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Old August 21, 2008, 08:20 AM   #26
B.A.
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Wildebees,

"We've been attacked. We won. We are the exemptions to the rule."

Sorry to hear you had to go through that. A good friend of mine and his family got burgled, beaten and raped during a long and horrible night a few years ago in Joburg. Luckily they all survived. Fences, watchmen, alarms, grills, locks etc were of no help. No dogs, no guns.
Up here, the average criminals are a little less organised and the crime level is nowhere near as high. I have no statistics to show it, but I have hardly ever heard of a break-in here where there wasn't at least one inside man. A shotgun, rifles and/or handguns in a house are more an incentive to try a break-in than a deterrent. As others said, a good dog goes a long way, but its far from a guarantee. After some unmentionables poisoned our little Buddy late last year, we got another one and he's doing alright, so far. We also try to take good care of our house staff (they have been with us for many years) and make sure we stay friendly and close with the neighbors.

Back on topic: I do believe there may be something to the racking theory under some circumstances against some criminals, but I certainly wouldn't rely on it.

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Old August 21, 2008, 08:27 AM   #27
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You guys in Africa don't mess around do you? Kids with AK-47s. Genocide.
And marauding bands of commandos.
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Old August 21, 2008, 08:44 AM   #28
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my personal therory is that while the sound of me racking the first round of buckshot may be enough to have him turn tail,it may not therefore it's a good thing I'm holding a loaded shotgun instead of a tape recorder.
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Old August 21, 2008, 08:46 AM   #29
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Not to mention bureaucracy, tropical weather, corruption, great fishing, moving the goal posts, horrendous traffic, opportunities, drunk driving, beautiful scenery, poverty, astonishing wildlife and political turmoil. It seldom gets boring down here...

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Old August 21, 2008, 08:58 AM   #30
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I understand. I just have trouble understanding why people stay there. I know there are jobs and family ties, people love the city life, etc. On the grand scale it seems not worth it to me.
If you live in South Africa, where are you gonna go?
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Old August 21, 2008, 11:28 AM   #31
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The sound of my mossberg 500 is distinctive. But IMHO racking to scare is like a threat and I don't believe in threats, it tips off your intentions. If you have picked up your shot gun, are you still indecisive on what you will do? If you were about to brawl would you tell the guy, "I am going to break your jaw"? That just giving them a chance, in a combative situation I don't believe in giving chances. What if in racking to scare the one time in fifty the guy turns and starts shooting at the sound. I like the sound of a racking shotgun as much as anyone else but isn't it just giving away your position and intention.
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Old August 21, 2008, 12:11 PM   #32
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The sound or a racking shotgun tells an aggressor that you're so far behind the curve that you only just then decided that the gun should actually be loaded.
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Old August 21, 2008, 12:24 PM   #33
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I suppose that could be argued - that said I have SXS 12ga mag leaned in near corner of my bed, a Makarov in spare holster velcroed to bedpost and my Camp .45acp w/10 rd mag hanging on wall hook near shotgun. the only sounds they'll hear is me telling them - I have a pistol pointed your way - then it fireing.
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Old August 21, 2008, 12:35 PM   #34
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+1 Stagger Lee. My point zackly.
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Old August 21, 2008, 12:48 PM   #35
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I know it's good marketing, but following the "logic" we've all been fed too many times to count, no one needs to buy any more shotguns. All
we need are recordings of the pump action shotguns being racked.
Bad logic. First, most BGs do not want to engage an armed opponent. Thus, racking the shotgun does serve notice that the person is armed, which does then lead to exit on the part of the BG in many cases. So let's not try to put the "racking shotgun" into a mythological category. Second, many people are mistaken in the effectiveness of the shotgun, and are under the impression that a single round will cover a whole room. So agaion, we get a certain percentage of those who migh tstay with a handgun on the scene who will flee from the shotgun. And finally, of course, there is that small number who will continue on. For them, the real shotgun (or some other weapon) is needed. So what is your goal? If it is to try to avoid a gunfight and convince the BG to go someplace else, racking is actually a rather good technique.
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Old August 21, 2008, 12:59 PM   #36
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Reminds me of Archie Bunker's taped recording of a barking dog in lieu of a real security system...
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Old August 21, 2008, 01:05 PM   #37
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If you live in South Africa, where are you gonna go?
That falls under "etc."


All though I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time somebody came from S. Africa to America.

Like I said, to each his own.

ANY city is no place I want to live. My town now has about 3500 people within a 5 mile radius and that about 3497 too many in my opinion.
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Old August 21, 2008, 01:07 PM   #38
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Thus, racking the shotgun does serve notice that the person is armed, which does then lead to exit on the part of the BG in many cases.

I'm not saying I doubt you but have you ever actually KNOWN this to work? I've never seen or heard of it outside of Hollywood and internet lore.
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Old August 21, 2008, 02:21 PM   #39
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it's an intimidating sound, for sure. so you pump it, yell "stop", and if the bad guy doesn't put his hands up, or if he makes a sudden move, you'd better be prepared to pull the trigger. if he freezes, even better, you didnt' have to take a life.
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Old August 21, 2008, 02:33 PM   #40
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Wildebees' post is a reminder of something I've read from Jeff White any number of times...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence. Even where I live, where home invasions are dismayingly common, they are NOTHING like what he describes.

It does give you a reason to be thankful to be where you are, if you're here.

For those of you who are THERE, I cannot imagine what you go through, and I wish you all the best. Wow. I have to think I'd have my KIDS packing 24/7/365, not to mention every adult in the house. And from what you say, that wouldn't necessarily do either.

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Old August 21, 2008, 02:34 PM   #41
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Saab911

But more to the point, would the attackers you mention be scared away
when you simply rack the pump on your shotgun?


This is Pretoria, South Africa. He is a trained terrorist, you are a law abiding citizen. They come into your home, having the initiative. The AK's or 9mm's are cocked and aimed at you or your kids or your wife. Merely racking your pump shall have no intimidating result. If you do not shoot as a first action, they shall.

No. there is no reason for dramatics. Only immediate and hard and violent action.

The perpetrators, being who they are and from which principle they operate expects immediate surrender or an equal play of showmanship. They do not expect a hard and immediate counter attack. That you can only do if you are armed and only need to pull the trigger. My Winchester Defender is loaded with slugs and I can shoot it off the hip where I want to at 6-10 m. My double action revolver is in the small of my back and I need to only pull the trigger, no cocking and saying "OK boy, put you AK down and let me straighten you out."

Then, on top of this, when the police come to investigate the crime after you have shot and killed the main threat, they charge you with murder and lock you up until your innocence is proved. No kidding.
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Old August 21, 2008, 02:54 PM   #42
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East Africa...

"We also try to take good care of our house staff (they have been with us for many years) and make sure we stay friendly and close with the neighbors".

Good, that; but in each instance where my friends were killed in what was Rhodesia, and here now in South Africa, it was the loyal house staff that either willingly or under threat of death supplied ALL the information. Who is the insider in any event?

That is the reason in SA households do not have house staff anymore.

I lived in Nairobi for a year and was robbed at gunpoint in my rented property. My "security guard" just happened to suddenly ask for leave for the weekend...
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Old August 21, 2008, 03:04 PM   #43
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Springmom (rather nice, that!)

"...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence...."

Why does the USA have such a safe society? Why did South Africa used to have an even safer society?

Because of the love of guns, the general ownership, and the knowledge and skill of how to use them.

We are being disarmed at the moment with new and silly gun laws. Some of us still have our guns and go through the most unthinkable rigmarole to keep them licenced and in our posession. You live in a democratic country, we do not. Stick to your guns in every sense of the term.
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Old August 21, 2008, 03:10 PM   #44
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I trained my dog to bark like the sound of my Remington 870 being racked.
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Old August 21, 2008, 03:31 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springmom
Wildebees' post is a reminder of something I've read from Jeff White any number of times...that, despite all the time we spend worrying about being armed 24/7/365, most of us live in what is the safest country in the world, with the lowest possibility of personal violence. Even where I live, where home invasions are dismayingly common, they are NOTHING like what he describes.
that is an incorrect statement. Look at Japan, Canada and of the Western
European Countries, and so on.

The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized
world.
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Old August 21, 2008, 03:45 PM   #46
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The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.
True but mostly very localized. For instance, the closest large city to me (Syracuse, NY) has maybe 3 murders a month, the area that I live, only 30 miles or so away, has MAYBE 3-5 in 15 years within a 20 mile radius. I wonder what the crime rate is in America if you take away the numbers from cities with populations over 1 million.


I think the reason those other countries have lower rates in because guns are essentially non-existent to good and evil folk.
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Old August 21, 2008, 04:09 PM   #47
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The U.S. has one of the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world.
That statement has little value without qualification. You need to add the words "per capita, per square mile", and see what statistics say then.

As has been mentioned, large, densely populated city areas are quite different from rural or farmland.
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Old August 21, 2008, 05:10 PM   #48
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The claim assumes the badguy is in his right mind. He may be completely irrational.

He may be drunk, drugged, psychotic or any combination and not act like a "normal" person.

Don't fall into the trap of believing the badguy has the mental capacity to rationalize.
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Old August 21, 2008, 05:16 PM   #49
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Old August 21, 2008, 05:21 PM   #50
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Well, as far as murder goes the US of A ranks 24th in the world per capita. South Africa ranks 2nd behind only Colombia. (Not surprising this was 1st) I spent some vacation time in Venezuela quite a while ago, and hated it, as it scared the crap out of me. I also wasn't surprised it was ranked 4th. 3rd wasn't much of a surprise either, as I've always heard to stay in the resort areas of Jamaica if you want to keep your skin. We ventured as far as Ferngully while we were in Jamaica, but we were with an entire group and were whisked back to Ocho Rios, post haste. A trip to Kingston to "see how the people live, mon" as the cab drivers would like from every tourist, is completely out of the question. Biggest surprise for me? Ireland is ranked 55th which is 11 spots better than Canada.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
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