The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 18, 2008, 05:21 PM   #51
fjk1911
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2008
Location: CT (People's Republic of Konnecticut
Posts: 65
Since they don't travel alone in this here neck of the woods, <deleted> seldom do anywhere it seems, the real scary thing is having a Chebbyload of them each emptying a Glock mag in you and your family's direction. That is a lot of spray and pray firepower and you have that damn odds thing working against you.

Gotta use your brain as much as possible and steer clear. Then again we had another home invasion up here over the weekend. Seems like a new hobby for these punks.

Regards.

Last edited by pax; August 26, 2008 at 11:26 PM. Reason: Cuss words. Please don't try to get around filters. Thx.
fjk1911 is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 10:30 AM   #52
Borch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 202
So far they seem to mainly be shooting at each other here. I say we teach them all how to shoot and let them at each other. Sounds like good natural selection/population control if you ask me.
Borch is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 11:02 AM   #53
fjk1911
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2008
Location: CT (People's Republic of Konnecticut
Posts: 65
Today's news:

Ronney "Venezuela" Vargas was gunned down about 3:30 a.m. Saturday after the dispute with a group of men who fled the scene in a white car.
Police say the 20-year-old Vargas was shot once in the torso. The three-time Golden Gloves champion was pronounced dead at the hospital.
"He had a future," said his distraught father, German Vargas, according to the New York Daily News report. "They didn't just kill a boxer, they killed a champ."
According to the Daily News report, Vargas was pistol-whipped and then shot after the men became enraged when they noticed Vargas chatting with their girlfriends.
"It was a dispute over some females," a police source told the Daily News. "He talked to the wrong girls, and the boyfriend didn't like it. It was senseless. Stupid."


Hard to beat the odds when they are stacked against you.
fjk1911 is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 11:10 AM   #54
fjk1911
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2008
Location: CT (People's Republic of Konnecticut
Posts: 65
Plus another home invasion locally - three punks knowing someone was home. I mean burglarizing a house when no one is home is one thing, but intentionally invading is another and obviously is meant to do harm.
fjk1911 is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 11:14 AM   #55
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
I live in a small bedroom community outside of Madison, Wisconsin. We have had a large influx of drug crime, guns in schools, guys ridin' four, guys with nine cell phones, lower rent apartment complexes becoming crime havens, you know the obvious and the trend.

Our bangers are what I call "the second string." And that has pretty much been the case here since the early 1970's. We don't get the really tough, professional thugs. We get the incompetent guys who cannot survive in Chicago. Or we get the wannabees who run errands for the truly bad guys.

For example, an Hispanic gang left a tag on a then recently closed restaurant in our East Towne Mall area. The owner was trying to sell/rent the building to someone else, so he painted over the tag. There has been no more graffiti, or a replacement tag on the building now in almost one year.

Yikes, in some places you can get shot for painting over a gang symbol.

Our losers don't confront cops, bikers, business owners, or anyone else they think is armed or will report them. They hang in the darker shadows of the corners of major stores' parking lots.

If I was project a firefight in our city, I would opine that it will be an angry citizen shooting a "banger" on the first area encounter, and not the other way around.

(BTW, several years ago our drug selling bangers were using the telephone and lobby of our library for dealing. A female worker, alone, tossed them out. They went across the street to the park, and the beat cop tossed them out.)
The Tourist is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 11:32 AM   #56
Borch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 202
Tourist-

My area used to be a lot like that. All of the "gangstas" were what we thought were the "2nd string" or they were little white kids playing wannabe. But be forewarned, we found out that the "2nd string" was more like the "expeditionary force" or the "recon scouts" if you will. We are now drowning in big time Chicago gangsters who came up here to dominate the once wide open drug market, and the violent crime in this area has increased tenfold in the last five years. So be warned, this is what is coming, start pressuring your local LAWE to get on the stick or you may experience similar results
Borch is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 12:33 PM   #57
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
Borch, I do hope you are wrong. The only solace I take from this condition is the time frame this has taken.

As I mentioned, this situation started in the early 1970's. There really is only one bad area in Madison, and they bulldozed much of that housing. They're going to close another complex when the Madison City Council approved the move about two weeks ago.

(The idiots were stupid enough to open a ribs restaurant across the street from my club's old tavern. It went bankrupt and moved.)

I don't think the Madison area (and outlying towns) are fertile ground for this type of crime. Yes, we have pockets, but we're more the area for falafels and aroma therapy shops.

I was headed east one afternoon when a car riding-four left the Madison city limits. They weren't one hundred yards into the Sun Prairie town limits when a County Sheriff pulled them over.

Granted, bangers aren't the brightest criminals in the pyramid, but it's been +30 years and they still don't have enough revenue to buy those fancy cars you see on cop shows.
The Tourist is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 12:58 PM   #58
fjk1911
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2008
Location: CT (People's Republic of Konnecticut
Posts: 65
Not only do they not have fancy cars with the big money they make peddling drugs, etc. but they still live at home wit mama.

My wife taught in the inner city for ten years (1/3 black, 1/3 white trash, 1/3 everything else). She carried a 300KV stun gun with her at all times just in case. The funny thing was / is that the kids actually respected her for wanting to help them learn - she is very dedicated. The main beef with the kids was with the administration who just wanted them in and out of the school and didn't care what they did next - yes, the admin staff was white. Go figure.

Now she is in an all white school where the kids are way more disrespectful, the teaching not very cohesive and the admin more worried about building new fancy schools. She hates it there and is thinking of just quitting whereas she never felt that way at the slum school. Quite a paradox.
fjk1911 is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 03:32 PM   #59
Borch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 202
Tourist, I hope I'm wrong too. Believe me, no one hopes I'm wrong about the pattern you are seeing where you live compared with our experience more than me.
Borch is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 03:51 PM   #60
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
Borch, the one concern I have about our local issues is the the one word you used..."pattern."

If this is a way that big city gangs infiltrate an area, our experience could only mean the current breed of second string bangers are just incompetent, even for a street gang.

If that is true, and your depiction is right, then sooner or later a big wig from Chicago is going to re-populate the crop of idiots we have now with tougher and more efficient drug dealers.

Granted, there will be a period of "adjustment" while local gangs, Hispanic gangs, Asian gangs and Sicilians fight over the dirty little crown.

And as entertaining as that might be, we all know the answer to that scenario:

A tough, successful, connected under-boss from Chicago will bring big city crime to Madison, so entrenched that any action of our local PD will be too little too late.
The Tourist is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 04:30 PM   #61
Borch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 202
I'm not talking about the mob taking over or anything like that. I'm talking about gangs like the Vicelords and the Gangster Disciples, the Bloods, MS-13, Shotgun Crips, Latin Kings, Vatos Locos, etc. I wasn't referring to super organized crime, well except for MS-13 they're organized. I was referring to street gangs and the crimes they bring with them. Street crimes like muggings, drive- by shootings, home invasions, carjacking, stabbings, dope dealing, etc. And believe it or not it takes a while and they are not super obvious about it. The first time I heard about gangs moving into our area was in 1991, and form 1991 unitl about 2002 nobody took it seriously. Now it's 2008 and we've had 5 gang related shootings in less than 6 months, assaults and stabbings are near daily and there are areas of town that I won't go after dark unarmed. I wouldn't even go to the county fair without my weapon and an extra mag. Cocaine and crack are prevalent among kids and young adults between 15 and 24 and at risk youth is now described as kids ages 10 to 13. The worst part about it is that the general citizenship in our community still think it's a very safe place to live. They think all this is a fad that will blow through and not harm our beautiful peaceful city. Well this fad is approaching 20 years and just becasue no has been killed in a verified gang homicide does not mean that we don't have a problem. And, yes, by the time the general population wakes up to smell the coffee it will be far too late to easily rid ourselves of this trash, it may already be too late.
Borch is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 04:43 PM   #62
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borch
I'm not talking about the mob taking over or anything like that. I'm talking about gangs like the Vicelords and the Gangster Disciples, the Bloods, MS-13, Shotgun Crips, Latin Kings, Vatos Locos, etc. I wasn't referring to super organized crime, well except for MS-13 they're organized.
So was I. In fact, many of these groups you mention have already come and gone here. The MS-13 was the club that got there tag painted over.

There is some new organization called 'four corners' or something like that. They had been tagging in the usual slum areas. From the actions that followed, they were here for about four months and died of loneliness.

Actually, if I had to pick a group, I'd pick the Mob. My Dad said that when they ran Vegas the streets were clean and you could leave valuables out in the open in your hotel room.

Perhaps that's the problem. People respect the Mob and the Angels. But any Chicago operation that can't even keep a ribs joint from bankruptcy just doesn't have any management skill.
The Tourist is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 08:24 PM   #63
Borch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 202
Maybe you live in an area that they have, for whatever reason, deemed to be not the right area for them. Unfortunately I live in area that they seem to love because the problem seems to continually grow. Personally I think the general citizenry's ignorance or reluctance to admit that there is a problem helps to perpetuate the problem.
Borch is offline  
Old August 20, 2008, 04:09 AM   #64
evan1293
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 784
Do gangbangers practice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsT-EMhJqyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAEi4VrTgrU


There are full versions of 2 pac's range session on youtube under "2pac at the range."

If other gang bangers shoot anything like this guy did, I don't think we need to be too worried.
evan1293 is offline  
Old August 20, 2008, 11:33 AM   #65
Borch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 202
Tupac wasn't a gangster, he was a recording artist portraying what he thought a gangster was. Unfortunately, his portrayal brought about generations of little wannabe thugs who think they are tough because they listen to Tupac and have a gun.

The real gangs, the ones who are serious about selling dope and protecting their money and the areas the deal in, the ones who take their fueds with rival gangs seriously and are truly willing to die over a street name or a color, the ones who have grown up in that life for real and been in and out of jail their whole lives and been to prison and watched their families and friends die in what they perceive as a glorious fashion don't act or shoot or live like Tupac.

Tupac was a showman plain and simple.
Borch is offline  
Old August 20, 2008, 12:08 PM   #66
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
I truly believe that "gangstas" are simply the flavor of the decade. Just like the brand of crime that ran through the 'boomer population, gangstas will have their season.

The biggest issue is that they're not really that bright. In fact, they are downright stupid. In a very real sense, we ought to stay out of their way, give them ammunition and let them exterminate themselves.

They can't even put on a music awards show without shooting someone.

When the movie "The Godfather" first came, rumors spread that the real Mob guys went to that movie, laughed, and then debated just exactly which character in the movie respresented them. A banger movie produces a new street war.

This happens to such an extent that a documentary several years ago interviewing African-American women of that age demographic reported that they couldn't find men of their age. They were dead or in prison.

The tragic commentary of the collective life-span of these people is horrific. If you want a banger to live longer, send him to prison. He has a better chance of not being killed, and he gets better food and health care. It reminds me of wildlife, like tigers, who stand a better chance in zoos than roaming free. Horrible.

They have no parallel to a man like Sonny Barger, who is universally accepted and has kept a relative peace for almost 40 years. In fact, I sometimes opine the future when he passes away. He has been sick, and it's beginning to show.

Admittedly, crime is a part of our culture, from colonial highwaymen, to Jesse James, to Al Capone, to the Bloods and the Cripps.

But when you shoot a man and his family over the color of a hankerchief you have condemned that ideology to a quick trip to the trash-bin of history.
The Tourist is offline  
Old August 20, 2008, 12:47 PM   #67
Borch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 202
I wouldn't say Sonny Barger has kept a relative peace for 40 years. Lets not forget about the Angels/Mongols war in the mid to late 90's or the ongoing fued between the Angels and the Outlaws and their allies the Sons of Silence. Just because 1%'ers are much less out in the open about their business does not mean they aren't conducting business as usual, including violent business.
Borch is offline  
Old August 22, 2008, 09:29 AM   #68
bds32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 481
Practice?? A hard core gangster will have a gun readily accessible at all times. He may not do alot of shooting but you can bet he practices daily on getting the weapon into action by practicing his draw and presentation. This is much more than your average police officer or armed citizen does. These guys are survivalists as well as predators. They know they can easily be gunned down by a rival gangster at any moment if they let their guard down. They've got "eyes in the back of their heads." They are always looking for potential threats as well as opportunities to take what they want. It's the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest.

The debate in this thread about clothing as an indicator was interesting. I say to the folks who judge based on clothing, nothing wrong with that. You are following your instincts and making decisions that protect you and your family. Be careful not to exclude a predator because he doesn't fit your image of a bad guy. As far as the folks who think this is wrong, you are following your conscience on the matter but young criminals immulate what they see with hard core gangsters and gangland rap videos. Just about every young criminal associated with the gang lifestyle that I've seen in the past 14 years was wearing the type of clothing that has been associated with them: loose fitting, oversized, baggy, and/or sports jerseys. Maybe the duck theory has some validity. Nothing wrong with being cautious when coming across folks similarly attired.
bds32 is offline  
Old August 22, 2008, 09:56 AM   #69
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
Interesting posts. I'd say a person's appearance is a "dead giveaway" of his/her mindset. Then his/her mannerisms and speech patterns. Since I don't have the time/take the time to indulge in conersations with random strangers if you look the part of a villain I'll assume that either you WISH to be looked upon that way or you are. Game. Set. Match.

I've spent a lot of time in New Orleans, LA, Atlanta, GA and Detroit, MI and, yes, "they all seem to dress like that": low class Blacks, White and Latinos. Self-respecting individuals will not dress with their pants hanging below their arses and shirts 4X too big.

The range I work in I do find myself treating those who look like human waste different than the normal American person. How can you not? It's generally these guys you have to explain to them several times proper firearm handling skills because they don't listen. They are also the ones who make everyone else feel a bit uncomfortable with their outlandish dress and mannerisms.

Being the only Black person behind the counter they inevitably come to me - whether they are low class Black, low class White or low class Hispanic - and for the life of me I don't know why. I mean, the owner calls me Carlton (from the Fresh Prince show... ). I'm a lot tougher on them than anyone else who are probably trying not to appear "racist" I guess.

Just last weekend "Ray Ray" and "Shanikwa" come in. He could hid a baby on his hip his pants are so large and she looks like she ran into a brace of Jack Russell Terriers (rips all over her jeans). No worries. We ask that you fill out a waiver - read each question and initial. Of course, "Ray Ray" objects claiming to have "been here a million times". I tell him he cannot go out unless it's filled out. I turn my back and he's just initializing without reading as is his vampirella companion. I stopped them and told them that if they don't read it they can leave as they "were a liability to themselves AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, to everyone else here."

The left.

I was glad.

Unfortunately, I'm the only one who'll take such a stand with them. And it happens with all groups White, Hispanic and the "ubber macho" Chaldeans. I don't get it.

I especially keep my ears up when the gangsta dressed personnel arrive.

Of course, some of them are what I call "urban dressers" who end up being ery "cool" guys and gals; they just have weird tastes for clothing. So you truly cannot judge a book by it's cover but you'd be foolish to assume a guy who wishes to display an open acceptance of Satanism would not hurt you. That is one instance where the owner asked him if he ever comes back into the store dressed as he is he'd throw him out. Bravo!
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Old August 26, 2008, 03:08 PM   #70
tdrizzle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2007
Location: St Paul
Posts: 150
I remember reading that back in the days of Chief Bouza in Mpls in the 80s they didn't want to acknowledge a gang problem for fear of being accused of racism, so the bangers and dealers were allowed to flourish unchecked and become entrenched on the north and south sides.

More recently the southsiders have seen their territory encroached upon by something more effective than community policing-gentrification. Lots of the older turn of the century homes with gingerbread trim are being bought and rehabbed by 30 something couples, squeezing some of the lowlifes to the north side. Unfortunately, there hasn't been much turnaround up there, and many of Mpls' homicides take place inside that approx 2x4 mile area.

I'm lucky enough to live in a decent neighborhood in St Paul, but an old GF is on the edge of the north side, and when visiting her, it seems like a good idea to carry something (not that I don't otherwise) in case things go bang in the night (and not in the good way).
tdrizzle is offline  
Old August 26, 2008, 10:50 PM   #71
dr.j
Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2008
Location: tennessee
Posts: 55
There are a ton of gang members that have extensive military training. Some gangs actually require that their potential members make good grades in high school, graduate, and then enlist in the marine corps. The evidence can be found spray painted all over U.S combat zones. I've never been to Iraq, but I have seen quite a few pictures on the news of Chicago based gang signs painted in Baghdad. Also, the smart gangsters,and yes they exist! don't always dress like stereotypes so that they won't be targeted by law enforcement. The way a person looks or dresses has very little to do with their actions. I know a lot of harmless people who look fairly intimidating, and some of the most dangerous folks I have had the misfortune of meeting wear very nice suits. Whoever posted this original thread comes off as fairly ignorant. Of course gangsters clean their guns, are you f#@&ing joking! Their lives depend on their guns more often than most people, and yes they clean them. Plus shooting a gun is not rocket science. It is a skill that virtually anybody can learn with enough practice. The bottom line in this debate is that gang members come in a variety of forms. They could be drug addicted thugs with a dirty revolver, or they could be ex-marine expert marksmen that could kill you with a set of keys. It is fairly hard for the average person to tell what another person has been trained in by looking at them, so it is best to always assume that any assailant is better trained than you are, even if they aren't.

Last edited by dr.j; August 27, 2008 at 12:56 AM.
dr.j is offline  
Old August 27, 2008, 01:51 PM   #72
chrisp0410
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2008
Posts: 108
I hate to see the use of stereotypes to classify someone's threat potential. Capabilities and skill levels transcend a person's occupation and wardrobe choices.

Chrisp0410
chrisp0410 is offline  
Old August 27, 2008, 08:56 PM   #73
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,523
Quote:
You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?
They could shoot at any number of ranges. Generally, all they need is a DL. Nobody seems to ask if the weapon is legal.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:14 PM   #74
Ruthless4christ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2007
Location: CNY
Posts: 790
deff

Well not sure about asian/black gangs but alot of the leaders in the latin ganges both on the east, and west coast are from latin america, and those latin counterparts Are completely capable firarms trainers, many of them having gone through special forces training.

Down here in central america many people are upset with the deportations, because many gang members from here are being sent back after being in hiding in the us for so long.(thats kinda funny huh?) i refuse to believe that they were not showing the ropes to there counterparts over here.
Ruthless4christ is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 03:32 PM   #75
fixxervi6
Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2008
Posts: 91
I was at the shooting range once when some gangster looking people came up, all tattooed up, pants down below their rears with underwear sticking out. They were a mixed group some of them looking at me like they were expecting me to draw on them etc, just one of them appeard to be friendly, he was acting just fine even tho he looked like an ink shop hood rat with his underwear out.

They made me feel uncomfortable

Not only where they standing back to the point the guns were going off behind me, walking up and down the isle shooting etc, they wouldn't leave the benches alone when the range was cold.

I wouldn't go change my target

They sucked first thing I thought of was I snickered to myself and thought if I see you guys pull on me in the street their only hope of stopping me would be a lucky shot before they ran out of 9mm - but they were practicing.

Did I judge them? you better beleive it

This is the real world where 99% of us are not free loving hippies, you look like a gangbanger, talk like one, dress like one, act like one, I'm going to assume you are one.

I don't assume this based on skin, or even if you don't keep your pants pulled up for that matter, but if it acts walks sounds like a duck, its a duck.

If you don't like that I have some hard news for people to swallow, thats the way life is, thats how most people are, right wrong it doesn't matter, its the way things are.

Don't want to be labeled with the word or the stereotype, then don't display the labels on yourself, thats the hard cold reality folks.

You think its cool to dress like a bike gang member cause you like the way the leather feels and whatever else, be prepared to be treated like a bike gang member cause thats the label you are putting out for the world to see, yes, it really is this simple.
fixxervi6 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15450 seconds with 7 queries