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Old August 12, 2008, 10:09 PM   #51
Erik
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Don't under estimate those kids. My boys figured out high-low ambushes and my back hasn't been quite the same since.
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Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
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Old August 13, 2008, 06:11 AM   #52
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I have finally figured out that I simply cannot play MMA ground games with them. I have been kicked in the groin, elbowed in the eye, knee on fingers, and the worst was a knee to the cheek bone. Forty year old body takes days for the aching to stop.

I wrestled a coworker and we ended up paying for a new showcase. It was pretty close despite me giving up 15 years and 30 pounds. I was hurting for a week.....he was ready for round two the next day LOL.

Definitely fun but my body just can't Handel the rigors of it.
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Old August 13, 2008, 01:19 PM   #53
David Armstrong
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In reply to david armstrong... Is it really wrong or were your techniques just differant.
Some of both. Lots of times the issue is just "different." But sometimes yes, it is just flat "wrong" to do it that way. You may still be able to accomplish the goal, but it is still the wrong way. My $.02.
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Old August 13, 2008, 01:28 PM   #54
David Armstrong
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Can you give a brief listing of what you learned at that first session and what they corrected you on?
As it has been 20+ years and lots of classes, probably not. Some things that really leap out, though, without actually remembering if it was first classes or later on, are a much better draw stroke with the handgun, for example, and a lot of rifle manipulation things with the long gun.
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Would you have felt the same if you already knew and practiced the curriculum of that first school?
Probably, but that is speculation. How would you know the curriculum and proper practice of the school without going to the school? Contrary to what many seem to think, reading a book, watching a video, or talking about it with somebody else is not the same.
Quote:
I can do it all ....
Given your obviously limited knowledge of DGUs and tactics as demonstrated in previous posts, you can't do it all, etc. etc. That is my point. I could do it all. That is, I thought I could do it all until I found out that I really couldn't do it all. In fact, the more I learn the more I realize how much more there is to learn.

Quote:
The late Jim Cirillo did just fine in gunfights with only competition and lowly Police Pistol Combat at that.
That is a gross misstatement. Jim did far more than "only competition" to prepare himself for gunfights. Competition was only one part of the picture, not the only part.
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I have noticed however that if you don't have FOF training you are considered not prepared for a gun fight. I disagree with this as did legendary gun fight survivor Cirillo.
You have this outrageous habit of taking things out of context and/or adding 1+1 and getting 97. Jim did NOT disagree with FoF training, he advocated it quite strongly. And while they didn't have the tools to do things the way we do now, Jim also trained using the techniques available at the time to simulate shooting incidents as closely as possible.
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Old August 13, 2008, 04:02 PM   #55
threegun
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David, My point was that Jim credited his gunfight success with his competitive experience . If he was successful in a gunfight and felt that his success was due to his competitive experience then Jim could not have thought that only FOF trained fellows are prepared for a gun fight. He had to have thought that competitive training was enough to win a gunfight. Since it carried him through.

Jim also looked for every edge he could and there is no doubt that he would push for higher training.

Quote:
Given your obviously limited knowledge of DGUs and tactics as demonstrated in previous posts, you can't do it all,
With all due respect David you have no idea of what I know or don't know with regard to tactics. Just because I don't allow statistics to guide my every move, something you obviously can't resist doing, doesn't mean I don't understand them. I never argued against your stats only your religious adherence to those stats. BTW since the stats you tout suggest that I will probably never need to stop a determined attacker, you should be consistent and say that I don't need the training. The same stats that cause you to recommend puny calibers as primary.

When I say I can do it all it doesn't mean I have done it all. Deal with what was said not with what you think was said.....sound familiar? You name the firearm excersise....guess what David I can do it.

Thanks for the tip on gun manipulation and draw stroke.
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Old August 13, 2008, 04:12 PM   #56
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Also I didn't say Cirillo disagreed with FOF training. My nasty habit of understanding what was said instead of what you think was said is rubbing off. I said that Cirillo would disagree that one needed FOF to be prepared for a gunfight. Cirillo said competition shooter made great stakeout men because when the poop hit the fan they knew how to shoot under pressure. He credited comp shooting with gunfight survival.
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Old August 13, 2008, 05:54 PM   #57
David Armstrong
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Quote:
David, My point was that Jim credited his gunfight success with his competitive experience .
And my point is that your point is not correct. Jim credited part of his gunfight success to competition, not the whole thing. His competition probably wouldn't have made much difference if he also hadn't practiced a lot, had the right mindset, and several other factors.
Quote:
With all due respect David you have no idea of what I know or don't know with regard to tactics.
With all due respect, I've seen what you have said and advocated hear and in other places, and I base my comments on that. If you actually do have a understanding of the issues I have not seen it reflected in your writings.
Quote:
Just because I don't allow statistics to guide my every move, something you obviously can't resist doing, doesn't mean I don't understand them.
Sigh. For about the 100th time, no, I don't allow statisitics to guide my every move. They are one factor that I consider in my decision making process. For you to continue to state otherwise is dishonest.
Quote:
you should be consistent and say that I don't need the training.
Whether you need the training or not is something I have not addressed. I have said that you would learn something by taking the training. I have been consistent in suggesting that you need to learn something about this stuff if you are going to talk about it so much.
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The same stats that cause you to recommend puny calibers as primary.
Sigh. Once again, for about the 100th time, I do not recommend puny calibers as primary. For you to continue to say otherwise is dishonest.
Quote:
When I say I can do it all it doesn't mean I have done it all. Deal with what was said not with what you think was said.....sound familiar?
Ummm, I almost hate to do this, but I did not say that you had done it all, I said that you can't do it all. Deal with what was said, not what you think was said.
Quote:
You name the firearm excersise....guess what David I can do it.
Well gosh, I guess that settles it. Pax was right: "Save your money. You wouldn't learn a thing in class. Guys who go in knowing it all never do."
Quote:
I said that Cirillo would disagree that one needed FOF to be prepared for a gunfight.
And again you would be wrong. Jim strongly supported FoF as gunfight prep. Again, you might want to quit trying to use little bits and snippets of things when you make these claims of yours and instead try to get the full picture.
Quote:
He credited comp shooting with gunfight survival.
As several people have already told you, that is not correct. Competition was only one notch in a big wheel. For you to continue to claim these beliefs and ideas as Jim's that he would strongly disagree with is worse than dishonest, and is frankly rather insulting to those of us who actually knew him and talked with him and were trained by him.
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Old August 13, 2008, 06:40 PM   #58
mikejonestkd
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Just spent 15 minutes reading this thread from start to finish.

My advice? Save your money.

Pax said it best on page one, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to the OP at all. After over 20 years of teaching the martial arts I recognize the OP's mindset. he already has the tools and mindset that he feels he needs.
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Old August 13, 2008, 11:02 PM   #59
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Closed for deteriorating civility -- plus the thread has reached the point of diminishing returns.

Thanks for the good conversation, everyone.

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