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Old July 27, 2008, 06:59 AM   #51
shep854
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Apprentice, I am taking part in this sort of discussion on a number of websites, and the snubbie is regularly the chosen gun. For one starting out, it its an excellent choice. Autos are out there, if you get the itch later on.

A snub is resting in my safe, so I have an option as well.

Again, GOOD CHOICE! Have fun with it too!
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Old July 27, 2008, 11:01 AM   #52
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I have carried a Kahr PM9 for years ... like Alabama, Texas is hot a lot, and anything heavier than a tank top and shorts is really uncomfortable 6-8 months of the year ... When I can wear jeans and some kind of cover shirt, I carry the gun cross-draw in a Galco paddle holster ... I practice drawing from both every week ... IMHO, pocket carry is tops; it allows you to keep a hand on your gun at all times without attracting attention and even if you need both hands for something, it's right there with no shirt or jacket to clear out of the way ... That said, I just got a Kimber Ultra Carry II and it will be taking over daily carry duties except when I have to pocket carry ... then the Kahr slides into my pocket and I'm good to go ... another thing I don't know if anyone has mentioned ... you said you were attacked by 5-6 guys each time ... that leaves your snubbie one round short in both confrontations, assumes a quick one-shot fatality for each attacker and still leaves one guy unharmed to revenge his buddies ... unless you're a way better shot than I am, I'll take 7 shots in the Kahr, 8 in the Kimber ... do the math ...
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Old July 27, 2008, 11:23 AM   #53
Chui
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"... And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.

When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went straight to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence..."
You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA.

Yes, a snub-nosed revolver is a sef-defense pistol. Is it ideal for the circumstances descrbed? I'd say no, it probably isn't.
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Old July 27, 2008, 04:41 PM   #54
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You’ve been mugged twice by 5 or 6 and what you’ve learned is that a 5 shot snubby would be best????

My friend, even with a 100% 5/5 one shot stop and perfect accuracy (all VERY unlikely) you are still one round short.

Since, you mentioned the Lord, the Lord gave you a head, use it!
Quote:
I became aware of their threat (and yes, I am ALREADY a very observent person on alert) when there was only about 4 or 5 yards left between me and them.
You didn’t notice the potential threat involving 5/6 guys until 4 or 5 yards were left??
Sorry but no, you are not being aware or observant and it’s obvious you need to work on that, probably the reason you got mugged twice by now.

I hope you don’t take offense in my comments.

Quote:
Keltyke wrote
Quote:
Quote:
For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit.
Are you prepared with your 15 round mag? There's no "magic bullet" and no guarantee that many rounds will stop them. They're anticipating an easy, unarmed target. I'm betting they WILL quit once the first one is down and bleeding all over the sidewalk. Perps want it EASY. They do NOT want an armed conflict.
I wouldn’t bet if I were you. Not with your life at least.
My chances look much better if I have 3 rounds per badguys, vs. going 1 ronud too short...

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Old July 27, 2008, 05:37 PM   #55
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I got out of my car this morning in Berkeley. 5 homeless guys came around the corner, and, before I could really get out of the car, were within a distance I did not feel comfortable about. I also then noticed one more sleeping on the church steps.

The guys saw my beat up old car, and, my ref shirt and said something like,

"Don't do them wrong."

I answered,

"I don't."

and they kept walking. All I had was some directional mace/pepper spray, that I had in my hand, in my pocket. Since I am aware of the danger of homeless people, since about 45% of the San Francisco reported crimes, and, investigated, but never taken to trial are homeless people, either as victim or attacker, I was a bit edgy about the entire encounter.

My point is, the person, OP, has a valid point, and, you can be taken aware, but at the oddest times, like 8 am, Sunday morning, and find yourself in a not so good situation.

I also wonder, if you shoot, or fire a gun, how likely the gang bangers are to stick around, and, that even though there might be 6, the real question is who wants to get shot third, fourth, or fifth?

I know the Hell's Angels have a code that if one Angel is jumped, all others must jump in, and fight to the death, if need be.

I wonder if other gangs have something similar, even including gun fights??
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Old July 27, 2008, 05:46 PM   #56
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Quote:
I know the Hell's Angels have a code that if one Angel is jumped, all others must jump in, and fight to the death, if need be.

I wonder if other gangs have something similar, even including gun fights??
For the more violent Asian, Black and Hispanic gangs? Yes. And they may choose to retaliate later as well if you're successful on the first go around. The object is to be prepared to WIN by a landslide any encounter if you cannot avoid it. Relying on a 5 shot snub-nosed revolver will stop ME from laughing at you but it may only cause some goblin to whip out the Glock and start sending projectiles in your general direction. Not good.
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Old July 27, 2008, 06:36 PM   #57
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The Angels are also famous for hunting down witnesses, and killing them, and their family.

I will say they tend to be pragmatic. In a fight started by a wannabe Hell's Angel's girlfriend, the wannabe just disappeared. Detectives figure he's been used for shark food...never found a trace of him.

Also, the victim did not testify, for fear of the above reprisal.
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Old July 28, 2008, 05:43 AM   #58
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And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.
OP you are well armed with that snubby. That said if you allow someone to get a grab on it you are in the same trouble as if it were a Glock. Your capacity is fine unless all 5-6 men are determined to kill you. At that point I feel you will lose no matter what tactics you use to aid your survival.

I will say this, if you retreat, 4-5 yards is allot of distance for your attackers to overcome while eating 38 specials. If that weapon held more ammo would it not be better? My point is with proper tactics they should never grab it. That eliminates the main, although questioned, reason for its choice.
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Old July 28, 2008, 01:40 PM   #59
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The assumption that hostilities will cease at the sound or sight of gunfire is dangerous; a group of criminals rushing you may be on you, after all, by the time they process that one or two of them is shot. And one of the safest options for them at that time, given the situation, is to stay on you; hard on you.

---

Interestingly enough, I've never heard of a debrief from a survivor of an attack involving gunfire complain about his gun's capacity from a "I had too many rounds" perspective; especially if the facts required a reload. The same cannot be said of the reverse.
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Old July 28, 2008, 07:26 PM   #60
Chui
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Yep. One CANNOT retreat during an attack and they're MUCH better off to continue closing. And when you're speaking of gangs the more violent ones know this. AND several members will be armed. They may have been armed when they were rolling the OP but never felt the need to use it since they ha the upper hand.

A "snubbie" is a last ditch piece; always has and always will be. Those who think otherwise are fooling themselves.

A Glock 17 or 19/S&W M&P is better than any revolver. And unless you're as small as a broomstick you cannot ever convince me you cannot conceal it. Okay, maybe if you wear shirts and pants that are spray-painted on, but if that's the case you have much bigger issues...

Bottom line: no matter what you have if you're not prepared to use it/not paying attention/not prepared to use it/poorly trained it doesn't matter.

Make all things equal the semi-auto pistol is the better weapon. I prefer the 1911 followed by the M&P and Glock 17. Other prefer others but as a reality check go IDPA and compare your scores to others who are classified similarly. Then unleash the ammo capacity issue and re-run it: 17 rounds beats 5 and a longer sight radius beats a shorter one and good defensive sights beats rudimentary ones.

I thought we all knew this by now...
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Old July 29, 2008, 06:07 AM   #61
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Chui, Unfortunately there are many folks here on TFL who use probabilities and statistics to select a weapon or justify a weapon choice. We have seen this over and over. They will be out soon to scold you for comparing a gun game with real life. They push things like "the bad guy will run at the mere sight of a gun" and "after the first one or two are down and bleeding the rest will turn tail and run" to support opting for less capacity or even a smaller caliber.

The angle "the snub is less likely to get taken away" is new to me but equally wrong IME.

My answer is NO the snub is not the best choice. It will handle most situations well but it is not the best choice. An accurate, reliable, concealable weapon that holds 5 shots is not better than an accurate, reliable, concealable weapon that holds 15 shots.....provided the cartridges have similar effectiveness. Thats the bottom line.
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Old July 30, 2008, 10:42 AM   #62
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Quote:
Quote:
"... And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.

When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went straight to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence..."
Response quote:
Quote:
You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA.

Yes, a snub-nosed revolver is a sef-defense pistol. Is it ideal for the circumstances descrbed? I'd say no, it probably isn't.
!!!I AGREE WITH THIS RESPONSE...YOU NEED TO SEEK MORE EXPERIENCE!!!
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Old August 2, 2008, 12:08 AM   #63
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"You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA."

First, the 2 guys above claiming to be my "friend" are not.

I have extensively studied all of the above except IDPA.

My real life experience is worth all these plus much more.
By the way, I own 2 Glocks (G26 and G27).
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Old August 2, 2008, 02:39 AM   #64
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Carried my snubbie to dinner tonight...

...Smith 342, thank you very much...but it's a trade-off. I know I'm giving up a tactical advantage for convenience.

Guns are like parachutes: Always carry one more than you think you'll need. I wasn't too worried tonight, obviously. If I got into it with a multiple-opponent and/or armed opponent situation, I'd be severely under-gunned...but I didn't and indeed haven't yet (at least off-duty).

Real World Self Defense: You make your choice based on the threat and your comfort level.

If the balloon goes up, I'd want a mid-sized high-capacity handgun in at least 9mmP (let's not get into that debate), but the gun in your pocket is better than the one left in the car or in the safe.

Regarding retention, well, if you're in a retention situation, your **** is weak to start with, so I don't think it's an overriding concern. That said, autos are in fact slightly easier to hang on to because more of the mass is in your hand, not sticking out over it.

IMHO, Glock 19 is the serious choice, but the snubby is convenient, and perfectly adequate nearly all the time...but it would be a bummer to dump your 5 shot and get caught clicking on an empty cylinder.
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Old August 2, 2008, 04:42 PM   #65
Chui
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"You need to get more experience, my friend. You can do it several ways: books, videos, range shooting, defensive shooting schools and IDPA."

First, the 2 guys above claiming to be my "friend" are not.

I have extensively studied all of the above except IDPA.

My real life experience is worth all these plus much more.
By the way, I own 2 Glocks (G26 and G27).
You may not like the advice you're getting from me but I'm sure as Hell not your enemy. And from your experiences looks like you could use more friends with a bit more experience than yourself.

Since you've taken such a negative attitude do what the Hell you wish. I no longer care. I've not been rolled by a gang of thugs and I've frequented New Orleans, Atlanta and Detroit for over 20 years.

I do find it, well, ODD that you erroneously believe what you believe. But belief does not have to involve truth so I've answered my own question.

I still maintain you need more experience - both with self defence and human relationships.

Have a nice life.
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Old August 2, 2008, 07:44 PM   #66
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as time goes on, I realize bad guys/girls are crazier and more violent than they used to be just 20 years ago when I was a teenager. The irrational thought process they display has forced me to rethink my weapon choices. I have been a pocket carry airweight guy for a while. After the birth of my twins, I immediately added a speed loader. My research (online only) into force on force drills (read Suarez International) would indicate that with a snub nose from pocket carry and hand not in pocket, there has yet to be a successful draw and stop in their classes. When I carry my airweight, and my hackles raise I have my hand on my piece. But from hands outside the pocket, I am accepting the reality that I might not be fast enough and 5 shots might not be enough for someone who truly has no fear of death, bullet holes or prison...
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Old August 4, 2008, 06:34 AM   #67
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Apprentice, Several people (myself included) have stated that weapons retention with a snub vs a similar sized auto is almost identical in terms of keeping or losing your weapon. I feel the edge goes to the auto but whatever. So with such little difference why stay with the snub?

My suggestion is for you to allow a friend to grab both your G-26/27 and your snub nose revolver. They won't try to break your finger hopefully but it should give you an idea of what we are saying to you. Everyone on this board has made some decision/decisions that looked or felt correct but after further review were not correct. Your decision to carry a snub is not as bad as the reason you came to this decision.......weapon retention.
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Old August 5, 2008, 05:30 AM   #68
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The one thing I take with me to this day about these two occaisions the feeling that I WOULD NOT want a full sized handgun to defend myself - because of the very truncated distances and the real possibility of having the gun grabbed before I stopped at least one attacker.
What a strange conclusion. I'm kind of wondering if anyone here is fired at point blank range, with a snubbie, mine in .357 magnum, at a BG? While my second shot is going to suck, the first guy is going down blind, deaf, and maybe hit.

That said, the guys have a point about the Glocks, and full sized guns. The weight, and site radius and longer grip allow you to get off multiple shots, very quickly. Snubbies, at least ones you can pocket carry, are usually too light to insure quick shooting. You want the heaviest, highest capacity gun you can get your hands on for the situation you described. Also, the gun's design, trigger pull, and effectiveness give a serious advantage to guns with high capacity mags, and short, consistent triggers.
Glocks, with a 5.5 pound trigger, are FAR superior to my
360PD, that came with a 15 lb plus trigger, and, can be tuned to no less then 10 pounds, DA, and stay reliable.

Really, no pocket carry snubbie is going to pack enough punch to be a good first choice weapon. It is still difficult to deploy a large gun from under clothing as fast as you can a snubbie from a pocket, but, it would be worth the attempt. Given the situations you are talking about, you need something with, at least for the PRKali, max capacity of 10 rounds, or 10 Plus 1, and, is capable of mulitple, fast accurate hits on target. For CCW, that leaves me with either a Glock 26, 27, 29 or 30. All not so good for pocket carry. Another choice is a single stack 1911, like my Detonics, but, it would require a quick reload.
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Old August 5, 2008, 05:47 AM   #69
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There are things that can be done to increase the time needed to get your shots off. The 38 snub is plenty capable of causing a whole lot of problems for any attacking foe's. I just don't think its the best choice for this scenario.

Socrates, I can't even stand shooting next to a 357mag snub much less rushing it from the front LOL.
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Old August 6, 2008, 10:50 PM   #70
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Yes, threeguns, people forget how obnoxious they are just at the range, much less catching one in the face at 10 feet.

I find them REALLY annoying. Whenever someone gets one out, I get out either the .475 or 500 Max, shoot a could cylinders of full cases of 4227, or H110, and, they leave.

I used to fill a Colt case full of H110, 33 grains IIRC, put a 230 grain ball, hard cast on top, and plink away. The muzzle blast, and the flash from all that unburned powder was PERFECT for close range defense. Not to mention the bullet was moving around 1900 fps.
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Old August 7, 2008, 06:24 AM   #71
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Socrates, Unfortunately I'm stuck twice a month having to put up with whatever is being shot. As an R.O. at a local range I have to watch for the many yahoo's who aren't very muzzle conscious with some downright dangerous others simply shoot so bad that they destroy the facility. Non the less I get the occasional blast of a ported smith 500 and the common thunder of a snubby in 357mag. I hate both LOL. With the 500 I'm pretty sure the shooter will only be firing 10-20 shots. Not so with the 357.

Back to the point though I couldn't imagine an attacker or attackers continuing the attack in the face of such violent gas expansion.....how on earth could they?
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Old August 7, 2008, 07:11 AM   #72
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As the thread drifts...

The question has to be asked; who is being more rude and annoying, the person who is shooting a production gun (presumably while following range rules) or the person who feels compelled to make MORE noise just because he doesn't like the first shooter's choice of gun? I don't like the mega-loud guns either, but unless the range has a restriction, then I tolerate it while shooting my choices. Taken to extremes, ranges would restrict everything but .22 rimfire, and noise problems would be solved.

Please, I don't want to start a "war", but let's think about our own conduct.
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Old August 7, 2008, 07:44 AM   #73
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I hate both but the second guy is a ding dong LOL.
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Old August 19, 2008, 09:20 AM   #74
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Snubbies have been used effectively for years as self-defense weapons. It seems a good choice if that's what he wants to use. Its simple, effective, and reliable.
I personally don't care for pistols for self-defense, but have revolvers for those moments when you just don't have access to a 12 gage pump. My revolvers all operate the same, I can switch from one to the other without having to think about it. When your heart is pounding and the adrenalin is pumping, you fall back on your training, pull your gun, aim or point, and shoot til the threat is gone.
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Old August 19, 2008, 09:34 AM   #75
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Glad to hear you survived the most dreaded "multi-threat" scenario, armed or not.

While I may say my BUG is my Smith 340 (previously a Colt Cobra), in reality it is the gun my hand is usually on, either in a front pocket or jacket pocket, when I am walking in a parking lot at the mall, market, etc. and most likely would be the one that is fired first. I upgraded from the Colt for the hammerless configuration allowing it to be fired from inside the jacket pocket and also for the caliber (.38 to .357) and weight. The thing weighs 12 ounces.

My wife carries the same as her primary.

Be well.
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