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Old August 24, 2008, 11:57 PM   #76
geologist
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My father, a WWII vet taught me to never give the other guy any warnings. If you have a weapon don't show it. If it comes to your life or his life just get it done.

Our bedroom is our safe room, I'd lock the door and load my 12 gauge pump as quickly as I could, chamber a round quietly and call the police on our cell phone.
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Old August 25, 2008, 08:16 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geologist
My father, a WWII vet taught me to never give the other guy any warnings. If you have a weapon don't show it. If it comes to your life or his life just get it done.

Our bedroom is our safe room, I'd lock the door and load my 12 gauge pump as quickly as I could, chamber a round quietly and call the police on our cell phone.
I thought there was no crime in Canada. At least that's what the fat
anti-gun nut tells me. I'll never forgive that dude for insulting Charleston
Heston.
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Old August 25, 2008, 10:33 AM   #78
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Michael Moore is a lying POS.

Quote:
I thought there was no crime in Canada. At least that's what the fat
anti-gun nut tells me. I'll never forgive that dude for insulting Charleston
Heston.
Canada has higher violence and property crime rates than the US. Not many people realize this. It's a function of our hug-a thug court system, our lack of CCW and the generally low number of urban households with guns and residents with the will and skills to resist.

Burglers are much more willing to enter a home in Canada with the residents present than the US. Guess why?

BTW, I lived in Toronto for 10 years and EVERYONE I knew locked their doors.
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Old August 25, 2008, 10:48 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geologist
Canada has higher violence and property crime rates than the US. Not many people realize this. It's a function of our hug-a thug court system, our lack of CCW and the generally low number of urban households with guns and residents with the will and skills to resist.

Burglers are much more willing to enter a home in Canada with the residents present than the US. Guess why?

BTW, I lived in Toronto for 10 years and EVERYONE I knew locked their doors.
No, you don't say. Michael Moore is dishonest?

I didn't know that about Canada, and all this time I thought there was
something in American water that made us so extraordinarily violent.

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Old August 25, 2008, 12:25 PM   #80
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Why don't people just leave RSA and Zimbabwe? Because the HATE RSA campaigne was never shut down. So they can't go to many countries.

See http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html
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Old August 26, 2008, 12:07 AM   #81
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how do you know?

Racking a shotgun as an attempt to intimidate an intruder? What crystal ball told you who or what you are facing? Yes, most burglars might cut and run at that sound; but what if that isn't what's in your house? How do you know that the sole intent of the invader isn't to kill you and your family? How do you know that instead of a guy who's in your house, instead of being a kid or someone looking for a quick way to fund a drug habit, isn't there instead to add to his count of murder victims and picked your place at random?
You don't know and can't know and any noise you might make only serves to tell your opponent exactly where you are. The only sound your invader should hear is the split second of roar from your weapon before the life leaves their body.
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Old August 26, 2008, 06:31 AM   #82
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Quote:
Wildebees wrote:

In the real world your house has been scouted and decided upon, your routine has been checked, your sleeping and waking patterns have been scrutinised, your dog been fed, they have been onto your property at least twice to check your systems.

Then they either feed your dog meat or poison it with Temic - it goes two steps and dies in silence, no suffering, Then when your family is watching TV and they hear someone is having a bath, they throw a garden chair through the window, rush in and put a gun to your daughter's head and one aimed at you before you have gone to your gun safe to get the short pumpgun, and even if you have it in your hands he crowds your kid and the other one whips your wife in the mouth with his Z88 9mm. They are hard and trained and fearless and in control, not you. They put the gun against your head and rapes your wife and daughter in front of you, then take the mobile phones, your watch, the pump gun, your vehicle keys and execute you from behind after you have cried and begged for your life. It happens daily in my city;
Wow, where the hell do you live, kuwait?

Seriously dude, you either watch too many movies, live in a war zone, or are in witness protection.

I'd say that the things you wrote about are the extreme .01% most drastic, unrealistic scenarios possible. Certainly not the norm for your average home invader.....
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Old August 26, 2008, 06:41 AM   #83
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Wow, where the hell do you live, kuwait?

Seriously dude, you either watch too many movies, live in a war zone, or are in witness protection.

I'd say that the things you wrote about are the extreme .01% most drastic, unrealistic scenarios possible. Certainly not the norm for your average home invader.....
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Derius, Wildbees is posting from South Africa where they have some of the worst violent crime problems in the world.

There are countries where rape is considered either a medical treatment or a sport. Let's be thankfull that the US and Canada are not on that list.
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Old August 26, 2008, 09:29 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derius_T
Wow, where the hell do you live, kuwait?
I think you have Kuwait confused with Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFan
Racking a shotgun as an attempt to intimidate an intruder? What crystal ball told you who or what you are facing? Yes, most burglars might cut and run at that sound; but what if that isn't what's in your house? How do you know that the sole intent of the invader isn't to kill you and your family? How do you know that instead of a guy who's in your house, instead of being a kid or someone looking for a quick way to fund a drug habit, isn't there instead to add to his count of murder victims and picked your place at random?
You don't know and can't know and any noise you might make only serves to tell your opponent exactly where you are. The only sound your invader should hear is the split second of roar from your weapon before the life leaves their body.
Amen brother. Amen. I was just sick of people parroting this marketing bull-@@@@.

Why do people think that crack-heads think logically? And why do people think
everybody knows the sound of a shotgun being racked or how effective a shotgun
weapon can be at close range?

There are just too many assumptions, and I would still rather have a 22lr pistol on
which I am trained than a shotgun which I don't know much about other than how
to rack it.

I think this thread has beaten the dead horse long enough.
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Old August 26, 2008, 10:51 AM   #85
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You don't know and can't know and any noise you might make only serves to tell your opponent exactly where you are.
No. It also serves to let that opponent know that you are armed. Again, as mentioned earlier, that tends to solve almost all of the situations most of us are going to encounter with a minimum of violence, bloodshed, and danger. I would suggest that the instances of armed attackers willing to get into a gunfight just so they can add to their murder victim count is so rare as to be a complete non-issue for most of us.
Quote:
I'd say that the things you wrote about are the extreme .01% most drastic, unrealistic scenarios possible. Certainly not the norm for your average home invader.....
Exactly. Not the norm around here. And that is important. Wildebees lives in an area where violence like that while not the norm is certainly common. And yes, there are other parts of the world where good, decent citizens need to be ready to fight determined attackers on a regular basis. The USA is not one of those, thank goodness.
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Old August 26, 2008, 11:30 AM   #86
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And why do people think everybody knows the sound of a shotgun being racked...
I seriously wonder about that myself. Think of that other thread about the guy that shot the 15 year old trying to break into his house. Would that kid have known the sound of a pump shotgun? Who knows. I would guess that a large portion of BG's won't know or recognize the sound. However, there probably are cases where ANY sound indicating home owner awareness will scare them off.
It was said above that at least one person has personally seen it work so I'm putting it under "What the hell, I'll give it a try if I've got nothing to lose."
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Old August 26, 2008, 11:55 AM   #87
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chased off by a poodle? those big standard poodles are FIERCE!
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Old August 26, 2008, 02:16 PM   #88
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So P'zilla are you going to wait to rack the gun for the correct acoustically tactical moment or display it to the BG and then rack? Or rack as it first comes into your hands as you perceive a threat?


That's the issue.
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Old August 26, 2008, 02:18 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911_freak
chased off by a poodle? those big standard poodles are FIERCE!
Yes, I hear frenchmen surrender to them all the time. And don't ask me
about the physiological reaction of the average frenchman to the sight
and sound of a German shepherd It's not pretty nor does it smell
nice. Then again, being frenchmen, you probably won't be able to tell.

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Old August 26, 2008, 02:22 PM   #90
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Or rack as it first comes into your hands as you perceive a threat?
Well, I suppose I'd go with that one but there are two problems:

1) It's impossible to imagine every possible tactical scenario and so I won't discount a tactic that may have it's place under certain situations even though I personally doubt that I would ever use it intentionally.

2) As I stated, my shotty is an 1187 and so makes a slamming bolt sound, leaving me essentially out of the argument portion anyway.


I haven't really argued for or against this tactic. I have only pointed out some things I thought worth mentioning. David Armstrong stated that he has personally seen it work. Who am I to say it doesn't?
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Old August 26, 2008, 02:35 PM   #91
Glenn E. Meyer
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One can imagine reasonable alternatives. Why would one display a firearm in a nonlethal configuration to opponents that may use lethal force unless you think they really aren't going to use lethal force. In that case, brandishing the gun is problematic.

It's a silly argument of hypotheticals for the self-defense shooter. One could imagine that a law enforcement officer in front of a crowd (in a movie with Angelina Jolie) might rack for intimidating sound effect.

If you pick up the gun, you think you have to fight - rack it. Cut the crap with internet prevarication and straw person what ifs, IMHO
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Old August 26, 2008, 03:17 PM   #92
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It worked for me and my cousin. My racking was on a Mini-14 and the men knocking on the door (who refused to say who they were) ran fast enough to turn Carl Lewis green. My cousin chambered his Mossberg and leveled it on two teens burglarizing his truck. They froze in fear and began to beg not to be shot.

Glenn, If someone is shaking the handle on your bedroom door, with you prepared to fire once the door is breeched, what will it hurt to add a rack? You still have plenty of firepower in the shotgun and might even have time to replace the ejected shell. The benefit is possibly not having to kill a human being. Draw back............possible one less shell. This is one what if that I would bet my house has happened many times.
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Old August 26, 2008, 03:26 PM   #93
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Having any combat firearm in anything less than absolute readiness is a gross mistake, and risking a possible malfunction just to mske a noise is just as big a mistake. If you choose to warn them use your voice. I'm a law abiding citizen, not a rattlesnake.
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Old August 26, 2008, 03:44 PM   #94
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Micrgunner, How does racking the slide on a pump effect its readiness? Aside from the obvious of one less shell.

Perhaps we can learn from the rattlesnake. It can and will kill you but it would rather warn you first. In the case of the snake.....it warns to save valuable venom. I would rather warn (if safely possible) to avoid all the legal and psychological BS associated with killing a human being.
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Old August 26, 2008, 03:51 PM   #95
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Micrgunner, How does racking the slide on a pump effect its readiness? Aside from the obvious of one less shell.

I don't know about you but I've had many a shotshell hang up whilst attempting to chamber. They're made of plastic a subject to distortion and knicks. I'm not going to relenquish the one shot I'm pretty sure I've got just to make a noise that the BG may or may not hear or may or may not recognize.
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Old August 26, 2008, 03:57 PM   #96
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Glenn, If someone is shaking the handle on your bedroom door, with you prepared to fire once the door is breeched, what will it hurt to add a rack? You still have plenty of firepower in the shotgun and might even have time to replace the ejected shell. The benefit is possibly not having to kill a human being. Draw back............possible one less shell. This is one what if that I would bet my house has happened many times.

If you want to unload your gun to scare someone, go right ahead. Not wanting to restart the great training argument, but I've gone through enough FOF to know what to do without unloading my gun.

I really haven't seen anyone before talk about throwing away a round for the sound effects.
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Old August 26, 2008, 04:02 PM   #97
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I don't know about you but I've had many a shotshell hang up whilst attempting to chamber.
Nope never happened to me but I see your point.
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Old August 26, 2008, 04:10 PM   #98
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I really haven't seen anyone before talk about throwing away a round for the sound effects.
You haven't heard of folks talking about firing a warning shot? Pretty much for sound effects. Our country does this our soldiers even do this on occasion. Personally I probably will never eject a live shell or fire a warning shot but it is obvious that it has its place and is done all the time. Whether its right or wrong is debatable.
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Old August 26, 2008, 05:27 PM   #99
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Not wanting to restart the great training argument, but I've gone through enough FOF to know what to do without unloading my gun.
Thats great Glenn. You know what to do with your shotgun. So do I.

I can't help but wonder just why you object to employing a tactic (under certain circumstances of course) which could possibly end the attack and eliminate the need to kill someone? Will it subject you to increased risk of death by employing it (again under certain circumstances in this case the one I posed)? Sure it gets poo pooed on by the "experts". If it doesn't seriously increase your risk of death why not try it despite the experts opinion?

I am intimately familiar with my shotgun having shot threegun for years. I have no doubt that both you and I could easily eliminate anyone who breached our bedroom door. I guess I would rather not have to.
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Old August 26, 2008, 07:00 PM   #100
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If you pick up the gun, you think you have to fight - rack it. Cut the crap with internet prevarication and straw person what ifs, IMHO
That's a good point, and perhaps was not clear earlier. Racking should not ever be done merely to intimidate. You would rack only if you are willing and legally authorized to use the gun.
Quote:
I really haven't seen anyone before talk about throwing away a round for the sound effects.
Racking should not throw away around, it should be the final step to bringing gun into a condition of readiness. I'll fall back on my old shotgun instructor days where we discuss the many advantages (both safety and tactical) of keeping the chamber empty (cruiser ready) on most shotguns as the normal method of storage.
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I don't know about you but I've had many a shotshell hang up whilst attempting to chamber.
If that is true there is something wrong with either your shotgun, your ammunition, or your method of manipulating the gun. Hangups during chambering should be a very unusual rarity.
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