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Old July 18, 2008, 05:51 PM   #1
Apprentice_941
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Real World Self Defense: Snubbie 1st, Mid-Sized Auto 2nd (If Necessary)

Over the past 15 years, I have been jumped (mugged) twice - both times by groups of young men (5 or 6 men both times). After the second occaision, I finally changed the way I view the world and walked into a gun shop a few months later and purchased a handgun.

Having played these past two experiences over and over in my mind, I realize they were both very similar - I became aware of their threat (and yes, I am ALREADY a very observent person on alert) when there was only about 4 or 5 yards left between me and them.

The one thing I take with me to this day about these two occaisions the feeling that I WOULD NOT want a full sized handgun to defend myself - because of the very truncated distances and the real possibility of having the gun grabbed before I stopped at least one attacker.

The other feeling is that on both occaisions, a pocket draw would have been the best chance to very quickly get a gun in hand.

I just wanted to share this from my two real world experiences, where only through shear luck was I able to escape serious bodily injury as I was pretty much defenseless in both scenaios.

Summary - Real world self defense: A snubbie first out of the pocket, then second -a mid sized auto from IWB, holster, etc.
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Old July 18, 2008, 06:15 PM   #2
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Glad you weren't injured. The gun you should use is the one that works for you. For immediate deployment, it's hard to beat a snubbie from the pocket. Draw and shoot from the hip if they're that close. The added benefit is it will fire 999 times out of 1000 when you pull the trigger. No worrying about safeties or chambering a round. You pull and it goes BANG! If you pull and it doesn't go BANG, just pull again. And don't let anyone tell you a 5 shot .38 spcl. won't do the job. It's done the job for many years.
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Old July 18, 2008, 07:13 PM   #3
Erik
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When events allow the draw to be "staged," pistols produced from pockets are fast indeed and may offer advantage in that; and many (most?) find J-frames and similar sized revolvers ideal for this purpose.

When events do not, pistols produced from the belt line, relatively fast under most circumstances, may offer access related advantage; and many (most?) find larger pistols, revolvers and/or semi-automatics, ideal for this purpose.

Which is why so many people carry there.

Erik, who in full disclosure admits to practically always carrying a j-frame and a mid-sized semi-automatic. The idea being to maximize the advantage of both in different circumstances.
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Old July 18, 2008, 07:16 PM   #4
Apprentice_941
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Erik, the thing about pulling a gun from your pocket (that is if you are fortunate enough to be already standing - or still standing) is that it is concealed and protected up to the very instance you can deploy it. Running these two muggings back through my mind and recalling the ACTUAL feelings I had - pocket draw would have been my best chance since the distnces were very small and I was standing up already.

BTW...actually, I had my skull fractured and suffered a ruptured hamstring muscle trying to run away in the second mugging - in Los Angeles. Gang banger land.

So by 'escape serious injury' - I mean I was fortunate not to lose consciousness where one or a couple could then beat me to a coma.

A snubbie out of the pocket would have prevented both of these injuries as the perps did a last second "check down" (presumably to wait and see if I was going to draw some heat) before they intiated their attack.

...but IF there is a 'next time', there IS going to be a snubbie coming out of the pocket, and powder and flames blowing out the cylinder gap. My skull cannot take any more blows.
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Old July 18, 2008, 08:16 PM   #5
dabigguns357
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snubbies

I have carried for years and quiet a few firearms but over the last couple of years i have reduced my carry options to a snubbie 357 rossi.I know people will tell you that rossis are no good but i really trust both mine.they are what they are simple and cheap.Yes i do have other firearms that are much better and will carry them when fall and winter comes but for now a snubbie is great.rossi357 model 677.jpg

Last edited by dabigguns357; July 18, 2008 at 08:48 PM.
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Old July 18, 2008, 11:52 PM   #6
Rifleman 173
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If you are talking about pocket revolvers, take a look at this model of S&W pistols. The hammer is enclosed so that it does not snag on cloth and it can be fired from inside a pocket. A lot of the old time cops swore by these type of pistols because of the enclosed hammer shroud. The old time cops loved these things. I hope that this might help a bit.

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/m642.htm
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Old July 19, 2008, 12:59 AM   #7
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Appendix Carry

Appendix Carry would seem to confer a lot of the pocket advantages, it's very close to your hand. I tried it various ways as I like an IWB, can carry more weight - or same weight but feels less (I guess because IWB is pressing gun against your body so full weight of gun is not hanging down) than does a pocket-carry - least for me.

But I can't get the Appendix mode comfortable any way I tried so I gave up, returned to behind hip IWB. The pocket-c. feels too heavy after a bit, (Colt Detective is the snub - and I LOVE it, don't want a titanium smith or anything like that)
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Old July 19, 2008, 01:21 AM   #8
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Pocket draw is only fast if you are walking with your hands in your pockets, at least in my experience. Drawing my USP expert 45 from my IWB holster is much faster than drawing my P3AT from my KD pocket holster. Now if you walk with your hands in your pockets, then yes, from the pocket would be significantly faster, as you would have your hands on the pistol before the situation even begins.

Good luck getting a CCW. I hope your experiences warrant your approval for a permit with the local authorities.
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Old July 19, 2008, 03:31 AM   #9
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Very good post, and thank you for sharing your real world expiriences.

The only thing I will add is, "and people wonder why I walk around with a hand in my pocket?"

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Old July 19, 2008, 07:24 AM   #10
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Pocket draw also allows a one-handed presentation. With a IWB or OWB, you have to jerk your shirt up with your off hand and draw with your strong hand. You're right, in a tense situation, casually put your hand in your pocket and get a grip. You can draw in a heartbeat or even shoot from the pocket.
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Old July 19, 2008, 02:50 PM   #11
Erik
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"With a IWB or OWB, you have to jerk your shirt up with your off hand and draw with your strong hand."

Maybe, maybe not, depending on physique, technique and manner of dress. But you do not "have to" use your off hand, and in my experience most do not.
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Old July 19, 2008, 06:47 PM   #12
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I don't understand what happened on those two occasions. Were you beaten and robbed? Or just beaten?
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Old July 20, 2008, 12:52 AM   #13
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I read a breif article by Jerry Van Cook (author of an Undercover LEO autobiographical book which is supposed to be excellent) on a system he developed for his own use, detailed in a sidebar on the then new Taurus Ti snubs and particular favorite 7-shot .357. He found that of all handguns, he could draw and fire a small frame wheelie faster than anything, though his sidearm of choice was a 1911A1, .45. Therefore, when sudden incidents went down, his BUG became the primary, with the big, heavy Colt to fall back on. He noted when he had time, or was out on the offensive (serving warrant, etc.), he would pick the obviously easier to shoot .45, with the snub on reserve as traditional order would have. This made a lot of sense to and really made me think about the importance of draw and fire handguns (DAO snubs, striker compact autos) for carry.
It made sense from a mental perspective. condition black when you pull the .38, whether you were just walking down the street, or just putting 8 rounds of .45 into assailants on that same street, the fight in fight or flight means that snubnose.
Interesting method, something good that comes from people thinking and analyzing for themselves and their particular situations.
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Old July 20, 2008, 08:07 AM   #14
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The first observation: Don't take anyone's word on which method is quicker; PRACTICE DRAWING & figure out what's best for you. I know for me pocket drawing is cumbersome at best and if you don't see the attack coming until they are right on you it would be better to use your hands to defend yourself; get some room and draw. Putting your strong hand into your pocket doesn't seem very smart with goblins throwing punches and kicks at you.

The fastest draw would be Appendix Carry from what I've observed. If you've got a flat stomach you are CAPABLE of carrying in that manner. Your dress wil require your buttons to be buttoned so it will probably require two hands to draw. In the circumstances described that, too, may have presented issues. Obtain an Appendix holster and try it out a bit. It may work well - especially with a "mouse"-sized pistol.

Strong-side IWB offers a phenomenal compromise (though you can be "bump-checked"). A mid or full-size pistol would be a better choice in the cirumstances described. They can be easily concealed if you arent' shaped like the Michelin man. Only ONE hand is required if you dress appropriately: tucked T-shirt with open button shirt on top. Again, modify your "style" of dress to meet your perceived needs.

Learn to shoot in Close Quarters; learn to shoot with one hand; learn to point/flash sight picture shoot. There are classes that teach techniques for one to two arms length events. The larger guns are easier to hit with quickly. End of discussion. The smaller guns are easier to conceal but give up hitability for concealability. Look up Andy Stanford's book Surgical Speed Shooting also look up Rob Pincus (I cannot think of the name of his book, unfortunately). Obtain Kelly McCann/Jim Grover's videos from Paladin Press and you'll see demonstrations of how it CAN be done. See if anyone local teaches similar materials.

Good luck.
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Last edited by Chui; July 20, 2008 at 09:56 AM. Reason: typo
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Old July 20, 2008, 11:43 AM   #15
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Disclosure: I pocket-carry a PF9.

As has been said in various ways, each of us does what we are most comfortable/confident with. Each carry style has its own advantages and disadvantages.

My choice to carry in my trouser pocket are:
1) Year-round consistency. A cover garment is not necessary (here in Alabama heat, any extra clothing is simply more uncomfortable. The down side is that in winter, I will have to work around a coat.

2) Excellent concealment with good access. There is only a slight indefinite bulge, which could be any kind of pocket junk. No cover garment to clear for the draw. Unless you are/were professional military, hands in pockets is very comfortable.

3) Discreet. If a situation goes from Yellow to Orange, simply slipping one's hand into the pocket allows one to grip the gun, without appearing to "brandish" (a no-no in some jurisdictions). The fastest draw for ANY carry option is when you can start with gun in hand.

Many (most?) don't like pocket carry, for perfectly good reasons. As I said above, "comfort/confidence". Check them all out, and go with what works for you.
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Old July 20, 2008, 11:44 AM   #16
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After years of carrying I've decided on IWB, but I also do often stick a litle Charter Arms 38 snubbie in my pocker. It has the shrouded hammer and I can fire from the pocket. However, I think it is best carried from a loose coat pocket of loos slacks, not tight Levies.

Thank God you survived your attacks.
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Old July 20, 2008, 11:59 AM   #17
shep854
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Threefeathers just made a good point: Jeans are not good for pocket carry. Not only do they tend to be rather tight, but the cut of the pockets makes accessing a gun in the pocket rather difficult. With the "horizontal" opening, you have to move your hand above the pocket, then reach down, then pull back up (the gun being nearly vertical, with muzzle pointed at the ground) before you can even start pointing the gun toward the target. Also, the cut of jeans pockets make a gun nearly impossible to get at when sitting.

With slacks or most casual trousers, the pocket opening is more or less vertical, so to draw you simply reach forward into the pocket, draw rearward, and the gun comes out pretty near horizontal, and nearly in a retention position.
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Old July 20, 2008, 04:21 PM   #18
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Shrouded hammer, shoot from the pocket, +1. But...do a lot of practice (dry firing) also.
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Old July 20, 2008, 04:42 PM   #19
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pocket pistol

Pocket carry is how I'm armed 90% of the time. When I'm out walkin, my hand is in my pocket, when I'm gassing up the car- hand in the pocket. I came close to drawing the other day in a W-M parking lot. Security was chasing a shop lifter. As I parked the car, my wife got out first, then was almost knocked down by store security chasing the shop lifter. My hand went to draw automaticaly. Once I realized there was no threat, the hand came out of pocket empty. No blood, no foul.
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Old July 20, 2008, 05:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
The other feeling is that on both occaisions, a pocket draw would have been the best chance to very quickly get a gun in hand.

Strong-side front pocket carry has enormous tactical advantages.
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Old July 21, 2008, 12:55 AM   #21
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Good thread, thanks for sharing your experiences. I always have a snubby on me that I can access with either hand. My main CCW is a Glock27. The snubby is a BUG.
I read a great book on snubbys a few years ago.
Here is the link.

http://www.amazon.com/Snubby-Revolve...6619425&sr=1-1
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Old July 21, 2008, 01:40 PM   #22
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So my G-23 is not as good a choice because the barrel extends 11/2 inches beyond a snub or a full sized Glock 2 inches beyond the snub?

Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun.
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Old July 21, 2008, 01:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun.
I took it seriously. For whatever reason, some people can't conceal anything larger than a snubbie revolver or similar sized pistol, like the Keltec PF9 and 11.

It's not a question that the larger a handgun is, the harder it is to conceal. 2" of barrel may not make a difference to you, but to some it does.

For example. I have a Steyr S9 and an M9. The M has a 1/2" longer barrel and a 5 round larger magazine/butt. It's MUCH more difficult to conceal than the S.
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Old July 21, 2008, 02:14 PM   #24
Chui
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Quote:
So my G-23 is not as good a choice because the barrel extends 11/2 inches beyond a snub or a full sized Glock 2 inches beyond the snub?

Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun.
If you're speaking about carrying on one's belt I concur strongly... but some people are either not willing to investigate good leather and a good holsters or, more likely, alter their dress. I'd take a Glock 19 or Glock 23 over any J-Frame or pocket pistol as I know I can deliver fast combat accurate shots far better than with the smaller pistols and revolvers.
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Old July 21, 2008, 02:35 PM   #25
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"Is this serious? What difference is 11/2 to 2 inches going to make? I just don't see any advantage to a snub vs any other concealable sized handgun".

I hear what you are saying but I carry a snubby as a BUG and I know that if it gets to the point that I am grappling with a BG on the ground that I can press my concealed hammer snubby into the body of my attacker and it will fire fine. My Glock or any semi for that matter, in the same situation would become a 1 shot. The semi's can be knocked out of battery in such a case.
And yes a revolver can be grasped around the cylinder and become a "no shot" but the revolver at least for me is easier to retain. I also carry a KA-BAR TDI small knife that I can reach with either hand.
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