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Old July 21, 2008, 02:58 PM   #26
shep854
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Just about anything can be concealed if one wants to badly enough (Mas Ayoob has showcased people who can conceal S&W 29), but the plain fact is that smaller objects can be hidden more easily than big(ger) ones. With guns, you make tradeoffs. Each person has to make their own decision.
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Old July 21, 2008, 03:20 PM   #27
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Revolvers can have the cylinder locked simply by grabbing it. This makes it a 0 shooter.

Anyway I took the OP as saying that the snubby is better because its shortness makes it harder to grab. When I compared my G-23 and G-22 to a Taurus 85 in my hand the snub was only slightly shorter. Realistically there would be virtually no difference in time for the BG to cover all 11/2 to 2 inches. Besides we should all practice gun retention and rapidly engaging multiple targets while retreating/moving.

Quote:
I WOULD NOT want a full sized handgun to defend myself - because of the very truncated distances and the real possibility of having the gun grabbed before I stopped at least one attacker.
I'm not attacking the choice of a snub only the premise that it would offer any advantage to a carry gun sized auto.

For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit.
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Old July 21, 2008, 03:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Revolvers can have the cylinder locked simply by grabbing it. This makes it a 0 shooter.
Ah.. partly. If it's already cocked, it WILL fire if the trigger is pulled. Gotta be a gutsy (or stupid) perp to grab a gun pointed at him. BTW, if the perp grabs your pistol and pushes the slide out of battery, it ain't gonna fire, either. If you do manage to get a shot off with him holding it, you're done, because the resistance of his grip will make it jam. Good reason to not let him get that close, too.

Quote:
For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit.
Are you prepared with your 15 round mag? There's no "magic bullet" and no guarantee that many rounds will stop them. They're anticipating an easy, unarmed target. I'm betting they WILL quit once the first one is down and bleeding all over the sidewalk. Perps want it EASY. They do NOT want an armed conflict.
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Old July 21, 2008, 03:52 PM   #29
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IMO, one needs to first determine if they want to go pocket carry or not.

If pocket carry, it narrows the choices down and makes selection much easier.

I prefer pocket carry at all times. Therefore, an NAA mini-mag revolver, BT380, S&W 442, or Kahr 9mm is the ticket for *me*. And I don't carry a BUG.
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Old July 21, 2008, 04:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Are you prepared with your 15 round mag?
Just doing the math and I am 3 times more prepared ammunition wise. Personally I am as prepared as I can be given the awful odds against 6 bad guys. My carry gun choice gives me as much ammo as can be held in a concealable package. My caliber is capable of deep penetration. My training includes shooting on the move and engaging multiple attackers while doing so. It also includes weapon retention and point shooting skills.

Is this enough???????I hope so.

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I'm betting they WILL quit once the first one is down and bleeding all over the sidewalk. Perps want it EASY. They do NOT want an armed conflict.
We pretty much agree except that you are betting and I am hoping. If they don't quit I have the tool and training to make them. I agree though that they probably will just quit at the sight of the gun or the innards of their buddy spilling out.
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Old July 21, 2008, 06:05 PM   #31
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Threegun, you're far more prepared than the simple ammo capacity math because the majority of the BUG-for-primary guys cannot shoot their choice of carry very well. The fact is those firearms are far more difficult to combat shoot well and since they are small lightweight firearms you and I both know that the majority don't shoot much with them. I don't shoot them nearly as well as my M&P, either. And no matter how well I trained to shoot them well I'd always shoot better with a normal sized firearm.

Yep, five aggressive guys and a five shot revolver. What a screaming deal, eh?
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Old July 21, 2008, 10:48 PM   #32
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I have a S&W model 65, 2-1/2" barrel. Don't carry it, can't find a holster I like. I carry x-draw from weak side. I'm too old and stiff to get the thing out of a strong side holster, and that also takes both hands, one to yank away the clothing and one to draw. My preferred carry is a mid-size 45acp, held tight against my side so it doesn't "print through. I never practice shoot at the usual range of 25yd. I don't even care what kind of 25yd accuracy my sidearm has. All my practice is 10yd or less, including some (very) rapid fire at about 2-3 yd. I also have a couple of N-frame Smiths, with the hammers de-horned. They're double action, aren't they? Who needs hammer spurs! Also, no spur means no snagg. Modifying reduces value? Who cares---I'm buying protection, not future investments. My chosen caliber is 45acp. My mid-size auto conceals as good or better than my S&W model 65. I have to admit I frequently carry my full size 1911. Hey, the only thing hard to hide is the grip, no matter how long the barrel. And, as Col. Jeff Cooper said, the 45acp will make the bad guy stop what he is doing before he kills you!
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Old July 22, 2008, 10:27 AM   #33
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Can't shoot small guns as well...

... well, maybe... For me, a true, pocket weight revolver (S&W Airweight or one of the Scandiums) would suffer, compared to the 9's, not only in terms of total ammo capacity, but potential rate of fire.

I can shoot my SP101 very accurately. However, I can't get an accurate rate of fire with it that would even begin to approach the effective rate of fire I can get out of my Beretta Centurion, or even Sig P239. At 7 yards, from the Beretta, I can put 15 rounds in the sweet spot about as fast as I can put 5 .357's from the SP. In the same time, I could put 8 or 9 from the Sig, and be well into the reload.

If the SP's CrimsonTrace is activated, I can bring the fire rate up significantly over iron sight aimed fire, but it still doesn't match the 9mm's. And bear in mind, most consider the SP101 to be too bulky for pocket carry.

Revolvers can be shot quickly and accurately, of course. I can shoot the GP100 nearly as rapidly as my 9's, but it's not exactly a pocket pistol. Frankly, I am not confident in my ability to conceal it under anything less than a jacket.
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Old July 22, 2008, 11:10 AM   #34
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How did this become an "either/or" debate? The first few posters had some interesting remarks on rethinking the traditional roles of BUG and main carry, with the thinking being the smaller gun might be easier to access RIGHT NOW under pressure depending on mode of carry. Capacity debates are so boring.

And yes, a Glock 19 is far easier to defend/deflect than a snubby. I've done it with blue guns in Krav Maga and a G19-size gives you plenty of barrel and frame to work with (relax--I'm not saying it's easy to do or your 19 is going to get stripped, I'm just saying it's easier than with the snub). The snub requires attacking the hand holding it and the shooter can power right through your grasp.
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Old July 22, 2008, 11:27 AM   #35
Mark Milton
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20 plus years ago, I got mugged outside my place of work.

Some guy walked up, demanded $5 and stabbed me in the arm. I knocked the holy crap out of him and he bounced up off the sidewalk like a basketball and we rolled around in the mud of a parking lot for a few minutes before I pulled a pro-wrestling move on him -body slam- whereupon he bounced up again and ran away. I started to run after him but was weak for some reason.
I went back to my college dorm and found out he had sliced my scalp open as well as stabbed me in the arm. He tried to stab me again and broke the knife. I still have it.
What is funny is that I was only working that crappy job in that crappy neighborhood in hopes of saving up enough money to buy a gun.
Back then, the only guns I was interested in were single action revolvers.
Looking back a snubby or a big bore derringer would have been just fine for that particular situation, but I did not have one.
Thank the gods I was into powerlifting and boxing back then.

A couple of years after that, I got into another bad situation, where my roomate and I wandered into a drug situation. That time, I was armed and got out without a scratch. At the time, I really wished I had my own gun, a long barrelled model 29, instead of a service pistol I had borrowed to go plinking.
Back in the mid 1980s, the standard teaching was to carry the biggest gun you cold conceal- which for me was a Model 29 with a six inch tube.
At that time, in Ky, carrying concealed was a misdemeanor with a $100 fine.

As I got older and less studly, I began carrying smaller guns. 645s, Berettas, 1911s, etc.
These days, after a hernia repair I mostly carry a snub nose 5 shooter or a .45 derringer.

I think the most important factor is to HAVE A GUN, followed by having it in an effective caliber. Everything else comes in third.

>>>For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit. <<<

In the real world, you seldom get bum rushed. Police statistics show that most civillian and LE shootings take place at about ten feet or less and end after three rounds have been fired.
All due respects to Mel Gibson's screen writers.
You get bum rushed by six people chances are you won't have time to pull the trigger more than twice.
Thing is, I doubt most people will bum rush you once you pull a gun on them.
Criminals are looking for an easy score not a fight. A gangbanger with an AK will run from a granny with a .25 auto every time.

For those of you who enjo snubbies, I recommend Ed Lovette's excellent book on the snub nose revolver. Even an old wheelgunner like me learned a thing or two from it. Its worth far more than the asking price if you are serious about saving your own bacon.
Lovette points out that in todays bottom feeder world a lot of old school wheelgun techniques and tricks are getting lost.
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Old July 22, 2008, 05:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
All due respects to Mel Gibson's screen writers.
You get bum rushed by six people chances are you won't have time to pull the trigger more than twice.
I'm definitely on the down side of life's ladder yet I can run and shoot very well. I have practiced several techniques of Sweat'n'bullets fluid threat response. One in particular has you shooting while running at full speed back wards with good combat hits very achievable (i plan on one day actually taking the course). If bum rushed this technique could buy you the time needed to engage many more targets than either stand and deliver or the traditional back pedal while shooting.

On a side note even if you aren't able to move due to injury, age, or surroundings you can make subtle movements that will buy time such as a simple sit/roll to your back. Anything that buys you distance/time means more lead flying and increased odds of survival.

While I enjoy Mel's movies I understand that they are make believe. However I have run mock drills with friends simulating being attacked by multiple foes and using different responses to fend off the attack. Similar to FOF except without the force. It didn't matter in what direction I ran I was always able to point and fire at every attacker every time (3 guys was the max we ever had rushing but it wouldn't have mattered much if it were more).

I learned that the group usually strung out in a line as the faster or more aggressive powered forward. If my trigger pulls amounted to hits the leader of the pack would be hit multiple times if needed before he could reach me. If he fell he would be an obstacle slowing the others down further increasing my time. So I believe a bum rush can be survived provided you are able to employ the correct tactics and get good hits on your foes.

Quote:
Thing is, I doubt most people will bum rush you once you pull a gun on them.
I agree. Still better to be prepared for as much as possible.
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Old July 22, 2008, 05:27 PM   #37
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MK11,

Quote:
And yes, a Glock 19 is far easier to defend/deflect than a snubby. I've done it with blue guns in Krav Maga and a G19-size gives you plenty of barrel and frame to work with (relax--I'm not saying it's easy to do or your 19 is going to get stripped, I'm just saying it's easier than with the snub). The snub requires attacking the hand holding it and the shooter can power right through your grasp.
The snubby doesn't require the hand to be attacked. I can and have (in fun) grabbed the cylinder before it could rotate. While my hand held the cylinder the gun couldn't be fired no matter how hard the trigger was pulled. On many models the hammer can be held or allowed to bite your flesh to stop the gun.

Also I wasn't proclaiming either platform better or worst at preventing a takeaway or hand on gun induced failure. I was simply responding to the OP suggesting that a snub would be better because of its shorter size. Both platforms are in serious danger of failing if grabbed IMO and IME. On both platforms gun retention tactics will reduce or eliminate this problem.
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Old July 22, 2008, 05:34 PM   #38
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It will always be easier for me to access my pocketed NAA Mini first and then yank out the big ole IWB .38 afterwards.
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Old July 23, 2008, 10:56 AM   #39
MK11
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I'm aware of grabbing the cylinder. The counter to that is the shooter twisting the gun and driving it toward your face while pulling the trigger 5, 6 or 7 times. The cylinder on a snubbie isn't much to hold onto compared to an auto's slide, especially they just step back and pop you from retention if you fumble the grab.
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Old July 23, 2008, 11:05 AM   #40
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There are quite a few instances of lone police with firearms being rushed by large groups. Interestingly, they seem not to resort to their gun and get beat up.

There's theories of violence and group dominance behavior that explain such but I'm not in lecture mood today.
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Old July 23, 2008, 02:58 PM   #41
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One can grab the slide of an semi-auto pistol all one wants. It will still fire. It just won't cycle. The "bad" thing is that it's not a violent thing (holding the slide while someone fires the pistol) so it may not induce the guy to let go. However, someone who is in front of you grabs the slide simply pull towards yourself as you take a step back and, "Voila!" they are in alignment more or less with the muzzle. Let 'em have it.
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Old July 23, 2008, 03:05 PM   #42
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The trick with a semi is to (if one is gutsy/desperate/nuts enough to try) shove against the muzzle as one grabs the slide, hard. By pushing back, the lockwork is disconnected as the slide is pushed out of battery, and the hard grip is to prevent the slide from returning to battery.
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Old July 23, 2008, 03:13 PM   #43
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Correct, shep854.
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Old July 23, 2008, 03:18 PM   #44
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Quote:
There's theories of violence and group dominance behavior that explain such but I'm not in lecture mood today.
oh man...how about tomorrow? I would very much like to hear your thoughts on that topic.
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Old July 23, 2008, 03:31 PM   #45
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The book is Randall Collins: Violence: A Micro-sociological Theory - 2008
Princeton University Press.

Really is a good read for folks interested in the issues.

It's in there.

Only 562 pages - maybe I can summarize later but I'm in the midst of a big project and just goof off on TFL to clear brain.
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Old July 23, 2008, 03:48 PM   #46
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I agree with the post, that stated whatever works for you!!!!!

I recommend however and whatever you are going to carry, that you practice several times a month drawing and firing against simulated real life experiences.(like at IDPA matches)

For some drawing from the pocket may be faster and for others from the waist might be...I know that I practice drawing my XD-45 from my inside the waist band several times a month and can get it out faster than my kel tec PF-9 and once out I can shoot from retention with my XD-45 and have 14 rounds to do it with.

It really comes down to being willing to practicing real life situations, not just standing there shooting at hanging targets
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Old July 23, 2008, 04:35 PM   #47
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Both platforms can be made to not function with a firm grip. Both platforms have remedies to defend against a firm grip. Both will function if the remedy is successful and both will fail if not.

This still doesn't make the snubby a better choice which was the OP's point.
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Old July 24, 2008, 12:50 PM   #48
Glenn E. Meyer
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Ok - Collins proposed that initiating violence against another is very hard due to built in inhibitions in most of us. Same thing that Grossman reviews. Granted there is some controversy over SLA Marshall's analysis but Collins looks at new data to say the basic idea stands up with troops reluctant to fire.

One has to overcome this reluctance. One component of that is to achieve a sense of emotional dominance over the opponent If that occurs, it is easier to initiate violence.

In some large group attack situations, the group achieves the dominance and that disinhibits their reluctance to attack. The victim folds and flees or ends up in the fetal position to reduce appearance of threat and minimize damage.

He documents that even armed personnel fall victim to this and if dominated don't use their firearms and can get beat up by unarmed groups.

I've seen folks in FOF unable to fire with Sims against an aggressor and land up on the ground as they retreated. One such person was a 'martial' arts expert and just froze up. He could have shot the aggressor.

Of course, one can postulate this will not happen to you because we are mighty - it is an empirical question.
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Old July 24, 2008, 01:35 PM   #49
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Glen, I just read your "Academic Shooter" article; very good! Even as a "hard-core" conservative, my outlook on guns was pretty much the same as yours, until I was given cause to do some study on RKBA.

Now, I'm a hard-core right-wing gun nut*!

*"Nuts about guns," that is, not a "nut with a gun."
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Old July 26, 2008, 11:30 PM   #50
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"For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit."

No, but my sister (I'm bachelor - and she's my only real family) would hard a hard time if she learned that I was mugged and seriously injured or killed and none of the assailants were hurt.

Basically, next time something like that goes down, I'll take five shots from my SW 642 and let the Lord take care of the rest.

And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.

When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went staright to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence - the gun turned out to be a shrouded 38+ S&W snubbie - although I was new to guns at the time.

I just think the pocket snubbie is a true self defense piece.
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