The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 26, 2008, 11:54 AM   #1
damgrunt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2008
Posts: 13
30-06

quick question for the gods and generals of the Weapon world....i've heard many things regarding the 30-06 as a sniper rifle. most of which are negative. i have a 30-06 and although the scope is rather weak, i'm easily hitting targets at 400m. (thats all the room i have here) the bullet drop doesn't seem to be that big of an issue and my elevation adjustments aren't ridiculous as i expected them to be while listening to the 30-06 bashings online. so my question is, why does everyone hate the 30-06?
damgrunt is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 11:58 AM   #2
tplumeri
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,919
no hate here, 30-06 worked fine in ww2, still a good all around hunting round
(for those medium large critters)....
tplumeri is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 12:03 PM   #3
HOGGHEAD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2008
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 637
30-06

They hate the 30-06 beccause their Dad and their Pap had one. And they have to be different.

Also their Dad's and Pap's did not teach them the proper way to shoot and made them afraid of the recoil of the 30-06. I am amazed at how many new shooters think a 30-06 is a "hard kicking" magnum. Or they say it is complete overkill(which is nonsense).

Also the gun mfrs. spent so much money promoting new cartridges. Everybody had a 30-06 so they only way they could sell new rifles was to bash the grand old cartridge with something "New and improved". Even if it was not a dime bit better. Tom.
HOGGHEAD is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 12:06 PM   #4
damgrunt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2008
Posts: 13
well said

now i feel better. isn't that the rifle that Carlos H. used?
damgrunt is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 12:10 PM   #5
damgrunt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2008
Posts: 13
nevermind

i just read that he used a winchester model 70.
damgrunt is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 12:18 PM   #6
Sportdog
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2006
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Posts: 369
I Love It

There are many great centerfire cartridges out there but the 30-06 is right up near the top if not at the top. That is not to say that other cartridges don't measure up because many do some things better than the 06 but because of the massive numbers of rifles chambered for it and the international popularity it's hard to beat when push comes to shove. I have a 243Win, a 7mmWSM, a 8mmMauser, and a 300WinMag......and three 30-06's. They are all fine cartridges but if I could only have one to keep it would be my Model 70 Winchester 30-06. Lot's of people like to take the 06 to task. That's just a human trait that wants to see #1 get knocked off!

Last edited by Sportdog; June 27, 2008 at 12:23 AM.
Sportdog is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 12:52 PM   #7
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,473
damgrunt,

Carlos Hathcock used an Winchester m70 target model in 30-06. This was a pre-64 controlled round feed action, heavy barrel, topped with a Unertl scope.

The sniper ammunition was a 173 grain FMJBT launched around 2550 fps. This loading has the same ballistics as the m118 special ball load for the 308. The modern m118lr is different, it pushes out the 175 gr SMK.

If you want a good modern load for the 30-06 many folks are having great success handloading with the 190 grain SMK, but you can still buy 168 grain match ammo from Black Hills (and probably a few others).

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 01:03 PM   #8
tplumeri
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,919
I have a few 30-06 milsurp with pointed FMJ and steel cases (copper washed)
stamped F 71 N with brass primers(commie block)
any ideas what the ballistics might be?
thanks
tom
tplumeri is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 02:51 PM   #9
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
I'd challenge the assertation that many shooters "hate" the .30-06.

It, and most other cartridges in its power range, have been outmoded for military use because they pack way more energy than is really necessary to kill an enemy soldier at ranges at which an average foot soldier can be expected to score a hit. Note the disclaimer- we're not talking about Carlos H., Simo H., or Lyudmila P.*- we're talking about Joe Private. It makes more sense for Joe Private to carry a less powerful cartridge that costs less to manufacture and fits in a smaller and handier gun.

OTOH for game and target shooting, it's fine! I don't read many articles "hating" on it- I've usually seen it referred to as the benchmark by which all others are measured, like the .357Mag amongst handgun shooters.

*Yeah, I know that Simo and Lyudmila used the 7.62x54R, but it has ballistics close to a .30-06, and it is still used by snipers in Finland and Russia.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 03:18 PM   #10
damgrunt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2008
Posts: 13
for lack of a better term

"Hate" is a strong word, agreed. i was just doing some research in Google and i've always heard about a 30-06 being a great round. while googling i found articles like the 30-06 vs .308 round and how there are so many better options. one of them was from Guns and ammo. it didn't sound right and i've been helped using firingline forums before so i came here. i am now back with my original opinion about the 30-06. i will continue to use it as my primary rifle. i also have a 30/30 but it just isn't as wonderful as the 30-06. i'm about to pickup a P90 though. i found one brand new for 1549.00 in olive drab.
damgrunt is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 03:34 PM   #11
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,448
I fail to see any difference between a 7.62X51 launching a 168 gr bullet at 2700 fps or a 30-06 launching the same bullet at the same speed. People who claim to know (and should know better) go on and on about how vastly superior one is over the other should know that the T48 (later known as 7.62X51mm NATO or 308 Winchester) was designed to replicate the velocity of the 30-06 ammunition firing the same weight bullet. Due to modern powder development that is no longer perfectly accurate, but it's still close enough.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 03:59 PM   #12
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,718
Carlos used a M-14 to make his first kill but his first sniper rifle was a Win. model 70 in 30-06. His second tour he had a Remington model 700 in .308.
Hawg is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 04:27 PM   #13
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,622
The .30-06 is a whole series if cartridges all rolled into one. The benefit of being over 100 years old is that both commercial makers and handloaders have tried thousands of different bullet and powder combinations.
Many of those combinations are intended for shooting targets at long range. It would be more surprising if the OP had problems shooting out to the relatively close 400yds. Out of a well made rifle the .30-06 will hit targets further away that most shooters will have a chance to try.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 04:42 PM   #14
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
The general negative attitude, I think Hogghead nailed it. A century-plus old cartridge is not tacticool, and does not match with 5.11 wardrobes. When I bought my first bolt-action, I almost bought the hype, until I realized the /06 is almost limitless in its versatility, and I'm not a good enough shooter to realize the marginal benefits of more recent cartridges.
bclark1 is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 04:53 PM   #15
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,718
30-06, It don't get any better than that.
Hawg is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 04:54 PM   #16
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,473
I happen to think the 30-06 goes quite well with 5.11 wardrobes. 5.11 boots and moisture wicking Tshirts are top notch.

The old M1D and 1903A4 are old school "tacticool". Heck for that matter even the 308 is getting "old school".

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 05:06 PM   #17
fisherman66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2005
Location: Rhome, TX
Posts: 4,641
I'm not a fan of the 30'06. I find it's recoil objectionable in lightweight rigs from the bench. If I need more power than 7x57, I probably need more than the 30'06 (I'm thinking dangerous game). I prefer a short action in a non-dangerous bolt gun. I'm not knocking the round, but it's not a cartridge I'm interested in. I will admit that it's one of the very best "do it all" rounds, but the same could be said about the 270, 280, 308, 7-08 ect. JMHO
__________________
la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!
fisherman66 is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 05:24 PM   #18
hps1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
As Jimro said, the 190 gr. matchkings work great @ long range in the '06. The extra case capacity of the 30-06 case over the 308 case makes it more suitable for heavier bullets, which perform better at long range. IMHO, therein lies the advantage of the '06 over the 308. As stated by Scorch, the larger case not much advantage when shooting 168's which perform well out to 600yds.

You hear a lot about the 308 being "inherently more accurate"; maybe so, but I have a pre-64 mod. 70 target rifle in 30-06 that will give the 308's a run for their money.

Regards,
hps
__________________
Gun Owners note: The Second Amendment is not about hunting! Join NRA @: http://membership.nrahq.org/
hps1 is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 07:40 PM   #19
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
Hmm, I'm thinking about .270 Winchester versus .30 -'06 versus .308 Winchester.

Long range shooting probably favors the .270 Winchester since it shoots a little faster.

Within, say, 200 yards there probably isn't much between them except the .270 Winchester will be just a bit flatter shooting and using proper rounds it won't make much of a difference.

I look at the .30-'06 as "the rifle I'd like to have" but I have only shot one and found the recoil to be a bit much but I was learning to shoot at the time. I'd like to revisit it soon though I don't think I need that much rifle.
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 07:46 PM   #20
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,089
Quote:
The sniper ammunition was a 173 grain FMJBT launched around 2550 fps.

.30 caliber sniper ammo was the M72 Match. Just looked at a box of M72 Match ammo. It says 2,640 fps. Box of M118 .7.62mm Match says 2,550 fps.
thallub is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 07:54 PM   #21
Swampghost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: Florida, east coast
Posts: 2,106
It's not that the 30-06 is a bad round, it's just been superceded by more modern rounds. At 1K yds. its predecessors were the 1873 trapdoor in 45-70 and the Krag-Jorgensen in 30-40. They, too, have fallen by the wayside in the popularity contest.

If I had only one rifle, it would be the venerable '06. You can load it down to a passable varmint rifle or pump it up enough to kill elephants.
__________________
NRA Patron Member
Swampghost is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 08:26 PM   #22
crowbeaner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,938
When I look at the terminal ballistics of both the .308 and the 30/06 loaded with RL 15 and the Alliant data booklet the '06 outruns the 308 by 150 fps give or take a couple with a 150 grain bullet. Having used both for eons and taken game with both, I simply go with the original battle cartridge. I like the .308, but the '06 will shoot heavier bullets at higher velocity because the shorter case simply doesn't have as much capacity. It is the bain of youth to reject that which your ancestors have found to be true and useful. The .308 MIGHT outshoot the '06 in CERTAIN rifles, but my money gets spent on the longer case. Let's face it folks, Gunny Hathcock used a 30/06, and with 93 confirmed one shot kills, he didn't see any reason to change. He probably could have had any rifle he chose, but he chose what worked and what he could make shots count with. I'm a cheapskate by inheritance (Dutch), and I just bought 600 LC 69 once fired '06 brass for a nickel a pop. The same .308 brass would cost me $.20 apiece. The deer won't know the difference, but the dear will.
__________________
If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk.
Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it.
I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.
crowbeaner is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 08:36 PM   #23
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,991
let me start by saying I love the 30/06.

But I remeber a American Riflemen article I found both humerous and yet some truth.It basicly stated that while always touted as THE ALL AROUND cartridge it's not ideal for anything.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 10:17 PM   #24
Mike40-11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 807
Just had this discussion at work yesterday. Guy is going elk hunting this year. He's always been a shotgun slug hunter. "So, what do you think I should get, never really shot rifles much. .270, .308, 30-06....."

My suggestion was to go with the 30-aught. Winchester 70, Ruger M77, or Remington 700. You can make an argument that you might want something with more punch if you're going specifically after elk, but the aught-six will do it. The primary benefit, as I see it, is that it is a phenomenally versatile cartridge and you can buy about a million different loads. And ANYbody who sells ammo carries 30-06.

As far as usefulness goes, the cartridge is accurate and effective to far greater distances than most shooters are. Or will ever need to be.
Mike40-11 is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 10:28 PM   #25
dmazur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2007
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,310
OK, I'll admit I'm a fan of the .30-06:

M1 Garand - for plinking
MRC 1999 bolt action w/ 6.5-20X scope - for longer range hunting
Winchester 1895 (lever action) cut to 20" carbine w/ peep sights - brush

I like 150gr FMJ for the Garand (similar to military ammo, but not identical), and 150gr Hornady SST's for hunting.

I'm aware I could buy rifles in different calibers, but I like the .30-06.
__________________
.30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong
dmazur is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13876 seconds with 10 queries