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Old August 10, 2008, 04:26 PM   #26
B. Lahey
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Big pants mean nothing, look for the jailhouse tattoos.
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Old August 10, 2008, 04:27 PM   #27
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If someone wants respect and to not be treated as a hoodlum, they should not dresss like a thug, rapper, or gangbanger. I do not care who they may work for the majority of criminals on the streets dress like this and ALL who dress like this will be looked down upon. That is just the way it is.
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Old August 10, 2008, 04:33 PM   #28
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A recent study showed that criminals who shoot police officers are better trained and have more experience with firearms than the officers that they shot. So some gangbangers are definitely serious when it comes to being good at shooting their guns.

Here is a link to this report:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/comment...op_killers.asp

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Old August 10, 2008, 04:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
demeanor And Dress Are Not The Same
Quote:
Look For The Jailhouse Tattoos

Bingo!

All part of situational awareness. Demeanor is far more telling than dress.
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Old August 10, 2008, 04:41 PM   #30
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If I live in an area where everyone dresses this way..does that mean I should spend my entire life in high alert. probably not, but If I did live in an area like that, Id probably know that dress is not a cause for alarm. Onthe other hand just b/c you think the walk like a duck thing is accurate 99% of the time doesnt mean your right...I'd be willing to bet that aside from "pre-judging" these individuals, you dont do any type of follow up to see if in fact they were "ducks" again..its something that you feel good saying. But its still not true.
Quote:
the majority of criminals on the streets dress like this
Does that imply that the majority of people that dress like this are criminals..all KKK members are christian to my knowledge..are all christians are KKK members ? Its silly..really.
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Old August 10, 2008, 04:43 PM   #31
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Quote:
Do you all think that the gangbangers and other criminals practice and or train with their guns?

You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?

Do they clean their guns?

Anybody else ever thought about this?
first off, they 'practice' shooting AT folks. Much more realistic than punching paper. Clean or dirty, guns will fire
note that gang shooters are not mindful of what is behind their target, they don't give a rat's behind about the legality, and they are not concerned with civil suits down the road.
Gangs work with terror and disparity of force, AND, probably the most important aspect so far as we are concerned, THEY determine the timing of the attack.
The attacker is ALWAYS at an advantage in a gun fight.

Don't dismiss 'gang bangers' as ineffective clowns. That will get you killed if you ever have the misfortune to run into one.
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Old August 10, 2008, 04:53 PM   #32
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Don't get me wrong. I am generally a VERY open fellow and have no harbored ill will toward anyone on what I would call a 'racial or religious bias'. But I HAVE lived on the 'wrong side of the tracks' where a certain color of clothing will get you beat down or shot...regardless of whether or not you are playing the game.

It is a real combination of action and perception that sends up a flag. That does not mean the tidy, middle aged 'buffy and tad' flavored golf goof is NOT gonna try to take my car by force...but you cannot ignore the reality of crime and the general appearance of those who commit the crimes.
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Old August 10, 2008, 04:56 PM   #33
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The link LanceOregon provided, a synopsis of a more detailed FBI report from a few years ago, is worth a read. It is current enough, and relevent enough.

It is all relevant, but some exerpts for those who won't take the time:

Familiarity:
Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing "most of the time." Gang members especially started young.

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner-city, drug-trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, "about 18 before a cop shot me." Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience "because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again."

Concealment:
The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

Shooting Style:
Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, "claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights," the study says.

"They practice getting the gun out and using it," Davis explained. "They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship... We just putting it in your direction, you know... It don't matter... as long as it's gonna hit you…if it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever... Once I squeeze and you fall, then... if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."

Hit Rate:
More often than the officers they attacked, offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns. (Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired.)

Davis speculated that the offenders might have had an advantage because in all but 3 cases they fired first, usually catching the officer by surprise. Indeed, the report points out, "10 of the total victim officers had been wounded [and thus impaired] before they returned gunfire at their attackers."

Just as cops generally blade their body to make their sidearm less accessible, armed criminals "do the same in encounters with LEOs to ensure concealment and easy access."

Mind-set:
Thirty-six of the 50 officers in the study had "experienced hazardous situations where they had the legal authority" to use deadly force "but chose not to shoot." They averaged 4 such prior incidents before the encounters that the researchers investigated. "It appeared clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available," the researchers concluded.

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."

"Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms," the report states. "In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality."
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Old August 10, 2008, 05:02 PM   #34
Don Lu
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Making a mental note of different clues is not the same as saying someone who dresses a certain way doesnt deserve to be treated like everyone else based on dress alone which is what the OP'er has implied
Quote:
It is a real combination of action and perception that sends up a flag.
exactly..and action should hold more weight than just what your perception of a certain dress style, racial or religious group ect...I also grew up on the wrong side of the tracks..You, having lived on those sides of the tracks know it wasnt a majority of people who made it the wrong side of the tracks..you also know that for the most part people on that side of the tracks dressed simularly. So Id think since you have first hand knowledge that appearance wouldnt hold such weight. It doesnt matter if we are talking trailor park, ghetto, latino barrio...people in certain area will dress simularly for different reasons...bubba who works construction will dress the same way as his brother Hoss who is a meth head and steals from his brother bubba to support his habit. Action and demeanor before appearance is all Im saying.
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Old August 10, 2008, 05:11 PM   #35
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no worries...i think we are all really on the same page.
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Old August 10, 2008, 05:13 PM   #36
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I agree...we may be using different words to say the same thing with different emphasis on certain points.
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Old August 10, 2008, 06:40 PM   #37
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Don Lu, your profile says that you are in GA. Have you driven through Atlanta lately?
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Old August 10, 2008, 08:14 PM   #38
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of course .....all the time.
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Old August 11, 2008, 12:48 AM   #39
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgwfVJIoBNM

Video link to gang members in the military. Pretty scary. They are skilled in firearms (handguns and long guns), hand-to-hand combat, tactics, plus some get real-world gunfighting experience.

We need to be much more harsh when dealing w/ gang members. They have no place in society.
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Old August 11, 2008, 04:38 AM   #40
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HMMM. You pretty much sign away your rights when you join the military. I wonder if they go after these guys for RICO violations, or what???
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Old August 11, 2008, 11:00 AM   #41
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Quote:
Do you all think that the gangbangers and other criminals practice and or train with their guns?

You would think that these are folks who cannot legally own a gun, so where do the shoot?

Do they clean their guns?

Anybody else ever thought about this?

The one thing I have thought about: They have the advantage of not caring about taking a life.

Quote:
The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."
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Old August 11, 2008, 11:17 AM   #42
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You pretty much sign away your rights when you join the military. I wonder if they go after these guys for RICO violations, or what???
Honorable discharge, other than honorable discharge, or dishonorable discharge...it doesnt matter much either way.
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Old August 11, 2008, 12:17 PM   #43
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I write about courts and cops for a living. Where I work, we are seeing an increase in gang violence.
Here is what I see:
1. People are too quick to dismiss gang members as "just kids." When someone wearing a red hat shoots at someone with a blue hat, he's a gangbanger and I treat him the same way I would treat a mama Grizzly bear. I don't care how old he is.
2. The "shoot for effect" thing is right on. One guy unloaded 15 rounds into a house in a driveby and only hit THE HOUSE five times. Where did the other 10 bullets go? Another hit a cabbie in the head in crossfire trying to shoot rival gang members. They might not hit what they're aiming at, but it makes them more dangerous, IMHO.
3. Getting a gun is easy, even for kids 12-15.
4. It's exactly right that shooting someone from 10 feet doesn't take as much skill as one might expect. In another incident, a guy shot a gas station clerk. First shot went wide. Second hit the guy in the forehead.
5. Caliber debates we have on here are the biggest, dumbest waste of time: In 8 years, I have seen people killed with a .25 auto up to a .45 acp. I have seen people wounded (and permanently disabled, mind you) with a .380 and a .40 S&W to the head. In the .45 acp killing, the woman had a contact wound and the bullet still did not exit her head. Saw the same thing with a male victim and a .38 spl, where the guy got up and started walking around and only died because he bled out.
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Old August 12, 2008, 02:46 PM   #44
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Quote:
Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, "claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights," the study says.
What does that mean? These clowns can claim anything, but what does that mean? That they're so good that they allegedly can just point shoot?

Quote:
"They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship... We just putting it in your direction, you know...
Uh huh. I think that study is a lot of hot air, if you actually consider what these jerks are saying. About the only thing relevant is that many of them apparently have shot people before.
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Old August 13, 2008, 12:04 AM   #45
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I go into spots where this is a serious problem. I'd like to take at least two guns. All of a sudden the 5 shot .357 doesn't look so hot...

S
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Old August 13, 2008, 08:25 AM   #46
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I'm more intimidated of LEO's than gangbangers ! They seem to always want my family's money and have radios.

Quote:
Doesn't matter. My CWP instructor told us, "If a guy comes at you with his fists, you gotta assume he's Joe Lewis. If a guy comes at you with a knife, you gotta assume he's an expert, including throwing it. If a guy comes at you with a gun, you gotta asume he's Wyatt Earp." In other words, NEVER underestimate your opponent.
+1

A lone bager doesn't intimidate me in the least. They're at my outdoor range a lot. Demeanor & body language tells you everything. A crowd of bangers may make me want to clear out of the area, mob mentality. Even if you can spot the leaders, the odds are still grim. Better to slip quietly away.
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Old August 13, 2008, 11:54 AM   #47
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I have a friend that has used the range at the Tuskeegee National Forest, but no longer does because of those who frequent that range.
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Old August 18, 2008, 01:43 PM   #48
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I have read articles recently that would suggest that more and more criminals are indeed practicing with their weapons. Not to mention, as has been previously stated in this thread, the number of military memebrs who are returning to their premilitary criminal ways with all of that combat experience weapons training. The show "Gangland" on the History channel just did a show about gangs in the military and they showed a security video of a "gangbanger" in a shootout with the cops in Ceres, CA. The "gangbanger" was displaying proper grip on his weapon and employing effective use of cover and concealment and he ended up out manuevering and effectively pininng down 2 cops while his buddies made their escape.
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Old August 18, 2008, 02:52 PM   #49
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The scary thing is the thug with the sks or glock that will fire forever without ever being cleaned.
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Old August 18, 2008, 03:40 PM   #50
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The thug or the gun?
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