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Old August 9, 2008, 06:58 AM   #26
Creature
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Absolutely positively yes. I don't consider any pistol a defense pistol until it has night sights...I consider it a sport or target pistol only.
Why?
Shooting in low light conditions is very possible in a defensive situation. I don't consider plain silhouette sights, or even white dot sights, suitable for those conditions. Despite what many think, aimed shots can very well be taken during a gun fight, even if only a flash picture of your sights.

The whole "you will only use night sights in complete dark...in which case you shouldn't shoot because you cant be sure of your target" argument is a fallacy. Night sights are extremely effective in assisting in low-light and/or high-contrast shadow situations. Low light and deep shadows can happen during daylight hours because of structural recesses of enclosed spaces. I have done training in structures where I was completely at a disadvantage in sighting my pistol because I only had plain silhouette sights (yes we had flashlights, but there were times when I could not employ my flashlight). I remember saying to myself "never again". I had night sights installed on all of my personal pistols in short order after that.

To say you will never need (more like never want) night sights is limiting yourself needlessly when a very simple and effective solution exists.

So, I think the more pertinent question would be, why not?

Last edited by Creature; August 9, 2008 at 09:08 AM. Reason: I cant spell structural recess to save my life...
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Old August 9, 2008, 07:05 AM   #27
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If they are offered, I would get them on a new handgun. If not, I wouldn't concern myself. I do like some of the sights that XS offers. How often you ever shoot at night if you aren't a police officer? Let's say you are in a situation where you (Joe civilian) draw your weapon and shoot at night at a range where it mattered.... was your life really in danger? All that said, I think a lot of the new whiz bang sights are interesting, but I choose them based on day time shooting.
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Old August 9, 2008, 07:15 AM   #28
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How often you ever shoot at night if you aren't a police officer? Let's say you are in a situation where you (Joe civilian) draw your weapon and shoot at night at a range where it mattered.... was your life really in danger?
Why dont you find out how many civilian defensive confrontations/shootings occurred at night in a dark environment before you raise the question? You might be surprised at the answer.

And to your second question, I can think of several scenarios without stretching the imagination where this could easily be the case.
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Old August 9, 2008, 09:41 AM   #29
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How often you ever shoot at night if you aren't a police officer?
All the time, and "people" are not always the problem or the target. The same gun is always along, either way, no matter what might pop up.

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Let's say you are in a situation where you (Joe civilian) draw your weapon and shoot at night at a range where it mattered.... was your life really in danger?
Again, this is only a question the shooter can answer, and will have to answer to. We can pick and choose scenarios to make our specific points all day (and night ) long, but reality is, if you dont have them, I'll guarantee you'll WISH you had them the very first time you REALLY need them, and if you come through that experience, you'll soon have them on any gun you want to count on.

Just for curiosity's sake here, how many that dont like them, or seem to have an issue with them, actually ever used them in any capacity other than maybe a darkened range?


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Even with the NS you still need to find the front sight in the rear for good hits. Not always easy.
I suppose this would depend on how much you practice and the type of sights you have. This is one of the main reasons I prefer the three dots. You dont have to "find" anything, the gun comes up and there is a neat little row of glowing dots right where the gun was presented. No trying to figure out any alignment. The bullet goes where the middle dot is. Even when held in a low ready just below your line of sights, there is a small triangle of dots pointing the way the gun is looking and the front sight is always visible. As the gun comes up, you always know where the muzzle is going and as it rocks into position the triangle becomes a row of evenly spaced dots, and again, the bullet goes where the middle one is.

The so called "misalignment" issue is a non issue. You actually have to work at getting them to be improperly aligned, and when you do it, its instantly and uncomfortably noticeable.

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I prefer a laser myself. No glow to give you away.
I have to wonder if you've ever seen a laser in the dark, especially one pointed at you. Even in the daylight, they are quite bright.

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Some will even claim that putting the dot on target can keep you from having to shoot since the bad guy knows where you are aimed.
I seriously doubt they will be looking for a dot on their chest, but instead, shooting at that bright red ball in front of them.

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Sure you have to replace batteries but that is cheaper than replacing NS every 10 or so years.
I'll bet it works out to be the same or even cheaper for the night sights over time. $70 a set for night sights over 12 years....$5.83/year. what do the batteries in your CT's cost you a year?
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Old August 9, 2008, 10:46 PM   #30
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am i the only one who always uses their sights(well,front mostly)...at any range which allows you to fully present and do so?


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The so called "misalignment" issue is a non issue. You actually have to work at getting them to be improperly aligned, and when you do it, its instantly and uncomfortably noticeable.
i think we've been here before.

i'll just say that i disagree (as do many top instructors,shooters,etc).even if it isnt an issue...there is most definately no issue with contrasting front/rear sights.

...i think that was the only thing you've posted in this thread that i wasnt in agreement with though.
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Old August 10, 2008, 12:29 AM   #31
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Since half of the day is really night doing something to help put rounds on target in the "worst case" just seems like a good idea. I have seen more than one shooter come to the line in a night match and miss align three dot NS that are the same color, in the same shoot. Granted under the clock isn't nearly as stressful as real life but if they have trouble here I'd guess they would have trouble anywhere. Overall the guys who come out to these shoots are the ones who shoot a lot more than the average gun owner.

So after the fourth or fifth miss they noticed the "middle" dot was really a rear dot and that the left/right dot was really the front, but will you get that many chances in real life? And what happens to those rounds, you sure don't really know where they went. If you are going to get NS get the ones that are a different color front and rear or different shapes or both.

As for battery cost, I replace mine twice a year, just to be safe. The last time the batteries were $.50 each, on sale. Even at the corner store mark up they are only $2 each, so the worst I'm looking at is $8 a year. Of course the last ones had a use before 2012 date so I got a handful.

I don't buy into the red dot stopping someone idea. When they (bad guys) see my laser the 357mag Gold Dot will be a nano second behind it. If you use the Crimson Trace correctly you don't activate the laser until you are bringing the pistol on target. You don't walk around with it on like a beacon.

Bottom line is when the scoring is all done it's the guys using laser/light combos on top. Laser and red dot users with hand held lights fall in behind them. Guys with night sights and flashlights finish ahead of the guys with just irons. Sure the range isn't real life, and there is some overlap between the groups, but it does give you an idea of what does and doesn't work.
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Old August 29, 2008, 04:38 PM   #32
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Can't they just replace the vial of tritium?
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Old August 29, 2008, 06:24 PM   #33
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PBP, Aren't you the same penguin from this thread?
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=295610
I'm pretty sure there's only one aquatic flightless bird on this forum.

And IIRC he likes to play devils advocate
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Old August 29, 2008, 08:11 PM   #34
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Been window shopping for night sights myself.

Meprolights front aperture looks pretty slick. It is narrow, the other brands are blade type like a revolver. But not much selection for colors like pistol night sights.
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Old August 29, 2008, 11:26 PM   #35
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on an AR?...

i have the Mepro,cant complain.

green is what you want in that case anyway(being the front sight and the only sight).i wouldnt bother with the rear night sights on an AR.
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Old August 30, 2008, 01:36 AM   #36
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Its always to each his own

i have meprolight on my glock, i personally think that unless u have a light itsnot worth it, After dealing with the hodgies in the sands of greatness, at night if you need to use ur weapon its a split second decision,night sites wont help, on the other hand i chose to use a weapon light with laser, the light allows u to see them, they are unable to c u holding ur weapon out with ur arm, so if they fire they hit ur arm not heart, and the laser is for intimidation. In the real world, if you are in a civilian situation that involves you having to pull a firearm, none of htat really matters. Its your knowledge and instinct that will go from there. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. But for just shooting in low light for fun, i have trijicon front site post on my RRA and its a must, but on a pistol its 100 buks u will never get back, ads no value even though people think it does. If you want get, this is our hobby like people that Trail ride buy stuff they want but dont need.
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Old August 30, 2008, 07:24 AM   #37
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on an AR?...
I probably wouldnt put them on the rear sight on an AR, its to close to your eye to matter and most likely be annoying. With the rear peep, if youve shouldered the gun properly, you should be looking through the peep anyway, if not, you probably wont be seeing the front sight.

I do have them (Meprolights) on a couple of AK's and a shotgun and they work very well. The rear sights on both are more forward and far enough away from your eye not to be an issue. The rear dots on the AK are a tad bright and could be a tad smaller, but they work fine all the same . The shotguns dots are a little smaller and more even in apparent brightness. I'd actually like to have the shotgun size rear on my AK, but thats life.

With the AK, which also have a cowitnessed Aimpoints on them, as the rifle comes up, you see a small green "flying saucer" triangle pointing to the dot on the Aimpoint. With the shotgun, you just get the triange pointing towards where your looking until the gun snaps in, and then you have your typical three dot line.

Oh, alignment isnt an issue on the long guns either.
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Old August 30, 2008, 11:25 AM   #38
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If you take point-shooting pretty seriously and really drill it, then you MIGHT not have to use the sights at 7 yards. If you've never missed from 7 yards, though, then you probably haven't shot fast or under pressure. If you aren't a serious practicioner of point-shooting, trained in its mysterious ways, I wouldn't count on getting through a shooting encounter without using some kind of sight picture.

Now, are night sights necessary? If you might be shooting in the dark (IOW, if this is a defensive gun) then they're great. "Necessary" is a tricky idea. If you can see your sights but not your target, you're in trouble anyway. If you have a light and use it to illuminate your target, then your dark sights might (or might not) stand out as silhouettes as long as the target is lit up. A fiber-optic sight will probably gather enough light to be pretty bright under those circumstances, too.

But I like night sights, so I'm all for 'em.
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Old August 30, 2008, 01:00 PM   #39
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I probably wouldnt put them on the rear sight on an AR, its to close to your eye to matter and most likely be annoying. With the rear peep, if youve shouldered the gun properly, you should be looking through the peep anyway, if not, you probably wont be seeing the front sight.
exactly.



Quote:
Oh, alignment isnt an issue on the long guns either.


i might have to agree there.

with the stock for reference,the aperture so close to your eye,and that much length of weapon for reference and stability...

now take away the stock...push the rear sight out much further from you eye...cut down the sight radius by many times over...add 3 identical dots...
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Old August 30, 2008, 01:43 PM   #40
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It's been touched on here a bit, but I for one do not see the NEED for night sights. Most of the folks that I shoot with have them on their guns and they gave me crap (actually it was the term "Cheap" they used). When I challenged them to a Point and Shoot @ 7 and 10yrds, I found that almost all of them took the extra time to look at the sights and still fire semi slowly to acquire after each shot...which was not the drill or the point. After explaining what I wanted them to do again, they complied and understood MY reasoning behind not getting night sights. I am not sure that in a SD situation, I am going to have the time to take that aim and fire. When I drill...I drill 7 and 10yrds Point and Shoot, I am not looking for nice grouping or accuracy, heck, I am looking to put as many holes all over that silhouette as possible...y'know, more bleeding wound channels the better right? On my XD I completely blackened out the sights, just to train myself not to even try to look for the dots.
I will say though...night sights do look cool as heck!
As for Playboypenguin just playing Devils Advocate...you chose the wrong Thread to "out" him. You should have chosen the ones where he shows his vast collection of guns. Which, I believe makes his comments more out of experience than trying to banter. I personally would take his advice and opinions seriously, due to the fact that he has such vast experience with pretty much every friggin' gun out there. Just my thoughts.

Last edited by Topthis; August 30, 2008 at 01:50 PM. Reason: just adding comment
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Old August 30, 2008, 07:07 PM   #41
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why have sights at all then right?

i prefer to use those little things that they put on almost all projectile emitting devices.

...unless the target is too close to fully present.

with the right sights,it doesnt slow me down any over ignoring them.i do find it helps with accuracy though,even if only a "flash sight picture".
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Old August 30, 2008, 09:52 PM   #42
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Exactly my point...when I Point and Shoot DRILL...my sights are not necessary, so you are correct to a degree about not having sights at all, because I don't use them when I DRILL. However, my time at the range is mixed with doing some shooting @ 25yrds...just for fun and show.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:10 PM   #43
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My personal opinion is they are worth it for me on a carry gun. I actually took some friendly chastising from an ATF instructor some time back because I didn't have them. I did ok with instinctive shooting up to about 10 yards, but further than that, I really saw that those little green dots would have helped. I had just not bothered to add sights to my 22 at that time. I added them before that week of classes was up.

I see good arguments both ways and say:
Actually go shoot at night in similar environments you feel you would/could be involved in if possible. Borrow someone's with night sights also. Then make a decision based on your personal feelings.

Again, I would say not a MUST, but for me.... a big plus.
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Old August 31, 2008, 08:14 AM   #44
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Night sights allow a shooter to more quickly and accurately sight (front sight being the most important) a gun in very low to no light conditions. We are all required to properly identify the potential threat and what is behind it, so a quality tactical flashlight is probably more important. For night sights to be optimal, many find darkening the rears with a black permanent marker or contrasting rears further improves their use.

I would highly reccomend taking a night shooting course that incorporates the proper use of light and sight options. Too many people spend money on stuff, not training; it should be the reverse. I've seen many great range shooters and hunters humbled during a night shooting course.

Most self defense encounters are probably not going require any sighting, just point shooting, so one could argue the need for any sights.

Most shootings occur at night, often during the hours when most are at home and in bed, any advantage you can give yourself makes sense.

My bias is in favor of night training (you can simulate some of this with home dry fire drills) good tatical light and night sights.

Before laying down any hard earned money, try to take a night shooting course where you can explore what might be best for you - proper small tatical flashlight, night sights, laser, red-dot, or none of these. Proper defense ammunition with a low muzzle flash is another importan piece of the puzzle.

You might find "Night Master, "low light" shooting & flashlight techniques" by Bill Wilson and Ken Hackanthorn, albeit a little dated, very worthwhile. It takes a novice or above shooter, through the various night challenges and solutions. I'd spend money on this before anything but an actual night course.

Link provided for the DVD; or web search with many results http://gunvideo.com/pgroup_descrip/63/4972/
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Old September 1, 2008, 08:42 AM   #45
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No.
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Old September 10, 2008, 10:14 AM   #46
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I will hop on this one. A night sight on a rifle: definitely at least a front sight. On a pistol, I don't think so. Spend that hundred plus dollars on ammo in a pistol that really and truly fits your hand. Do some point shooting (or body indexed shooting) with your gun. You should be able to get COM hits out to about 7 yards.

If you don't practice often, then yeah night sights are a good idea on a defensive pistol.

But on a serious rifle, they are a must. even if you have a rock solid eotech, aimpoint or something different. At night the farthest I will make solid point shooting rifle hits is about 15-25 yards without a sight.
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Old September 10, 2008, 07:11 PM   #47
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You should be able to get COM hits out to about 7 yards.
What about further?

You can easily double or triple that distance with night sights on the pistol.

I practice without sights on a fairly regular basis too, and while the techniques do have their place, and do work, they are not very reliable much past what your limits are. In the dark, where you can identify enough of an outline to pick a target, or in cases where its still light enough to see the target, but due to lighting issues, cant see your sights on the target, the night sights will still allow you to hit what your "aiming" at.

Quote:
At night the farthest I will make solid point shooting rifle hits is about 15-25 yards without a sight.
I'd like to watch in the daylight.
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Old September 20, 2008, 10:48 PM   #48
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I had TFO's installed on my XD..... Well worth the $100 w/install.

Id recomend going with bi colors.... green front and yellow rear, much easier to distinguish than same color front and rear.
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Old September 20, 2008, 11:10 PM   #49
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Didn't read any of the other posts, but ill just give the OP my opinion real quick.

Night sights are good to have, but to be honest, I would rather spend the money on a weaponlight first. After all, night sights arent going to illuminate your target, and when you have a weapon light blinding the intruder, or perp, or whatever the case is, you should be able to see the shadow of your sights so you can shoot the BG fairly accurately.

The operational philosophy of night firing is:
1: NAVIGATE
2: LOCATE
3: IDENTIFY
4: ENGAGE

How can you successfully do ANY of those, aside from the last one if you can't see? Night sights will light up your sights, nothing else.

In short, spend the money on a weaponlight if you have a tac rail first, then get night sights if you so desire.
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Old September 20, 2008, 11:28 PM   #50
luvsasmith
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Just a thought

First, my carry gun has Night Sights on it. I didn't install them or buy the weapon because of them. I'm on the fence. I just see myself clearing my house in the middle of the night, coming to two parallel door openings and choosing the one going down the stairs. Meanwhile the BG is in my hall bathroom locating my head by the nighties on my barrel.

Then again that's why I bought my Mossberg 12 ga 18" pumper.
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