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Old August 14, 2008, 05:47 PM   #1
Oquirrh
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Triple 7 experience

I fired four of my revs with 777. So far, I'm pleased.

Two 1858s with 20 grain loads (it felt hotter than 25 grains of BP or Pyrodex and the POI was higher too.)

A Colt 1860 with 20 grains.

And a Ruger Old Army with 34 grains. (really bucked)

No wads or filler.

Accuracy for the 58s and 1860 on par with Pyro and Kik. But the old Army was a little less accurate than with 30 grains of BP.

Obviously, some more shooting is necessary.

Clean up was a dream. After washing in a bucket of hot (from tap) soapy water the barrels and chambers were 95 percent clean. I wiped them out with patches and oiled.
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Old August 14, 2008, 06:04 PM   #2
Smokin_Gun
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Why I won't use 777, plus I'll stay with BP thanks

I got a range report over on Voy if ya wanna see it, pics of the targets I'm about to make mention. Hers' the Target and powder part of it.
Brought out a .36 1858 Euroarms Rem, a .44 1858 SS Euroarms Rem, and a ROA 7 1/2 bbl w/ adj. sites.
I used Goex fffg in the two Euroarms and 777 ffg in the ROA...25gr BP in the
.36 shot great tight holes touchin groups, so did the .44 Euro.
They both shot bean cans at 25yds repeatedly...I had upped the .44 Euro to 30gr Bp and it loved it.
The ROA with 777 ffg loaded w/ 25.5 grains +15%= 30gr BP I had two holes touchin' once and a 5" spread on the other three. I tryed another cylincder uppin' it top 30gr of 777 ffg +15%= 43.5gr or 35gr BP. Shot a better group tighter about 3"...but at 40 ft that ain't acceptable to me.
And along with that 2 squibs/misfires and 3 hang fires...I put the ROA down and kept shootin my Rems with real Black Powder.
Y'all can have that Hogdon 777 stuff ifin ya want...and my share too.
Nuthin but Holy Black for me.
.36 Euroarms 1858 25gr BP

.44 Euroarms SS 1858 25gr BP

ROA 1st grp 25.5gr 777

ROA 2nd grp 30gr 777


Tell me which one you prefer Black Powder fffg or 777ffg

.36 Rem left .44 rem right 25yds



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Old August 14, 2008, 06:15 PM   #3
long rider
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HEY, ya got my vote on that
its black for me, you can keep that bakeing powder.
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Old August 14, 2008, 07:59 PM   #4
mykeal
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Well, since Smokin' Gun chose to repeat his post from The High Road, I'll do the same:

777 has it's place in muzzleloader shooting. It's a synthetic black powder, not a substitute black powder like Pyrodex, so you can't really expect it to perform just like real black powder.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a real black powder fan from top to bottom, but I think there's a place for 777 in our sport (unlike some of the more recent bp substitutes). 777 is harder to use properly (which is in itself sufficient reason to use real black), but when it's done right it has impressive performance.

777 was developed for shooting heavier projectiles over longer distances out of long rifles. I've tried side-by-side comparisons with Goex using an ROA and an 1860 Army, and I've used it extensively in a Rogers & Spencer, and it did not perform as well as the Goex in any case. However, I've developed a 777 load in a .50 Traditions Lighting (one of the earlier bolt action inlines) and it groups as well as my 30.06 Winchester Model 70 at 100 and 150 yards.

I'm not surprised at the data posted by Smokin Gun, but I have to say the test was not what I'd consider to be a good comparison of the powders. It would be a fairer test if the best load of each powder were used in the same gun - one of the most sacred axioms of black powder shooting is that for accurate shooting one must develop the best load for each combination of gun, projectile and powder; simply multiplying the best real black powder load by 1.15 does not establish the best 777 load (especially when using different granulations in different guns).

If that were done I'd expect the 777 to perform better than it did, but frankly, my experience is that it's design is better suited for long guns so any pistol test is likely to end up with real black winning.
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Old August 14, 2008, 08:51 PM   #5
long rider
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ONE KNOWS WHEN ONE IS DISTINCTIVELY RIGHT.
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Old August 14, 2008, 10:06 PM   #6
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777 costs too much for me to even try. I'll stick with the original bp substitute Pyrodex.
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Old August 14, 2008, 10:26 PM   #7
Gaucho Gringo
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I use Triple 7 in my guns. I buy it on sale locally for $17.00 and when you factor in you use less of it per shot, the cost to black is almost the same. I like the easy cleanup of 777 and it smokes enough for me. The nice thing about the country we live in is that you have choices as to what you do and use and this is just another choice and what you choose may not be what I choose. It is not a matter of right or wrong but a matter of what you choose to use. Each to his own.
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Old August 14, 2008, 10:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
I use Triple 7 in my guns. I buy it on sale locally for $17.00 and when you factor in you use less of it per shot, the cost to black is almost the same. I like the easy cleanup of 777 and it smokes enough for me.
Triple 7 is 26.00 here compared to 16.00 for Pyrodex. It's lighter than bp so you get more per pound. Cleanup is easy with soapy water and smokes plenty.
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Old August 14, 2008, 11:47 PM   #9
Smokin_Gun
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Mykeal, good to know you can follow a good lead when you have one.
Just one thing you didn't comment on and that was 2 squibs and 3 hangfires of the ROA with 777...I fired 3 clyinders of that simulated powder the first two cylinders were at the targets he last one at 25yd cans of which none did I hit. I did not need to compare it any further to BP by shooting BP in the ROA.
You and I both know of a starting point with any BP weapon as far as powder goes...if you have 2 squibs and 3 hangfires in a New Gun...went over it with a fine toothcomb caps are good...what would you suspect the problem would be?
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Old August 15, 2008, 06:32 AM   #10
mykeal
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Quote:
if you have 2 squibs and 3 hangfires in a New Gun...went over it with a fine toothcomb caps are good...what would you suspect the problem would be?
Very simple: the 777 was compressed too much. It happens in long guns as well, although it's more common in revolvers because the loading lever makes it very easy to do.

777 is an excellent propellant. It's not necessarily 'better' or 'worse' than real black powder, it's just different. Like many things it requires one learn how to use it properly before it's true worth is realized. Many people say, "Why bother?", and I have no problem with that. As long as real black's available, it's an easy decision.
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Old August 15, 2008, 07:00 AM   #11
Raider2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykeal
Very simple: the 777 was compressed too much. It happens in long guns as well, although it's more common in revolvers because the loading lever makes it very easy to do.

777 is an excellent propellant. It's not necessarily 'better' or 'worse' than real black powder, it's just different. Like many things it requires one learn how to use it properly before it's true worth is realized. Many people say, "Why bother?", and I have no problem with that. As long as real black's available, it's an easy decision.
Agreed 100%
I've been playing around with it in my CVA Bobcat because it was kinda hard to acquire the real stuff locally "Now I can get it " & after a can worth through it I've gotten the hang of using it in my Bobcat with .495/.010 PRB & 80gr. will make my shots very accurate at 50 yards "as long as I do my part" & supprisingly I can hit decently at 100 yards with my 320gr. Lee REAL bullets & 70gr. charge but I still need to fine tune it for that bullet/rifle combination.
777 FFFG deffinitly does not like to be compressed & really likes the bullet to just sit on the charge for best performance & reliability hence one of the reasons why I'm reluctant in using it in any of my C&B Revolvers the other reason is because the max charge I should be using in my pistols with it is only 25gr. & that'd means I would deffinitly need a filler or wad between the charge & bullet because of how my chambers on my one 58' are reamed to about .60 inches deep which would be just shy of touching the powder charge much less compressing it any.
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Old August 15, 2008, 08:53 AM   #12
sundance44s
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I don`t like 777 2F in a cap and ball gun ..BUT ..I do use it in my black powder cartridges ..it`s one of the few Sub powders you can load under a moly lubed bullet and get good results ..it`s very consistant loaded in the cartridges , I don`t compress just the heel of the bullet touching the powder is where I seat them .
I did try some 777 3F in a few cap and ball revolvers with fair results ..seemed a little better than the 2F.
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Old August 17, 2008, 12:36 AM   #13
Smokin_Gun
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Quote:
Very simple: the 777 was compressed too much
Mykeal with all do respect, I do think after more than 30 years of stuffin' smokepoles and revolvers that I can tell compressed from touching the ball to the powder. Not the first time I have used 777 ffg nor had this same condition. By the way I don't think I saw you there helping me load. Give an Old Coot some credit.

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Old August 17, 2008, 04:51 PM   #14
sundance44s
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Smokin yer credit is good here anytime ..I wouldn`t want to shoot it out with ya ..
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Old August 17, 2008, 06:10 PM   #15
Smokin_Gun
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Thanks Sundance I knew I could rely on you Pard.
(Debit card ok?)
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Old August 19, 2008, 11:59 AM   #16
Oquirrh
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Second session with 777

I spent a Sunday morning with two Rem 58s, a Colt '60 and a '51 Navy .36.

I got consistent four-inch groups out of all of them with 777 at 50 feet with about one flyer per cylinder. I'd post some fotos, but I can't find my camera right now.

That's about an inch over the groups I get with Pyrodex. Not impressive.

I think the problem is getting consistent ball seating on the 777 without compressing it. Using the under-barrel loading lever it's hard to control seating, especially after a little carbon fouling builds up. I'm considering using filler just as a cushion between the ball and 777 to keep from compressing it.

If nothing else, the clean up is easy. Took me about a 1/2 hour to clean and oil the revs.
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Old August 19, 2008, 03:44 PM   #17
mykeal
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Quote:
I think the problem is getting consistent ball seating on the 777 without compressing it.
Yep. 777 was not made for c&b revolvers.
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Old August 19, 2008, 04:35 PM   #18
Smokin_Gun
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Quote:
I'm considering using filler just as a cushion between the ball and 777 to keep from compressing it.
Oquirrh, that would not be a good idea with the 3Se7en Hogdon. They do warn against it as it could cause a hazardous reaction. Read the Site for warnings for futher info.

Jus' throwin' the in yur bucket for ya.

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Old August 19, 2008, 08:08 PM   #19
mykeal
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SG - The Hodgdon's warning against using filler and wads with 777 applies only to cartridge loading.

On the page titled Loading Notes on Hodgdon's web site, in a paragraph headed Triple 7 in Cartridges, they warn
Quote:
The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property.
On that same page in the paragraphs titled Flintlock and Percussion Firearms there is no similar warning.

See: Hodgdon 777 and Pyrodex Loading Notes
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Old August 19, 2008, 10:33 PM   #20
Smokin_Gun
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Mykeal, thanks for pointing that out. But that's where I deduced, and I know I shouldn't use simple logic but I do, that if it's too dangerous to place filler or wads in a cartridge gun...well why would you do it in a Cap & Ball Revolver?

Smokeless of much higher pressures are used in cartridge guns and these objects are dangerous in them ... then why would it be safe in in BP Revs.

Anyway that's how I look at it, and besides I tried a .36 Navy with 777 and my lube pills and it shot like crap. Holes all over the place...did shoot better w/o the pills. But read that you aren't to use 777below .44 or .45 cal...then the other dangous measures.

I just shot it naked after reading all that and really jus' to shoot up the 1/2lb I have left.

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Old August 20, 2008, 06:47 AM   #21
sundance44s
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I didn`t much care for the buck of the 777 loaded with no fillers in my 45 cartridges so I called the folks at Hodgen powder co ...I told them the problem with a full load and they told me it would be ok to use a solid filler but just not to use loose fillers like corn meal ...By solid they ment card board disks only ...so I gave it a try , and it worked well ..but I don`t enjoy punching card board all day ..So I bought some Schofield brass , no fillers needed in the shorter Schofield brass ..and only needs to have 26 grs of the 777 to seat a 250 gr bullet on top .
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Old August 20, 2008, 12:50 PM   #22
Smokin_Gun
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You're a smart man there Sundance I'd say you were holdin' the high Cards when you done that... I don't mind punchin' holes in cardboard but from the trigger end.




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Old August 20, 2008, 05:56 PM   #23
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OK, I'll 'b ump' & ax' a question= Where are some good sources for schofield brass (& what kind of accuracy are you getting with those 777 loads?).
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Old August 21, 2008, 06:38 AM   #24
sundance44s
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I bought the Schofield brass and schofield dies at Midway ..good prices , my 45 lc Colt brass was starting to split anyway ..it was time for a rebrassing .
I `ve heard some folks say they can adjust their 45 Colt loading dies to load the Schofields ...I tried it with my Lee dies and couldn`t get that much adjustment ...so for less than 25 bucks I went ahead and ordered the die set . I`ve always used the 250 gr Oregon Trail RNFP bullets ..and with the 777 Accuracy impressed me I shoot small targets at 25 yards and further the groups were tighter than my 45 LC loads with plenty of punch for target shooting ..I haven`t put any through my crono yet ...I`ll get around to it one day .The Schofield rounds work fine in all my guns chambered for 45 LC ..even my Uberti 1860 Henry ..it functions flawless with them .
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Old August 21, 2008, 11:48 AM   #25
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I thought of midway first but thought that I would get second opinions. Thanks
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