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Old July 23, 2008, 12:15 PM   #1
Firepower!
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458, 404, 416, 375, 338, and others.

Can some one comment on power and effective range for the big bores such as:
458
404
416
375
338
600 Nitro
700 Nitro
577 TRex

Please comment on the ones you have experienced.

Thanks.
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Old July 23, 2008, 01:02 PM   #2
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Without going into a lot of detail, the larger bore rifles are not long-range propositions. The 338 (I assume you mean the WinMag here) is a fine cartridge, capable of 500 -600 yds accuracy. The 375 (again, I am assuming you mean H&H) is a fine cartridge, and in the hands of a skilled shooter will be a 300-400 yds cartridge. I have owned and fired both, they are both very fine cartridges, but they come with a healthy bit of recoil.

The others are pretty much short-range rounds, suited for taking on and stopping things like Cape buffalo, hippo, rhinos, and elephant. Trajectory limitations due to bullet profile typically put them into the 200 yds category, but I know one guy who regularly shot his 458 at the 400 yds gong. Of course, it looked like he was aiming for the moon, but he was very good with it. 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffreys are both early 20th century cartridges, originally chambered in square-bridge Mauser bolt-action rifles in order to keep the cost of a hunter's big game rifles down, and intended for taking out large animals quickly. The newer 416 Remington was designed to replicate 416 Rigby performance, but allow chambering in a more readily available rifle like the Rem 700.

600 NE was offered as a more powerful option to the 577 NE in double rifles of the early 20th century, however the 577 was considered a better round. 700 NE and 577 T Rex are both newer cartridges, recently designed to be the biggest, baddest big game rifle in existence, and are both custom double rifle chamberings.
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Old July 23, 2008, 01:17 PM   #3
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The effective range of any round is dependant on the shooter

It is simply a matter of how well the shooter knows the trajectory, and how well they can judge wind drift.

Now the "effective range" for cartridges as generally spoken of in conversation is how well the average shooter can use a particular rifle/ammo combination. About a hundred years ago, 1,000 yard matches were shot with large bore black powder rifles and iron sights. Yet today, most would consider the maximum range for these kinds of rounds to be a couple of hundred yards, if that.

The rounds you named are not optimized for long range shooting, but that doesn't mean that in the hands of someone who really knows what they are doing that long range shots are not possible, they are.

Yes, it is more difficult to compensate for 15 feet of drop than it is for 5 feet, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
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Old July 23, 2008, 01:24 PM   #4
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id say if you are looking for a big bore go with the 338 win mag or the 375 h&h. the ammo is easy to find and they will take down anything in n. america.
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Old July 23, 2008, 02:52 PM   #5
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I can comment on 45-70 heavy, 375 H&H ( Federal "safari" loads with Trophy Bonded Bear Claws ), & 338 Win Mag ( Federal "safari" loads with Trophy Bonded Bear Claws...

my old rifle range backstop used to sit at 200 yards, & was an old chest freezer roughly 2' thick, by 6' wide, which was stuffed as solidly with sheet rock as I could get it...

at 200 yards, both cartridges out of matching Browning stainless stalkers ( 338 had a 2" longer barrel ), both equiped with BOSS systems, were MOA accurate... the major difference was the 338 consistantly went out the back side of the freezer the 375 never did...

I love both... but they are pretty expensive to shoot...

338...



375...



BTW... 416 is on my "to buy" list... still wrangling if I should do the Remington or the Rigby yet though... can't see myself with a 40 cal... if I were doing another from that group ( though not listed ) it would be the 8mm Magnum...
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Old July 23, 2008, 03:14 PM   #6
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Oh, I don't know about that, Scorch, I've killed fleas at 97,000,000 meters with my 5.794 Nitro Rex Express Magnum....

OK, enough with the silliness.

Power of all is ample, depending on what you're hunting with it.

If you're hunting an elephant that wants to turn you into pate, then power might be lacking.

The .338 and .375 are fine plains rifles, as Scorch notes.

The .375 has been used very successfully as the "one gun battery" for everything from little antelope to B&C trophy elephants. Were I facing an elephant, though, I'd want the .416.
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Old July 23, 2008, 03:52 PM   #7
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I just shot a 458 Lott, and, a .510 Van Horn.

I see no reason either caliber couldn't be loaded with 300 grain bullets, moving around 2700 fps, for one very effective long range plains game gun. I think the Lott is perhaps the best of the bunch, since the added case capacity, with a light bullet, gives it more then a couple hundred feet a second over the 375, with the same weight bullet. Or, the 416 has been sort of the Holy Grail in a sense, since with it's 400 grain bullet, at 2400 fps, it pretty much is both very flat, and, hits like a big bore.
The Lott could easily be loaded to that spec, and, you'd get more rounds in the magazine...

Keep in mind my gunsmiths are both taking 9.3 x 62 and 9.3 x 74R's to Africa next year, for plains game, and, both those calibers, with proper placement, are as effective as the 375, without the recoil.

I guess the 286 grain 9.3 bullet is very flat out to 200 yards...
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Old July 23, 2008, 04:24 PM   #8
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interestingly enough... it appears as if these caliber of rifles are fewer & further between than I had hoped...

I just spent a 1/2 hour bouncing around a few sites looking for production magnum big bore rifles in some of these calibers...

amaizingly, Remington ( at least according to the "choose a rifle by caliber site" ) I was just on, no longer builds a production rifle in 416 Remington, or 8mm Remington Magnum ???

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...y_calibers.asp

I'm not sold on the Remington only, but thought since thier name was attached to those cartridges, they would be the 1st place to look... I would prefer a stainless action on my "hunting" rifles... CZ still builds some nice rifles... but nothing in stainless

what else is out there in these calibers in stainless synthetic, or composite guns that doesn't cost an arm & a leg ???
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Old July 23, 2008, 04:50 PM   #9
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I've no experience with the rest, But I have a 416 Rigby, 375 H&H, 458 WM, and 338.

I really havent done much long range shooting with the 416, but I would think its almost up there with the 375, not quite but close (as far as long range goes). The 338 in a good mid size long range cart, but my hands down favorite in the 375H&H.

The 270 Grn shoots as fast and flat as the '06 with 180 grains. And I've done a lot of 1000 yard shooting using '06 with 175-180 SMKs. The problem is, except for the 338, no one to my knowledge makes a long range match bullet in any of the above except the 338.

If it wasn't for recoil, I would like to try the 375 at 1000 yard matches. But as I get old and febal, I dont like my 300 WM 1000 yard gun anymore. I can't lay out there and shoot 1000 yards with mags any more where you have to fire 100 rounds a day during most 1000 yeard matches.

I hunt elk above temberline where its pretty open. Thats where the 375 shines. Like I said, it shoots as flat and fast as the '06, yet has the umph to do its job at 500-600 yards.

JMHO
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Old July 23, 2008, 05:32 PM   #10
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Big bores

I own .375 H&H (Winchester Super Express) and a .416 Rigby (Ruger #1 Tropical). In terms of power, as most of the others on the list, either will take anything that walks if used by someone who knows what he or she is doing.
I have not hunted with either, not needing to use cartridges that produce 4000ft.lbs of energy (.375) or 5000ft.lbs. (.416). I own them as pieces of firearms history. I am tempted to take the .416 out, loaded down to 45-70 levels ("Hot" 45-70s) or the 375 loaded down to 375Win levels and try them out on our PA deer. Maybe next season. The Rigby is frequently touted as the one gun to take to Africa if you can take only one. From that I take that it will be effective at a distance on plains game.
Taylor describes the Rigby as "...a great killer. Its plain soft nosed bullets will crumple a charging lion as few other weapons are capable of doing."
Pete
PS - Buy the Rigby. There's history and magic in that big brass case.
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Old July 23, 2008, 05:41 PM   #11
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Problem with lions is they come in prides, usually with more then 4 members. Rigbys aren't small, and, most rifles are limited to 3 or 4 of the beasts.

That's part of the appeal of the 416 Remington and the 458 Lott, 5-6 rounds in a CZ.

I think Ruger also makes a stainless action for the big game cartridges.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...iew?model=7505
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...iew?model=7512
only double a CZ.

Try the want ads at
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve

Also, look at the Nickudu files, Ganyanas' writing on dangerous game rifles, as well.
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Old July 23, 2008, 05:52 PM   #12
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Is the OP Firepower! looking to buy one of these, or just curious?
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Old July 23, 2008, 06:57 PM   #13
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MWM:
for what you are looking for, I think you better start looking at Weatherby Vanguards, or used weatherbys.
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Old July 23, 2008, 11:24 PM   #14
Firepower!
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Yes I am intending to buy one of these. I am not too sure about the NEs but the rest I am trying to figure which is the best all round yet heavy hitter. I can pick only one for now since I would have to import one into Pakistan.

How is 375 power wise compared to the rest?

Have read in gun & ammo mag a few months back that 458 lott the do all round?

Yet some really like 404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby?

I am not sure how to narrow down my choice. I am not looking forward to hunt anything specific, but if oportunity arises and I am in mood to fork out 150,000US$ I might go for leopard.
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Old July 23, 2008, 11:38 PM   #15
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My .458




A DGR caliber, but the way this one is built, not a good idea for a DGR. Neat to shoot though. 1909 Mauser, lots of custom metal work (the mag box is swiss cheesed, and there are other nice features), and rather light. Somebody built a nice mountain rifle, with a .458 barrel!

I handload, and shoot mostly cast bullets at about 45-120 to 45-90 speeds. I can also tell you that the Speer 400gr jacketed (intended for the .45-70) turns into a large varmint bullet when you push it up to 2200fps. Recoil in on th sharp side, and not condusive to extended target shooting, at least to me.
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Old July 24, 2008, 03:06 PM   #16
Mike Irwin
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"amaizingly, Remington ( at least according to the "choose a rifle by caliber site" ) I was just on, no longer builds a production rifle in 416 Remington, or 8mm Remington Magnum ???"

Actually, not too surprising at all.

Remington has a LONG history of failed cartridge launches.

The .416 Remington and 8mm Remington are two serious contenders for the "What the hell were they thinking" award for product design and marketing.
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Old July 24, 2008, 07:45 PM   #17
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Darkgael,

I'd say GO FOR IT! on shooting some deer with you're big guns. I have a brother here who hunts open country mule deer and elk with a 45-90. He and his sons are buffalo rifle enthusiasts, and are VERY effective out to 500 yards IF (note that it's a BIG "if") they know the yardage. Of course you don't have to worry about that so much in the brush.

I have another brother, and the two of them each shot a Bison a few years ago. While they used a .45-70 (Sharps repro) and a .44-100 (Origonal Remington-Hepburn) to bag their beasts, Brother #2 arrived with an M-700 in .375 H&H. He used that rifle with 270gr factory loads on 3 whitetail does. The meat damage was no different than what you might expect with a .30-06. Kills were authorative, but still required good hits. There was one WT doe he hit from broadside through both front legs and the briskit. That deer was knocked off the bank into a frozen river and nearly lost!
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Old July 25, 2008, 10:45 AM   #18
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What is wrong with the .416 Remington? I think it's a great idea. 400 grain bullets, 2300-2400 fps, and the 375 H&H case blown out? Plus, you get the high mag capacity of the 375 H&H rifles, like the CZ 550.
All they did was copy Jack Lott, and not give him credit, but, that's Remington...
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Old July 25, 2008, 11:30 AM   #19
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Big Guns

Samsmix: I will. Loaded down with 55grs. of 5744 and a 350gr RNGC (linotype) cast bullet, the Rigby gives me over 1900fps. Even loaded with 20grs. of Unique and the same bullet it is a thumper.
Pete
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Old July 25, 2008, 12:02 PM   #20
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The primary problem with the .416 Remington is the belt.

But that's my opinion.
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Old July 25, 2008, 02:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
What is wrong with the .416 Remington?
Well, it has a relatively straight case and operates at higher pressure than the 416 Rigby, which can make it hard to extract. The Rigby has a tapered case and operates at lower pressure, which makes extraction easy, but the case is too big in diameter to fit in a Rem 700. I'm with Mike on this one: if they really wanted a winner, they should have used the RUM case and dumped the belt.
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Old July 25, 2008, 02:27 PM   #22
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Sounds good for gun magazines. Problem with the big cases is that African animals come in prides, herds, etc. The magazine capacity of the Weatherby's, 460 based, Rigby's etc. are usually 2-3, not good if you get caught in the middle of a pride of hungry lions, or, elephants take exception to your hunting them.

I've shot 375 H&H, 450 Lott, .510 Van Horn, etc. all with belts, and, I find no disadvantage to the belted cases.
Just insures consistent head spacing.



I like this picture of my max, with 500 Linebaugh, .50 Alaskan, 50-110, .510 van Horn, and some 450 Lotts, in silver clothes:


Also, while you get more pressure in the Remington, you use a LOT less powder then with other lower pressure cases, and, the result is the recoil is kind of a trade off:

If you look closely at the cartridges in the above picture, you can see the considerable difference in size between the 450 Lott, and, the 450 Nitro Express 2. That translates into about 40 grains of difference in powder capacity, and, that means more recoil with the greater powder capacity.
While I think you can get a Lott to do what ever the 416 Remington can do, and cheaper, that doesn't make the 416 all that bad.

Now that said, I would NEVER buy anything from Remington, and, will avoid their stuff like the plague, ammo, rifles, etc.

The sticky ammo comments are well taken, since I found Remington to use the cheapest, highest recoiling, inaccurate powders of any of the ammo companies.
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Old July 25, 2008, 02:47 PM   #23
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The .404 Jeffery is <imho> great because it has less recoil than other big bores such as the .416 Rigby, but the .404 is still a great Big DG rifle and can also be a great plainsgame rifle. It's has great versatility.


The .375 H&H - like the .404 - can be a great plainsgame round and an adequate Big Game/DG round but the .404 Jeff. is better for the really big stuff...without the excesive recoil of the .416's...


The .300H&H is simply a great - maybe the best - plainsgame round, but it was
duplicated by the ugly and less refined .300 Win.
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Old July 25, 2008, 02:55 PM   #24
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.404 Jefferey also makes a GREAT wildcat. Neck it down to 375, and shoot Barnes X or GS customs in it, about 300 grains, and, it's one of the flatest, hardest hitting rounds anywhere, this with a 300 grain bullet, at about 2750 fps.

It's pretty much the 375 Rum, done before the Rum, as is usual, Remington just copied the cartridge from a certain Dubai buffalohunter.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/375404jeff.html
.539" at 100 yards, and, you get the general idea why Saeed's little brother is the Olympic skeet shooting champion.


Folks who have hunted with, and watched Saeed shoot buffalo with this gun come away thinking the cartridge is equal to the 450 Lott in effect on game.
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Old July 26, 2008, 01:31 AM   #25
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WIth a modern rifle, even belted cases are usually headspaced on the shoulder but thats semantics. Belts were a way to get a really yucky cartridge with little or no shoulder into a chamber and to stay there long enough for the thing to go boom.

By yucky, i am talking the condition of the round, not a judgment on effectiveness.

Long ago, when hunting in africa or india was often a matter of life or death. and you had some bush man carrying your stuff for months at a time, the biggest need for rounds to go in and out of hte gun and still go boom. Thus it was easiest to make a round fit in was make it tapered, and make an action that had LOTS of leverage behind it to get it shoved in.
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