #43
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I'm a 5.56 guy, in so far as I am not in a position to be engaging anyone beyond its capabilities.

On split times and effectiveness:

My splits, along with the rest of the world, are faster. If I need to go even faster, I flip the selector switch to three round burst. My split times are, shall we say, mechanically impressive at that point. And the effectiveness of one round, let alone three? I'm comfortable with it.

Oh, and DA's comment about the difficulties of training with the heavier options shouldn't be under estimated. I've seen guys fatigue and allow bad habits to surface as the day wore on with some of the more traditional main battle rifles.

Don't get me wrong, the heavies have a place, and I like them there.
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Old August 30, 2008, 08:46 AM   #44
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No, it hasn't. That was the impetus for the move to smaller calibers. Within expected fighting distances there was/is no loss of effectiveness.
MTMillitiaman explain perfectly the main reason militaries are moving/have moved to the 5.56.............
Quote:
Yes, when you have to gain fire superiority to cover the advance of your team mates as they flank an enemy position, the amount of ammo you can carry, and the difference in fire rate might make a difference. But this couldn't matter less for the purposes of this discussion.
..............the 5.56 is not as effective as the 7.62x51 sorry.

Quote:
IFAIK, such a claim has nothing behind it to support such a position.
If we are correct as to why the military switched to the 5.56 and I believe we are correct, that supports my position.

Quote:
The .223 will do just fine in the typical urban environment. If heavy cover is a worry that is probably more of a bullet selection issue than a caliber issue.
I'm sure it will however I don't want "just fine" I want the best available. I'm sure the 308 will do fine in a wave style attack but if that was expected I would want the 223.
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Old August 30, 2008, 09:02 AM   #45
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I don't see this discussion coming to any conclusion. Its the same as the pickup truck vs compact car argument. It all about how you see yourself, what your needs are, and how much are you willing to sacrifice to achieve your goal. Either will get you from point A to point B, but the psychology of what you NEED vs the drawbacks of what you pick to fulfill that need.

Somehow I really dont see a need to defend against "rioters shooting from behind vehicles or other urban cover. Areas better suited for a hit from a heavier caliber"...I see more of a threat from roving mobs or bands of gangs looking for easy prey...not entrenched snipers or coordinated attacks by militias.
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Old August 30, 2008, 09:14 AM   #46
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What will the roving mob do after you fire the first shot? If the don't run away in fear that is.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:21 AM   #47
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Comparing military needs to civilians needs isn't realistic. The odds of me ever needing 300 plus rounds of rifle ammo is remote to say the least.

All the other stuff you listed were high on my list and the reason the 223 was my choice for so many years. Things are changing now however. I'm not as mobile as a decade ago despite switching to the lightest rifle out there and removing some of my load weight.

As I try to imagine what types of threats I may face, threats like riots, looters (live in hurricane Florida), and gang attacks (gang activity increasing daily in my area), a few things keep popping up. I'm not going to need 300 plus rounds of ammo and I might need to penetrate vehicles and/or building material to eliminate a threat that has taken cover.
Quote:
It certainly has given up some effectiveness in exchange for increased firepower. I don't even think military brass will argue that they are sacrificing caliber effectiveness for firepower even thought the net effectiveness may remain the same or increase under military style maneuvers due to the increased firepower. For someone unlikely to face a large group of attackers, like me, the trade off is less appealing. Especially in the urban environment were cover is everywhere.
One thing is certain if all these militaries could find a way to eliminate the difference in the volume of ammo each soldier could carry the 223 would find itself in trouble. With its only advantage then being controllability.

I own several AR's in 223. I love them dearly. I just think that I may have prioritized the wrong areas. I can picture rioters shooting from behind vehicles or other urban cover. Areas better suited for a hit from a heavier caliber. I can't imagine being bum rushed by 5 guys heck bent on getting me...........a scenario that favors the 223 and its lighting fast followups. If I am bum rushed by 5 guys the 308 can get it done albeit slower. I question whether the same can be said of the 223 trying to penetrate urban cover.

Thats my conundrum.
threegun (or should I say Walter Smitty),

If you want to buy a friggin .308 in an AR type platform, just do it. Stop making up ridiculous scenarios to justify your purchase.

You live in Tampa (in an urban setting from your posts) for crying out loud. What are the chances you will really NEED a .308 to defend yourself? You are talking about shooting through cover and what not.

For your threats, you mentioned riots, looters, and gang attacks. When is the last time Tampa had a riot? Do you actually live close to the bad parts of town where riots typically occur? If so, saving your money and moving to a better area would be a much better option. As for the looters, are you really that much of a target? Looting normally occurs in grocery stores where people need essentials and then moves to non-essesntials when civil unrest sets in. I went through hurrican Andrew and I helped out during the recover efforts. I saw all that stuff first hand. Looters rarely go into residential neighrborhoods since that is not where the goods are concentrated. As for your gang attack scenario, have you done something to **** off some gang members? Are you the leader of a rival gang? What do you think your actual chances of being target by a gang attack are?

Like I said, buy whatever the heck you want to buy but don't make up ridiculous scenarios for it. If some antis stumbled across they post, it would read like most people here are gun nuts hell bent on shooting people. There is a difference between self defense and murder. Some of your scenarios blur the lines quite a bit.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:22 AM   #48
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MTMillitiaman explain perfectly the main reason militaries are moving/have moved to the 5.56
According to some. According to many others, no. If the smaller round will do what you need, there is no reason to use the larger round with all the downside that goes with it.
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the 5.56 is not as effective as the 7.62x51 sorry.
Sorry, but that is not an isue. The issue of concern is if there is any difference in effeciveness for the situation. In some ways the 5.56 is more effective than the 7.62x51.
Quote:
If we are correct as to why the military switched to the 5.56 and I believe we are correct, that supports my position.
As has been siad before, you can base a decision on beliefs or you can base them on facts. I prefer facts.
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I'm sure it will however I don't want "just fine" I want the best available.
There is usually no best, just different.
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Old August 30, 2008, 04:38 PM   #49
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What will the roving mob do after you fire the first shot? If the don't run away in fear that is.
More than likely they will do just that. Historically, mobs don't stick around to areas of aimed live fire.
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Old August 30, 2008, 05:30 PM   #50
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It's not reallya ridiculous scenario. It's in keeping with the hope for the best prepare for the worst doctrine. Certainly far fetched according to history up to this point at least, but hey, cover them bases too. The fam will be counting on you.

Kinda brings us back to multiple 223's and at least one 308 for the party.
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