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Old August 13, 2008, 04:38 PM   #51
Saab1911
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I don't care what they do so long as they serve. It's not about the training because the military doesn't adequately train people to carry guns in everyday noncombat situations. It's about the service and actually earning citizenship by giving something back to this country. My personal take is that American citizenship is valuable and should be bought, not just born into. It can't be bought with money but it can be bought by giving something back. It's a two-way street.

Robert Heinlein also espoused the view that only people who had served in the military could become Citizens and enjoy all of the rights and privileges that go with it. I'd be willing to expand that to allow people to go into police, fire, medical etc. positions...just something that lets them give something back to this great nation.

But getting back on track, I don't want untrained, uninformed people who may be unfamiliar with how a handgun works or what the laws are carrying one around my family. Some of you "purists" may not think so highly of your families, but that's your choice. Believe it or not, people are not going to be dying en masse just because it takes them a little longer to get a CCW and that "right" is subject to the same reasonable regulation that every other right in this country is, just as our founders had envisioned.
***? You do know this is a forum full of "Right to Keep And Bear Arms"
conservatives, right? Did you get lost on your way to an abortion rally?
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Old August 13, 2008, 04:40 PM   #52
Stagger Lee
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I don't trust any government to do the right thing, and I think they extort
way too much in taxes.

I have "paid" in taxes about 1/2 million dollars over the years

That's a big mansion with a pool and its own shooting range.

How can I be expected to trust a group of people who spend money like drunken sailors?
Well you need to remember that the elected officials represent not just you but many other people, some of whom want more socialist programs. So it's on you and me and others who care to work to elect only those who share our views and to work to guide the ones in office already. If your congressman and senators don't know your name and your opinions on the issues, then you haven't done your job as a citizen and contacted them enough. Instead of blaming the elected officials for the way they do their jobs, look in the mirror and blame that guy for not working hard enough to put the right people in office, even if it means running yourself.
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Old August 13, 2008, 04:41 PM   #53
rscalzo
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While time at the range is all well and good, nothing is better than force on force training. Unfortunately, very few facilities offer it. It the opportunity presents itself, training on a FATS system is outstanding.
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Old August 13, 2008, 04:53 PM   #54
Brian Pfleuger
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My personal take is that American citizenship is valuable and should be bought, not just born into.
That is NOT the take of the founding fathers or the intention (CLEARLY) of the constitution.

It is certainly your right to have that opinion but it is not IMO in the spirit of the "grand experiment".
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Old August 13, 2008, 05:02 PM   #55
Saab1911
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That is NOT the take of the founding fathers or the intention (CLEARLY) of the constitution.

It is certainly your right to have that opinion but it is not IMO in the spirit of the "grand experiment".
Well said.

The government governs at the pleasure of the people. The people don't
owe anybody anything.
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Old August 13, 2008, 07:08 PM   #56
BillCA
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Your level of training should be such that you can draw, fire and hit your target reactively without thinking about the steps needed. This frees your mind to deal with the threat situation - evaluating the threat, evaluating retreat options and non-violent resolutions, etc.

Once your training is such that you can at least get your firearm quickly into service, you can move on to more advanced training. Such training would include using speedloaders, cover, movement, contact-distance techniques, etc. All that "fun stuff".

I'll add the normal disclaimer here that one should carry a less-than-lethal form of defense (e.g. pepper spray) when practical. Even if for no other reason than to give you a chance to avoid shooting the gene-tampered turkey who's asking to be shot.

The bigger question is can too much training hurt you in court? I think it can. Pax's idea of re-taking the same training course every year (or two) doesn't get you into the trouble. It's the guys who take the ultra-advanced courses or courses in hand-to-hand/knife fighting too. I can see that training being flaunted before a jury to paint someone as willing to skip less-lethal means just so they could shoot someone.
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Old August 13, 2008, 07:18 PM   #57
Stagger Lee
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The people don't owe anybody anything.
Because nobody ever sacrificed anything to earn and preserve the freedoms you enjoy or the services that you take for granted, right?

We're not even a nation, are we? We're just a bunch of people who happen to live on the same continent, and everything we have we had coming from day one and no one ever had to do anything for us, so we shouldn't have to bother doing anything for our neighbors and the next generation, right?

Lucky for us all that our Founding Fathers and a lot of veterans over the past two centuries didn't share your point of view.
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Old August 13, 2008, 07:27 PM   #58
Scattergun Bob
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BillCA

Got into this thread, LATE, again.

Reading through this I am very impressed with all the wisdom. PAX, ERIC, and you have driven the nail home in my opinion.

The first paragraph of your last post is "right there for me", simply and clearly AND in one paragraph.

One of my standard banters to folks who ask about skills for survival is:

"Once the combat envelope wraps its' cold clammy arms around you, there is more than enough to think about besides how your weapon works, what condition of readiness IT IS IN, or where it shoots to."

Good job folks.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old August 13, 2008, 07:29 PM   #59
BillCA
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OK, fine.

In order to be allowed to carry a gun around me, my family and other citizens, I think that you should:

a. Have no criminal record, to include DUI and any violent misdemeanor
b. Have served in the Armed Forces or other held another public service job for at least a year.
c. Pass a comprehensive training course such as Ayoob's 40-hour class
d. be required to become a member of the National Rifle Association and remain a member in good standing.
e. show proof that you've voted in a recent election
f. demonstrate proficiency with a simple pass/fail range test before being re-licensed when your permit expires.
Some of your points are laughable.

Bad DUI convictions occur every day. Like a conviction for being drunk and sleeping inside the car parked on private property.

Misdemeanor violence? C'mon... lots of small guys have such records because someone picked a fight with them and cops charged everyone just to let the court settle it.

Public service should be a voluntary choice, not a mandate. I prefer volunteer military service over conscription too.

Become an NRA member? A government requirement to join a private organization? Should the gov't require doctors to join the AMA? Or madate which union everyone should belong to?

All of your rules, while I'm sure they're well intended, are far overboard. One can be taught the basic principles in two days (16 hours). It is then up to the "student" to practice to become proficient. Failing that, they should be seeking remedial help on their own.

It is not up to the government to hold someone's hand and make them proficient or skilled. If the student takes the course, never practices, fails to heed the instruction and gets himself killed then he's the one to blame. Likewise if he can't keep all six on his target at 7 yards, he faces the burden of legal and civil liabilities.
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Old August 13, 2008, 07:49 PM   #60
Saab1911
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Because nobody ever sacrificed anything to earn and preserve the freedoms you enjoy or the services that you take for granted, right?

We're not even a nation, are we? We're just a bunch of people who happen to live on the same continent, and everything we have we had coming from day one and no one ever had to do anything for us, so we shouldn't have to bother doing anything for our neighbors and the next generation, right?

Lucky for us all that our Founding Fathers and a lot of veterans over the past two centuries didn't share your point of view.
I'm getting a little weary of talking to you.

Let me just say that the most precious gifts in life are not bought but freely
given.

I contribute to society. Over my working life, I've paid 1/2 million dollars
in taxes. And I willingly and freely volunteer my time to causes and
charities which I deem are worthy.

Being forced to volunteer is an oxymoron. Totalitarian governments thrive
on such self contradictions.

Yes, freedom was given to me freely. And if my country is invaded, I would
willingly give my life to protect it.

Freedom freely given. Life freely sacrificed. Nothing coerced. That's the
essence of liberty, which you don't seem to grasp.

I think I'm done talking to you.

Cheers,

Jae
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Old August 13, 2008, 07:52 PM   #61
vox rationis
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Your level of training should be such that you can draw, fire and hit your target reactively without thinking about the steps needed. This frees your mind to deal with the threat situation - evaluating the threat, evaluating retreat options and non-violent resolutions, etc.

Once your training is such that you can at least get your firearm quickly into service, you can move on to more advanced training. Such training would include using speedloaders, cover, movement, contact-distance techniques, etc. All that "fun stuff".

I'll add the normal disclaimer here that one should carry a less-than-lethal form of defense (e.g. pepper spray) when practical. Even if for no other reason than to give you a chance to avoid shooting the gene-tampered turkey who's asking to be shot.

The bigger question is can too much training hurt you in court? I think it can. Pax's idea of re-taking the same training course every year (or two) doesn't get you into the trouble. It's the guys who take the ultra-advanced courses or courses in hand-to-hand/knife fighting too. I can see that training being flaunted before a jury to paint someone as willing to skip less-lethal means just so they could shoot someone.
very good points
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Old August 13, 2008, 08:00 PM   #62
Brian Pfleuger
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Freedom freely given. Life freely sacrificed. Nothing coerced. That's the essence of liberty, which you don't seem to grasp.
Amen.


I honor each and every person who serves and/or and dies for my FREEDOM. Compulsory service is one of many things they fight and die to prevent.
I'm not man enough to be a soldier but I thank God every day (literally) for those who are.


PS- What in the friggin' world does this have to do with prudent training levels?
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Old August 13, 2008, 08:05 PM   #63
vox rationis
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Lucky for us all that our Founding Fathers and a lot of veterans over the past two centuries didn't share your point of view.
But your own initial list of criteria is extremely un-Constitutional..

And on a more practical note, based on your elitist criteria a young law abiding adult female that simply takes a 12 hour CCW course and passes her competency test would not be able to carry a gun to protect herself just because she wasn't trained to become a combination of Delta Force operative plus Lawyer.

I think you came up with a well intentioned list but I don't think that you really thought your position through well enough.

And mandatory NRA membership, or even voting for that matter, doesn't really go well with the concept of "Liberty".
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Old August 13, 2008, 08:08 PM   #64
Saab1911
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Your level of training should be such that you can draw, fire and hit your target reactively without thinking about the steps needed. This frees your mind to deal with the threat situation - evaluating the threat, evaluating retreat options and non-violent resolutions, etc.
Very good points indeed. Let me draw an analogy.

Every culture thinks tourists are clueless. The French think American
tourists are stupid. Americans think French tourists are stupid, etc etc

Well, when you're in a strange place you have to consciously process
unfamiliar surroundings, unfamiliar currency, strange language, etc. But in
your native surroundings, you don't have to think about speaking, using
money, driving, or any other routine task. That frees up your brain to think
about other things. But a tourist you run into in your own native
environment is processing a lot of extra information consciously. So, tourists
appear dumb because they only have half a brain to work with. The rest of
their brain is being used to make sense of unfamiliar data.

You cannot be a tourist to gunfight land. You have to be a native. You
need all of your brain available to you for "Do I run away. Do I pepper
spray this bastard. Where is the nearest cover. If not cover, where is
the nearest concealment. Is the perp armed. If so, with what? Does his
weapon have greater range than mine? I should back away from this
perp so that the increased distance gives me a little more time. The perp
is still coming. I need to tell him that I'm armed and if he comes any closer,
I'll bust a cap in his buttocks. O.K. I yelled, but he's still coming. I'm now
behind cover. I should kneel so that I have a more stable platform. The
perp is danger close. BANG BANG"
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Old August 13, 2008, 08:13 PM   #65
Brian Pfleuger
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Every culture thinks tourists are clueless. The French think American
tourists are stupid. Americans think French tourists are stupid, etc etc

Well, when you're in a strange place...BANG BANG"

1) THAT is one of the better analogies I seen.
2) I still say 1 too many creative writing classes.
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Old August 13, 2008, 08:44 PM   #66
Dust Monkey
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1. Pick a gun/platform that suits you. Memorize the 4 rules

2. Train until you are comfortable that you can draw and fire, putting your shots in a 4 inch circle at 7 yards.

3. Shoot as much as you can, as often as you can with your carry platform.
(I try to at least shoot 250 rounds a month through my carry gun.)
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Old August 13, 2008, 10:52 PM   #67
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Good grief, this thread has turned into a mish-mash.

Should I send it over to L&P, so everyone can argue the Legal & Political question about whether training should be required by law? I could ... but rereading the initial post, that's not what the thread topic was supposed to be here.

Should I keep it in T&T, so everyone can discuss the Tactics and Training a prudent concealed carry permit holder will get for himself or herself? Love to do that, but an awful lot of people have gotten wildly away from that topic.

Should I try to split the two threads, tossing L&P posts to L&P, while retaining the T&T posts for right here? Ugh! Too darn much work, too hard to follow, too rude for the conversation.

Guess I'll just close it.

Anyone want to reopen the topic you're discussing, please do so in the appropriate forum and with a clear statement of which topic it is.

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