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Old August 9, 2008, 05:27 AM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
I ask because I out perform friends, two of which have attended multiple expensive shooting schools, in every exercises.
Quote:
They are excellent shooters but you are right perhaps they stink compared to professional instructors.
Let's see...they are "excellent" shooters, but you outperform them in every exercises, so that must make you an amazing shooter...and yet they potentially stink (your word) compared to professional instructors.

I will say it again. I think you are setting your standards too low. What you are suggesting as "excellent" sounds mediocre at best.

Case and point, what I considered to be really good shooting for me 5 years ago is not really good shooting for me now. Such evaluative standards are often quite fluid.
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Old August 9, 2008, 10:11 AM   #27
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threegun,

My apologies. I did not realize I was assuming. I was reacting to your first post, where you said:

Quote:
I ask because I out perform friends, two of which have attended multiple expensive shooting schools, in every exercises.
Others have pointed out that your friends may not be the best yardstick. I'll go one step further and say that your friends probably shoot better than they would shoot if they hadn't had that formal training. If they started with less natural talent than you, or if they have practiced significantly less than you, their trained shooting might still fall behind your natural talent. But that doesn't mean that you couldn't improve past that point, only that they haven't done so yet.

And my assumption that you already know how to shoot also came from this post, where you said:

Quote:
Say for example I run my LRRF drill. I draw, run, and fire in the direction my partner calls until he changes my direction either left, right, rear, or forward. I can't figure what bad habits could be identified so long as my grip is proper and handling safe.
There's an assumption about your own ability somewhere in there...

And I was reacting to this post, where you said:

Quote:
Now I can afford to attend but I don't feel that I will learn enough to justify the cost.
And to this comment:

Quote:
After years of shooting threegun matches I have definitely learned to chew gum and walk at the same time.
Good. (I'm steadily resisting the temptation to open up the ancient and never-to-be-settled discussion about whether competition is really good preparation for self defense. Truly? Competition shooters usually shoot better than non-competition shooters, and often have better gun handling skills. But their mindset tends to go to pot, and they often have ingrained dangerous habits -- not dangerous gun handling habits, for they're usually exceptionally safe gun handlers -- but dangerous physical habits like barely getting halfheartedly behind cover.)

And then you posted:

Quote:
I can do it all from engaging multiple targets to shooting on the move. From what to do if the gun malfunctions to what to do if the bullets fail to stop. Transitioning from one platform to another willingly and after a failure. From weapon retention to point shooting. I run scenario based drills also. Plus much more that I can't think of now.
So I don't really think I was assuming much when I said you'd go into a class knowing it all. From all the above, it sure sounds as if you are convinced you already know everything you need to know.

So why in the world would you pay good money to have an instructor tell you that you don't?

Quote:
Whats missing beside the critiquing of any bad habits or time consuming unnecessary movements?
Seriously and I am not being sarcastic here. This is exactly analogous to a cook asking her guests: "Now, what's wrong with the meal, except for the little bit of poison I mixed into the main dish and the pile of dirt-covered rocks I put on your plates alongside it?"

The presence of bad habits = danger = poison.

The presence of time consuming unnecessary movements = stuff you actively do not want = dirt-covered rocks on your dinner plate.

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Old August 9, 2008, 01:16 PM   #28
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Interesting thread...

I am a firm believer that you're never too smart or too dumb to learn somrthing new. Just make sure that you express your needs better to the instructor. He can't give you what you want if you can't express to him/her what you need. Good Luck!!!
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Old August 10, 2008, 06:08 AM   #29
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PAX, I got you. I shoot competitions for fun. I have used my carry gun (although I just bought a smith custom PPC 9mm) or a slightly modified version of it for every competition except one ( I took first place A division in a PPC match with my new smithy). I'm not one of those guys who pours himself into the competitive world. For me its basically to expose myself to shooting under pressure. Most of my shoot/gun handling time is spent focusing on developing the skills and tactics to survive a shootout.

Were on Earth did you guys gather that I think that I will learn nothing from a training course offered by a professional instructor? I'm just trying to determine if I will learn enough to justify the cost since I have been using much of the same on my own for years. Heck the fact that I even posed the original question should be an indicator that I am willing to learn........that alone shoots holes (pardon the pun) in the "he knows it all" claims.

I just don't want to pay a thousand bucks to do what I already do. i was hoping that you guys would post some of what stood out to you when you actually took a course. Perhaps list some of the activities that really opened your eyes. I'm not very good with using words to get a point across but I wasn't trying to sound snobby or know it all ish.

Double Naught,
Quote:
I will say it again. I think you are setting your standards too low. What you are suggesting as "excellent" sounds mediocre at best.
I really curious as to how you can make a judgment either way. At least I can base my statement on what I have seen.

To all, I apologize if I have ruffled any feathers as it wasn't my intention. I'm just a cheap old pawn broker wanting to squeeze as much as I can from every penny.
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Old August 10, 2008, 03:43 PM   #30
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OK, cutting past everything, much of it a good read, I'll answer off of the 1st post:

"If you obtained all the information taught (much from folks who actually attended) would the course still be worth the money? Why?"

Yes, the course would still be worth the money, because it isn't the material but the instruction of the material that matters.

"Could I gain mentally or perhaps gain by an instructor pointing out any quirks?"

Yes, end of any serious discussion.

The question as to what level and type of training would be best suit you is almost impossible to answer in the forums though, unfortunately. Planning to walk before running is sound, even for those convinced of that they run well; and maybe they are correct. After all, it is better to cover familiar ground in an environment where you can learn something than to find yourself in an environment where the material and the ability to work within expectations is beyond you. Then there are issues of fit, or lack of it, but that can be even more complicated, as many a person doesn't know or want to admit where they do not belong. In those cases, hope for adequate vetting; when performed correctly it protects both the integrity of the class and the checkbook. Case in point, I recently attended training where someone had to... disenroll. An expensive and time consuming prospect, to be sure.
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Old August 10, 2008, 08:23 PM   #31
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Eric, Thanks for answering without the not so nice comments. Could you give this one a whirl?

Quote:
i was hoping that you guys would post some of what stood out to you when you actually took a course. Perhaps list some of the activities that really opened your eyes.
Provided the training you attended was of the self defense with firearms type.
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Old August 10, 2008, 10:00 PM   #32
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Something you don't learn at a match or just a gun handling / nonreaction - nonintelligent class.

1. Do you freeze with a live opponent? I've seen a 'martial' artist expert get knocked on his ass as he couldn't respond effectively or go for his gun when he should of. Seen it a few times.

2. Be in a simulated incident with a gun with a jam built in to the situation. Have to clear under pressure.

3. Come around a corner and face 4 opponents - nice lesson on not checking where you are going.

4. Dealing with intense police presence after a shoot - with real, big, professional and intimidating police dealing with you - when you are being told to breathe as you are turning blue.

I could list a few more that are more oriented towards using your brain, facing stress, etc.

That's what I get out of training for 'gun fight' survival as compared to competition or pure gun handling skills exercises (which I love also).
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Old August 10, 2008, 11:42 PM   #33
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"Eric, Thanks for answering without the not so nice comments. Could you give this one a whirl?"

No problem and I'll take a stab at it.

"I was hoping that you guys would post some of what stood out to you when you actually took a course. Perhaps list some of the activities that really opened your eyes."

You really shouldn't get too hung up on "the activities." There are lots of top tier athletes, and they all have (1) a coach, if not several, and (2) progressive training routines which include building from and re-examining their fundementals as necessary. And most of those activities are useless without someone assisting in providing artificial stress to some degree. Who said, "training without stress is excercise?" I'm not sure, but I agree.

Take swimming. Pretty simple training, right? But to hear an olympian explain the nuances of finger placement as she dives into the water or the important of one kicking rhythm vs. anothor you wouldn't necessarily find it so.
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Old August 11, 2008, 05:46 AM   #34
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Glenn,
Quote:
Do you freeze with a live opponent?
I haven't been in a gun fight (thankfully). The time I thought it was going to happen I reacted.....drew and almost fired.

Quote:
Be in a simulated incident with a gun with a jam built in to the situation. Have to clear under pressure.
Regularly however only while running drills. Also practiced forced transition from pistol to rifle and visa versa. The only pressure was getting mocked by friends though.

Quote:
Come around a corner and face 4 opponents - nice lesson on not checking where you are going.
So far I have had exquisite situational awareness. Haven't done any surprise attacks though.

I get your drift though. Unfortunately I can't simulate those things on my own. If my buddies attacked me I would start laughing as it just wouldn't seem right. Seems if I knew it was fake it wouldn't be so helpful. If it caused pain it would be very difficult to remain civil. Thats one reason I hate to spar.

Thanks for focusing my mind on what else is offered in the formal courses.

Erik, Thanks.
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Old August 11, 2008, 05:47 AM   #35
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Glenn, If you have more brain training and some time please post them.
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Old August 11, 2008, 10:01 AM   #36
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ThreeGun: If you want brain or Mental Training ( which I believe is 90% of shooting) Go to the CMP website and check out their book store. They have several books on shooting and mental training, put out by the Army Marksmanship Unit. The ISU (International Shooting Union) is big on mental training. CMP has several books on this subject and are reasonably priced. like about $6.95 on the average.

One thing you dont want to forget is continuing training in the fundamentals. Practice Bullseye Pistol (for pistol) and High Power for rifle. Keep your fundamentals while you play with your combat or defence type training.

Don't scorn at conventional target shooting (bullseye and high power rifle). You go to the range with these guys, they'll eat your lunch at your combat game.

Its like all these sniper rifle shooting fellows and their sub minute groups. The 10-X ring on the high power target is about 2 mins. I've been shooting highpower for 30 years, I've seen few clean 600 or 1000 yard. When the rubber meets the road, its what the actual target tells you, not what you get from a bench with sandbagged rifles.

Same with Bullseye Pistol. Try shootng the NRA Slow fire 50 yard target. Its a bit smaller then your combat style targets fired at 7-15 yards.

In my younger days as a police officer. We use to go out for coffee after shift. I picked the best pistol shooter on our shift and challenged him to shoot to see who pays coffee. I bought a hell of a lot of coffee, but in the end he was buying the coffee.

To keep myself humbe, I shoot the NRA 50 yard SF target with my little 642 pocket pistol. Do I do any good, NOPE, but it sure tighten's my groups at 15 yards with that little revolver.

Learn the mental aspect. Don't ever let up on the fundamentals.

I have problems with a lot of the PRIVATE Shooting Schools, but that warrants another Topic.
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Old August 11, 2008, 10:34 AM   #37
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The thing about 'brain training' is that almost every source I know from different disciplines and situations is that emergency training needs to be practiced in realistic simulation.

That is part and parcel of also practicing the fundamentals of gun handling as folks have pointed out.

One can read every book and watch every video.

I think we are going nowhere in this discussion.

For a complete package you need:

1. The basic and advanced technical skills
2. A solid knowledge base that can be gained from lectures, classes, books and videos.
3. Testing on the basics and advanced skills. While most folks think that one needs expert opinion beyond self-evaluation, that isn't getting through.
3. Experience and testing in as close to the end game scenario as possible. The end game scenario - what is that? It seems that 3G wants to claim that competition is sufficient while that flies in the face of what we know about training.

So that's my take on 'brain training'.
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Old August 11, 2008, 05:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
It seems that 3G wants to claim that competition is sufficient while that flies in the face of what we know about training.
The late Jim Cirillo did just fine in gunfights with only competition and lowly Police Pistol Combat at that.

Quote from Massad Ayoob as he talked about Cirillo.....
Quote:
He noted hunters made good stakeout men, not because they were accustomed to shooting for blood so much as because they were accustomed to waiting patiently and keeping their focus as they looked for certain signs. Best of all, he said, were the hunters who were also competition shooters, because when the gunfire started, shooting under pressure was already second nature for them.
Jim Cirillo's first gunfight....again quoting Ayoob on Cirillo...
Quote:
Jim told me at the beginning of the fight he was so scared his tongue was stuck to the roof of his mouth; but when his .38 came up and he saw a sight picture, a strange calm seemed to descend upon him, as if something was telling him he was in his world, on his tuff, now. Automatic pilot took over as his finger rolled the trigger, the way it did in PPC matches, of which he had already won so many
Apparently Jim Cirillo didn't get the memo that competition was not sufficient Glenn.
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Old August 11, 2008, 06:30 PM   #39
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Citing the legendary few who excellend in spite of their poor training as proof that training is not necessary is a straw man argument. Legendary few who often argued and participated the rest of their lives to bring about improvements in training, by the way. Jim Cirillo certainly did.

"Apparently Jim Cirillo didn't get the memo that competition was not sufficient Glenn."

Apparently he did, given what he wrote and taught; i.e. he didn't repackage PPC and competitive materials, that is for certain.
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Old August 11, 2008, 07:19 PM   #40
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You say he excelled despite his poor training.....he on the other hand says he excelled because of his competitive training.

He went on to say that guys who hunted and competed were also well suited for stakeout work and shooting it out.

Sure he sought better training and basically anything that would give him and his comrades an edge. I'm not on a high risk stake out team and I'm always looking for an edge. Problem is I don't make a living teaching this stuff nor do I have department funds to spend on my training. I must select what training will give me the most bang for my buck.

I have noticed however that if you don't have FOF training you are considered not prepared for a gun fight. I disagree with this as did legendary gun fight survivor Cirillo. The weight of his disagreement backed by 17 shootouts. Perhaps FOF will make one better but don't poop on those who have other forms of shooting under pressure.

Besides when you know that the 4 guys attacking you are not going to hurt you....much LOL.........it just isn't the same.
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Old August 11, 2008, 11:00 PM   #41
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This is probably a thread drift. But it is your thread.

Yes, he excelled despite his poor training. Law enforcement training circa the time frame he received it coupled with the target training equaling "poor." It was Jim Cirillo, not Jim Cirillo's training, in a nut shell.

And... his second career was as a trainer; first for the feds, then later for the private sector. Where (again) his niche was a bit more than relating how "competitive training" coupled with basic police training can carry the day; "a bit more" being a gross understatement. He was practically an icon for year at FLETC, instructing there and being involved in course developement from 1976-1991 iirc.

If you want insight into what Jim Cirillo thought about winning gun fights, look to the training programs he had a hand in, whether branded his own or some government agency's programs.

Research it. They didn't/don't resemble repackaged target training programs:

An emphasis on mindset.
An emphasis on tactics.
A sight continuum, though he didn't call it that.
Downed defender/officer drills.
Gun handling skills.
Emphasis on integration of skill sets.
Etc.

He's been described as dated but with a wealth of general knowledge. I recommend focusing on the word "wealth" and using the word "dated" to place some of his work in context.

Note he's not exactly the average gamer or target shooter:
http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm?b...tid=1155072970

If you think a warrior like Jim Cirillo wouldn't approve of the modern advances in the field of training, advances built on his work, well... I humbly submit that you'd be mistaken.
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Old August 11, 2008, 11:14 PM   #42
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Which brings us back to: Yes, end of any serious discussion.

You should invest in quality training. Quality training is often relative to the shooter, and vice versa. But... You'll be selling yourself short to avoid it because you might be beyond it. "It" being defined as a given course. Because you'll get far more from instruction than you will from media. Invest in classes, and once xompetency is achieved an proven, the media can help flesh things out.
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Old August 12, 2008, 06:27 AM   #43
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Erik, Like you, I am confident that Cirillo would have taken kindly to advanced training offered these days. I'm not arguing that this stuff doesn't help make one better. I'm simply rebutting the line of thinking here on TFL by some that only FOF training will suffice in gunfight preparation.

Quote:
It seems that 3G wants to claim that competition is sufficient while that flies in the face of what we know about training.
See here Glenn takes a jab at me. I used Cirillo because of the weight given his statements by all the gunfights he survived. He claims competition was sufficient...so who am I and better yet who is Glenn to say otherwise.

Also you keep on saying that Cirillo survived and excelled despite his training when the man himself said that he survived because of his competitive experience. He clearly articulated how frightened he was making him human. He experienced a mental phenomenon that many of us will experience in some form on judgment day. He went into auto pilot mode and reverted to his competitive experience which was enough to carry the day.....17 times.....and against multiple foes on occasion.

I'm all for more advanced training. I started this post to figure out if it would be worth the money because I already use advanced tactics in practice. It seems that most of you feel that I would benefit a bunch. Based on the limited things posted I think I'll benefit but not enough to justify the costs. An excess of 2000 bucks with ammo and travel expenses.
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Old August 12, 2008, 09:21 AM   #44
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FOF the crucible of serious training; affording trainers and practitioners the opportunity to test and evaluate a broad spectrum of skill sets, abilities, and assumptions before it is written into police and after action reports. Many a participant has been forced to accept realities they denied or where unaware of, and adjust as necessary. Many a trainer has beenf orced to acecpt the realities they denied or where unaware of about what they were teaching; some adjust, some do not. It is the scrimaging of the training world prior to the actual game, in a sense.

On Cirillo: There is much more to Jim Cirillo's notions of what makes for an adequately prepared gunfighter than participation in comptetive shooting. Again, if you want insight into what Jim Cirillo thought about winning gun fights, look to the training programs he had a hand in, whether branded his own or some government agency's programs.

Look, I understand the realities of financial constraints, and the thought process that you're going through: evaluating if the gains will be worth the expenditures of time and money. Most people here do. It comes back to the net - it is almost impossible to recommend trainers and courses without an understanding of where a given person is at mentally, physically, knolwedge, skill, and abilty wise. (And that's just the half of it.)
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Old August 12, 2008, 10:06 AM   #45
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Quote:
I used Cirillo because of the weight given his statements by all the gunfights he survived. He claims competition was sufficient...so who am I and better yet who is Glenn to say otherwise.
Cirillo NEVER claimed competition was sufficient.

He claimed it was necessary.

There is a huge difference between those two.

Jim devoted the greater part of his life to training others how to survive lethal encounters. He did not do this for the joy of it (though he was one of the most joyful people I ever met). He did it because he thought professional training was a necessary and essential compoenent of equipping people to survive criminal attacks.

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Old August 12, 2008, 10:15 AM   #46
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I think a school like Thunder Ranch would be worth the money. You may know alot already but you will definitely pick up more useful things.

But, if you never go, just keep training hard yourself and learning from other resources. I would imagine that there are alot great shooters out there that have not attended schools.
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Old August 12, 2008, 03:31 PM   #47
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Pax,

Quote:
Cirillo NEVER claimed competition was sufficient
You are correct I miss spoke. He did specifically cite his competitive experience with helping him not only survive but win his first gun fight. That would suggest to me that competition was sufficient in this case for a man to win a gun fight. I'm horrible with writing as you can see.

He also said that the stress of shooting competitively made shooting for life and limb much easier.


Erik, When you attend a FOF course do you think you might die? Do you think you might be seriously injured? How then can we expect FOF to rise to the pressure of real life? Is FOF similar to sparring in boxing & karate? If it is similar then it wouldn't rise to the level of competition (for me anyway) and definitely wouldn't rise to the level of a real fight.

I was always more nervous before a competition than any sparring practice. I can't imagine FOF being opposite. At a shooting match I get so nervous that I literally have to used the bathroom as I wait my turn. I didn't feel that nervous when we would run flurries in Karate......when half the class attacks one student. I did get the crud beat out of me though.
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Old August 12, 2008, 03:32 PM   #48
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BDS32, Thanks.....I'm gonna keep training until my bones won't let me LOL.
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Old August 12, 2008, 06:03 PM   #49
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3G,
FOF training runs the gamut from mild to extreme, aimed at students across a wide specrum of physical and technical ability, as with most other training disciplines. Matching yourself to the environment is just as important here as with any other dicipline.

Just a taste of the types of things which help seperate the theoretical, or the gaming, from the practical. Conversely, just the types of things which prove the theoretical and the gaming as practical.

Every one of these could include non-lethal marking weapons, though they don't necessarily have to, by the way.

http://www.vimeo.com/1072283

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BpEzI7mleY

http://www.usshootingacademy.com/tra...urse.aspx?id=9

But... I understand that gun-centric folks frequently echew such stuff, and it certainly isn't for everyone.
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Old August 12, 2008, 07:23 PM   #50
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If I was a LEO I would definitely dabble deeper into MMA.

The little bit of training I get now is from my kids (which they get from karate class one night a week). The last session my 12 year old accidentally elbowed me on the lower eyebrow ridge producing a grape sized knot that soon turned into a shiner. I was made fun of for a week. Daddy beaten up by a 12 year old. Really it was accidental.
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