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Old August 21, 2008, 05:25 PM   #51
Glenn E. Meyer
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Not to thread hijack but that happened to us in Jamica. We went to the central tourist market and started to wander out to see the real people and a nice policeman grabbed us and shooed us back to safety.
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Old August 21, 2008, 06:09 PM   #52
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Quote:
The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.
That statement has little value without qualification. You need to add the words "per capita, per square mile", and see what statistics say then.

As has been mentioned, large, densely populated city areas are quite different from rural or farmland.
Today 03:45 PM
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Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia. (Not surprising this was 1st) I spent some vacation time in Venezuela quite a while ago, and hated it, as it scared the crap out of me. I also wasn't surprised it was ranked 4th. 3rd wasn't much of a surprise either, as I've always heard to stay in the resort areas of Jamaica if you want to keep your skin. We ventured as far as Ferngully while we were in Jamaica, but we were with an entire group and were whisked back to Ocho Rios, post haste. A trip to Kingston to "see how the people live, mon" as the cab drivers would like from every tourist, is completely out of the question. Biggest surprise for me? Ireland is ranked 55th which is 11 spots better than Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
Thanks to those who tightened up the loose verbiage about "safest" and "most violence."

The fact is, most of us....the VAST majority of us....will live our lives without ever being touched by violent crime personally. My own experience 2 years ago when my son was attacked, puts me out of the statistical bell curve on this (not to mention him of course ) We *feel* like it's more, because we watch the news and it seems an ever present threat. Certainly does down here.

But in comparison to Wildebees' life? Nah. I'll take mine, Houston crime or no Houston crime, thanks. My son lived through his attack. His girlfriend was untouched and only told to leave "or else". Would that have happened in South Africa, or Colombia, or Venezuela, or, heck, part of the UK? We live pretty well, and it's worth remembering once in awhile.

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Old August 22, 2008, 03:21 AM   #53
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"Good, that; but in each instance where my friends were killed in what was Rhodesia, and here now in South Africa, it was the loyal house staff that either willingly or under threat of death supplied ALL the information. Who is the insider in any event?"

Sorry, maybe I didnt express myself clearly. The reason I said that we try to take care of the staff as best we can is precisely because of what you are saying. The insider is the staff, as you point out, either willingly or under threat. But if you treat them well and they know they have a steady income, benefits and housing, at least you minimise the risk of them doing it willingly. And in Tanzania, we have neither tsotsis nor "war veterans" to worry about.

The alternative would be not to have any house staff at all, and I have been here much too long for that. The thought of doing dishes, cooking, laundry, babysitting, gardening, cleaning etc doesn't appeal to me one little bit.

"Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia."

Regarding crime capitals, I would not put all my faith in statistics. The figures for the western world (and possibly including SA and Colombia) may be more or less accurate, but how do you make even an approximation of the prevalence of crime in places like the Sudan, Zimbabwe or the Congo?

That NationMaster site had another chart that shows the USA in 8th place for murder with fire arms (to keep this fire arms related) and SA and Colombia trade places at the top:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita

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Old August 22, 2008, 10:57 AM   #54
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I'm not saying I doubt you but have you ever actually KNOWN this to work? I've never seen or heard of it outside of Hollywood and internet lore.
Yes, I have known it to work. I've seen it myself as a LEO, and I've taken a number of reports where the homeowner said the BG ran off when they realized the homeowner had a gun.
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Old August 22, 2008, 11:28 AM   #55
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I've got two personal experience stories about this subject.

When I was in the Navy in Guam I did a TDY to the Joint Armed Forces Police. This was during the Iranian Crisis. We had a Marine amphibious force pull into harbor. The force had been in the Indian Ocean or on Diego Garcia for more than three months. They laid in for refuel and supplies. Around 5000 marines got their first shore liberty in three months. It was a real mess.

We got called to a bar fight just off base. We went in to break it up. Two sailors in a bar full of Marines. It got ugly and I got my leg cut with a butterfly knife. My partner racked the shotgun, all at once it was as quiet and cooperative as a country church.


Some 10 or so years ago I was on perimeter duty at the prison. A young black kid hit the fence. When I arrived he was just throwing a blanket over the razor wire coils on the outside fence. I got out of the vehicle with the 12 gauge and ordered him to the ground several times. He looked right at me and had to see the shotgun. When he grabbed the blanket to climb I racked a round in. That kid hit the ground so hard that I thought he was trying to crawl into it. He starred at me frozen like a stone until responders got him cuffed.
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Old August 22, 2008, 12:04 PM   #56
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Like David Armstrong, I have seen it work when I was a LEO. On the other hand, I have seen it have absolutely zero effect on some hard bad guys.

We're all "reasonable people" here and therefore would think twice if we heard a shotgun being racked. However, the fact that you need to confront someone with a shotgun may lead one to believe that the other person is not reasonable.

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Old August 22, 2008, 12:28 PM   #57
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clickety-clack

Of course. Civilised, uniformed, even though slightly rowdy and unruly enlisted men used to disciplne were the threat. That clackity-clack then was a sound of authority to frustrated, but still civilised men.

The unruly crowd was not on a planned, considered, tactical plan, the action being executed by four armed terrorists, driven and inspired by a government and police force that not only allows criminal action but whose very actions are intent on protecting them.

Your crowd had not carefully gathered information about your weak spots for weeks, and they had not considered which is the best time to strike your house in order to obtain and maintain the initiative against the considered odds. They were not murderers intent on murder. So they were intimidated by the metallic clackity-clack as any thinking, law abiding, logical man would.

The considered and executed house break murderer with the pre-meditated plan to murder and to shed blood and to terrorise shall not be intimidated. He has come to intimidate.

Let's say there were two shotguns in the unruly crowd, and say THESE were racked and aimed at your unloaded shotgun carrier and others, and say that you KNEW that this same gang and many like them have been doing this with impunity for 14 years now, AND shooting the first threatening move - shall you just rack your shotgun as well and stand and think: "well my clackity-clack was louder than his clackity-clack, so he shall put his hands up and beg you to please not shoot?

No sir. Not in this country where I live. And not even if in your situations the perpetrators had loaded guns and enjoyed bloodshedding and humiliating and killing.

Be glad that you still have a government and law enforcement agencies that do not allow criminals a free hand. Be glad that law and order still exists. Please keep a government in the White House that keeps your country under civilised control otherwise your children shall live in a future USA where your guns shall be confiscated, or the situation shall be made impossible to own and keep and bear your firearm.

When that happens, the Africa situation shall come into play. With savages filled with bloodlust that shall savagely murder and maim and rape. Terrorists do not only wear beards and frocks and hijack aeroplanes. In this country it is a kind of human being who simultaneously believes that raping young girls younger than three years old shall cure his Aids. It happens regularly and is spread as gospel.

Like a Cape Buffalo intent on killing you, only a bullet in the brain shall prevent him from shooting first.
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Old August 22, 2008, 12:32 PM   #58
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The problem I have with some of the incidents described is that aren't you behind the reactionary gap when actually faced with your opponent.

It is a situation where you contemplate lethal force - knives are out. So you have to rack if you want to shoot? Slow? Could you mess up the rack - not that I would or any of us.

It would seem to me that the second I'm holding the gun because I need it, I'm racking then and there. If the sound helps - it's plus.

However, do I get the feeling that some are waiting to rack so that they can explicitly engage in some dominance inducing behavior as compared to racking when they need the gun. I understand the technical reasons for chamber empty but being me, academic, I'm interested in a deliberate display.
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Old August 22, 2008, 12:35 PM   #59
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I wouldn't count on any "racking" sounds to save your life. I would hope that the sound of the blast would scare off the criminal, but that's only if I miss... and hopefully I don't miss...
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Old August 22, 2008, 12:43 PM   #60
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Wild is the wild West...

Dear Doc,

I see you have pulled back your hammer and your fourty-four is pointing at my belly. Now I also know that last week you did the same thing to that youngster who started to cry, and then you smiled and shot him. Mind that muzzle, sir... and I know that two days before that you played this game with that girl and then forced yourself onto her and then you shot her through the temples.. now don't get excited now, we are civilised citizens here debating a little matter of ethics... And I was told that for a few years now... Why are you smiling sir?...

OK, tell you what - I am going to draw my Navy now, and I am going to yank the hammer back real hard; it is going to go CLICK!!! Now when you hear that fearsome sound you must know that I just may mean business here! Understand? Understand?
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Last edited by Wildebees; August 22, 2008 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old August 22, 2008, 12:50 PM   #61
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On this same page, and more:

"This nasty event seemed to have touched it off here a year ago, broad daylight...

As a police officer approached the home of the Petit family in Cheshire, Conn., on the morning of July 23, 2007, two men ran from the scene as flames poured out of the house. They were quickly apprehended. When officers then returned to the house they found Dr. William A. Petit Jr., 50; who had been severely beaten, and the bodies of his wife, Jennifer Hawke-Petit, 48; and their daughters, Hayley, 17, and Michaela, 11. The police said that the victims were were tied up in separate rooms, and that Ms. Hawke-Petit and one of the daughters were sexually assaulted before the house was set on fire.

The shock the killings caused in the bucolic community was amplified by the prominence of the victims: Dr. Petit is a well-known endocrinologist and his wife had been active in fundraising for local causes. And word that the two suspects arrested at the scene were both convicted felons out on parole led to new questions being raised about the state's methods of tracking parolees".
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Old August 22, 2008, 03:25 PM   #62
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Racking up!

I have been at both ends of a scattergun being charged into battery. Each and every time it has drawn MY attention. Does it cause uneasiness, does it produce fear, does it stop action, each door way to chaos is different.

As a advertising tool to project passive force it is a good one. If it dissuades your enemy from an attack it is a great one. If it does nothing you have lost nothing.
Those who use the noise issue as a tactical disadvantage need to rethink. If you are in motion, calling the calvary, directing your family you are already giving evidence of your location. IT IS AN ANONCEMENT OF I AM HERE AND DON'T COME TO THIS AREA. These are all forms of passive defensive force and are to your advantage if it refocuses a predator to move in a different direction.

If in fact these passive forms of defense including "racking" do not work and this predator continues his course toward you, then you have picked the right weapon for the job.

As Glenn put so well, I am not suggesting that charging your scattergun is a separate part of the force continuum, it simply is the method of getting you scattergun into battery, if that works as a deterrent, so much the better.

Good Luck & Be safe
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Old August 22, 2008, 03:29 PM   #63
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Yes, I have known it to work. I've seen it myself as a LEO, and I've taken a number of reports where the homeowner said the BG ran off when they realized the homeowner had a gun.
Alright then, I'll file it under "Useful if the Situation Presents Itself"

And under the second mental category of "True Internet Myths I Never Thought I'd Believe"
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Old August 22, 2008, 04:08 PM   #64
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Racking of a lever action rifle is pretty nice as well, but I'm not going to be too picky as to which I pick up first between pistols, rifles, and shotguns--whatever I can grab first will do the job.
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Old August 22, 2008, 04:33 PM   #65
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Springmom wrote,"The fact is, most of us....the VAST majority of us....will live our lives without ever being touched by violent crime personally. My own experience 2 years ago when my son was attacked, puts me out of the statistical bell curve on this (not to mention him of course ) We *feel* like it's more, because we watch the news and it seems an ever present threat. Certainly does down here".
+1 to that. I too am out of the curve. When I lived in NYC I was robbed at gunpoint 3 times. This happened when I was much younger 18-19. Twice at a gas station I worked at while in college and once at a bodega in Manhattan while I was a customer. Funny how the gun ban in NYC did not have any effect on bad guys getting guns. I wanted to buy a gun when I turned 21 and the permit requirements just to purchase one were ridiculous. I now live in Florida.
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Old August 22, 2008, 05:49 PM   #66
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Back on topic: I do believe there may be something to the racking theory under some circumstances against some criminals, but I certainly wouldn't rely on it.

BA
We're kicking this topic around as if there was one answer.

No way of knowing how Bubba is going to react to racking a shotgun anymore than we can tell how Saab1911 is going to react to Bubba.

The mere fact that one would even breach the subject of getting out of bed at 2AM and reaching for his tape recorder------(I'm sorry, I had to quit laughing, but now I'm back). Let me get a grip here.

Maybe if I'm Bubba and his friends, I run away, or maybe I start throwing lead your way, now that you've been kind enough to divulge your position.

But it's not just Bubba the burglar anymore. The home invasion scenario is much different, and tends to be more of a "dynamic entry", with crimminals having learned from the Police how to surprise people and take charge quickly while the family is still up and together.

The sophistication and planning displayed by the crimminals seems to be equal to (or better) than the sophistication of the victims (security wise) and to their wealth and social status--- which attracts the crimminals in the first place.

That's not to say there aren't bumbling amateurs, but I don't think they're any less dangerous.



Ah, Jeez---tape recorder with racking shotgun.
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Old August 23, 2008, 11:14 AM   #67
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Terrorists notwithstanding...

I live in the United States, Southern (People's Democratic Socialist Republic of) California to be exact. In the U. S., there are two basic groups of criminals; those who are more or less rational and those who are - by dint of narcotics use, mental defect or some combination thereof - NOT rational.

The rational ones typically do not wish to engage any resistance. They certainly do not want to engage armed resistance. The irrational ones are typically more hazardous than dangerous, but certainly not harmless.

A demonstration of armed resistance - that sound of a shotgun being racked - will normally dissuade the rational sorts. However, the irrational ones are so intent on their goal (for example, their next narcotics 'fix') they will not be deterred. In desparation, death is preferable to doing without. Various forms of mental instability are just as bad.

One never knows who one will encounter. That sound the back yard may be some silly kid trying to steal something of minor value - or just retrieving a ball kicked over the fence - or a pathological serial killer. Relying on a 'threatening sound' is in my estimation, rather ill advised.

In fact, the U. S. does have the equivilent of terrorists these days. Home invasion robberies are becoming more common all the time. They are still rather rare, and limited to higher value targets, but they are growing in number and venue. Calling the police - if possible - will result in the police being on scene as quickly as they can. However, police are limited in number and ability to move from place to place. Seven to ten minutes is a very long time when dealing with armed assailants who want to rape and or kill one's wife, daughter, dog and one's self. In my (not so humble) opinion, they only defense is awareness and the ability to immediately dispense deadly force at need.
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Old August 23, 2008, 01:21 PM   #68
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As a advertising tool to project passive force it is a good one. If it dissuades your enemy from an attack it is a great one. If it does nothing you have lost nothing.
Those who use the noise issue as a tactical disadvantage need to rethink. If you are in motion, calling the calvary, directing your family you are already giving evidence of your location. IT IS AN ANONCEMENT OF I AM HERE AND DON'T COME TO THIS AREA. These are all forms of passive defensive force and are to your advantage if it refocuses a predator to move in a different direction.
Good summary. Unless you are trying to be stealthy it doesn't cost you anything. Lots of potential for upside, little or no for downside.

BTW, Wildebees---BSAP, Bulawayo, 1976-1978.
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Old August 23, 2008, 01:24 PM   #69
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Ah, Jeez---tape recorder with racking shotgun.
Hey, a movie and some firecrackers worked in "Home Alone".
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Old August 23, 2008, 05:37 PM   #70
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In the U. S., there are two basic groups of criminals; those who are more or less rational and those who are - by dint of narcotics use, mental defect or some combination thereof - NOT rational.
Good for you for being the first to point that out.

Here we're into 3 pages of posts discussing dangerous threats as though they're all rational people who will react to certain stimuli in a rational manner.
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Old August 24, 2008, 12:41 AM   #71
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Got the "Make My Day Law" here in Colorado. Somebody is in your house and you fear harm, you know what to do. If I rack a scattergun, I better be ready to pull the trigger. Threats dont work. I have no problem making sure some scumbag has broken into his last house.
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Old August 24, 2008, 02:03 PM   #72
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This thread began on the premise of a Straw Man fallacy - that is, you grossly mischaracterize an argument that few if any ever make, and then in defeating that mischaracterized and weakened argument, you claim victory after never having dealt with the issue at all.

Thus, I'm surprised it lasted beyond the first post.

Law enforcement officers realize the value - IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES - of racking the shotgun, in the same way as any LEO has used the 'shaking' sound (rock in a can sound) in some varieties of pepper spray. I've never heard a single human being ever utter the idea that simply racking a shotgun will cause immediate and universal compliance. Someone said that racking a shotgun won't ensure compliance if your home is targeted by a squad of - what? - mafia hitmen? Well, no kidding! Is there a point to this?
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Old August 24, 2008, 03:17 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workinwifdakids
This thread began on the premise of a Straw Man fallacy - that is, you grossly mischaracterize an argument that few if any ever make, and then in defeating that mischaracterized and weakened argument, you claim victory after never having dealt with the issue at all.

Thus, I'm surprised it lasted beyond the first post.

Law enforcement officers realize the value - IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES - of racking the shotgun, in the same way as any LEO has used the 'shaking' sound (rock in a can sound) in some varieties of pepper spray. I've never heard a single human being ever utter the idea that simply racking a shotgun will cause immediate and universal compliance. Someone said that racking a shotgun won't ensure compliance if your home is targeted by a squad of - what? - mafia hitmen? Well, no kidding! Is there a point to this?
If it doesn't work most of the time, then the mechanism is useless to me for
home defense.

I'd rather have a high powered rifle which will be more effective at stopping
the bad guy.
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Old August 24, 2008, 03:47 PM   #74
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If you don't have one in the chamber then rack the slide and if that doesn't work then do it again after you have pulled the trigger. What do you mean you didn't have one in the chamber to start with.

For me the thought of staring down the barrel of a 12 ga double barrel shotgun is much more fearsome than any other gun I can think of.
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Old August 24, 2008, 11:35 PM   #75
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If it doesn't work most of the time, then the mechanism is useless to me for home defense.
Jae,

It only works reliably if you do it one handed like at the end of Terminator 2.
You also have to have one of those guns they use in the movies when they have a really long foot chase type scene in a warehouse or something and the guy racks the gun about 6 times and never shoots but nothing ever comes out.

Anyway, the issue is a moot point for me since my gun makes a slamming bolt sound being that it's an 1187. I'll have to stick to scaring the BG with a 1900fps poly-tipped deer slug through the chest. I've advised my neighbor to reinforce the walls on my side of his house.
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