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Old July 20, 2008, 03:39 PM   #26
Dwight55
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From an unarmed mugging by a young punk, . . . to a full scale invasion by another country, . . . there seems to be one common denominator: the attacker felt confident in attacking the victim.

I truly believe in and practice not looking like a victim, . . . walking erect, being observant of my surroundings, avoiding the 3 stupids, being willing to not be the "macho in charge" of every situation, avoiding/forgiving slights or other perceived "diss-es", etc. The attacker, as DCJS aptly described, will avoid a harder target in favor of a softer, more appealing, more vulnerable appearing victim.

That is my RX for not shooting, . . .

May God bless,
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Old July 20, 2008, 04:08 PM   #27
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I took a class by Tom Givens, he gave us a lot of that same advice.

While passing on info from other credible instructors is great it looks like you are trying to give yourself credibility by using their words. And failing big time. This is probably the forth similar post I've read where input from several well known instructors was put together and presented with the "Compiled by" or "from so and so" disclaimer.

Better advice would be to advise someone to just buy Fighting Smarter if you have no original content or new ideas to add. I actually think that's still considered plagarism as there was nothing of value added to the massive quote, even if it's not it's called **** riding where I'm from.
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Old July 20, 2008, 04:16 PM   #28
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Watch what you say, who you say it to and how you say it. Don't let your mouth make you pull your weapon.
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Old July 20, 2008, 06:00 PM   #29
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Geez, If I park under a light pole the seagulls crap on my car...
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Old July 21, 2008, 04:24 PM   #30
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There are a lot of good pointers here -- thanks to all who've posted them. Most of this advice pertains to what we do when out and about in the world... I have another set of concerns, though, and I'd appreciate any input on my particular situation. I work alone, in a small storefront in a decent, mostly residential but urban neighborhood. There's no cash on the premises (would that there were more, she said laughingly...), and nothing of value visible from the street. I keep the door locked if I'm there late, but that's not practical during business hours. My dog comes to work with me, and she's my main deterrent, I guess: she's a bit of a wuss in a lot of ways, but she weighs 65# or so, she's quite territorial, and she seems to have good instincts about people: she's normally very friendly with my customers, but the few times someone I've had a bad feeling about has come to the door, she's either barked, or stood off and kept a close eye on them.

Anyone with a similar work situation? How do you discourage undesirable folks? What else should I be doing?
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Old July 21, 2008, 10:20 PM   #31
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Speak for yourself Sigma. I could care less if some anonymous person is trying to pump himself up or not. The piece was interesting and it was attributed to the original author. Leave the OP alone.
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Old July 21, 2008, 10:45 PM   #32
Hugh G Rection
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My thought is to stay out of bad situations.

Be aware of a bad situation before it develops.

REact to developing situation befoer it turns bad.
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Old July 22, 2008, 06:11 AM   #33
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+1 rb4browns

Quote:
Better advice would be to advise someone to just buy Fighting Smarter if you have no original content or new ideas to add.
What, did you write it or something? Own stock in the company? Why is it the definitive answer to the question?

Quote:
I actually think that's still considered plagarism as there was nothing of value added to the massive quote,
Wrong! If you cite/give credit to author or place you took the quote from, it's not plagarism of any sort.

Just because an idea isn't new doesn't mean it's not viable. Some people may not have heard it.

Seems like YOU didn't have anything informative to add, either.
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Old July 22, 2008, 06:17 AM   #34
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Vanya

Crooks have usually cased the place before they hit it. Believe me, they know your place doesn't have anything of much value. Most robberies are for cash or some item that be quickly pawned for a little money.

I operated a hobby shop for about three years. It was located about 3 blocks from a street that was then known as the "crack capital of the county". I knew that and wore a .38 spcl. snubbie on my hip. I had two city LEOs and one county LEO tell me that the word was out on the street. "This guy is packing and willing." They told me that's why the bandits never hit the store or me coming in or going out.

Now, that's not saying you won't ever be robbed at your place. It could happen. But the less you have to steal, the less chance of it.
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Old July 22, 2008, 06:39 AM   #35
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Vanya #2

Quote:
What else should I be doing?
Your location is a big deterrent. It sounds like a local neighborhood. Strangers will be noticed. If someone doesn't "fit" the area, they'll be remembered.

Be alert. Make eye contact with everyone as soon as they enter the store. That tells them, "I see you." Greet them, ask if you can help. Be a "presence". The dog is good. Many people are afraid of large dogs, especially if they bark.

Put an "alarm" sign in the window and a red button in a prominent place. Makes the crook think the place is wired with a panic button.

When I worked "loss prevention" for a large retail chain, we found the greatest deterrent to shoplifting was sales people all around and noticing the customers. Today, I could walk into Wal-Mart and steal them blind. There is no one on the floor. You have to send up smoke signals to get a clerk. Yea, lots of cameras, but they can't monitor them all and they can't see everywhere.

As a last resort, carry a piece, either in plain sight on your person (best place) or just under the cash drawer. Make no secret of it. Crook walks in, sees that you're packing, and walks right back out.

And speaking of that, beware of someone who comes in, looks around the store, and leaves, then comes back a little later (maybe once or twice) without buying anything. A shoplifter I caught at the hobby shop had been in twice that same day, lazily roaming and noticing EVERYTHING. Yea, I know a lot of legitimate customers do that, too, but being alert will scare off the one bad apple. There will be something about the way they act that will make your neck hairs stand up. Most of the people we caught at the retail chain were recognized as having been in several times recently.

Install a couple of dummy cameras. Crooks don't like to be on video.

I hope some of this helps.
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Old July 22, 2008, 07:01 AM   #36
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Use your mind

Think before you get in a situation. Visualize what you would do IF..Also, if you get a funky or weird feeling about some place or some One, Listen to that feeling--it is telling you that you are at risk.

As far as macho goes, I will never forget a sign I saw in a taco shop in CA : "Macho is not mucho". I believe many situations escalate because of pride, arrogance, and the need to be Macho.

Also, do not have as your friends anyone whose life is filled with odd happenings and soap opera type conflicts or who seems just not to get how to stay out of trouble.

Your mind is your best weapon and although there are times it is imperative that you use force, Benjamin Franklins' words still hold true for many situations: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
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Old July 22, 2008, 07:33 AM   #37
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+1 Bzamazama

I really like this post. Several others have said the same thing, you you did it clearly and briefly.

You, and the others, are absolutely right. The mind is the best deterrent to a shooting.

Thank you all for the excellent thoughts and plans. Some I already knew, some I learned in here. All were good for a refresher.

I AM alert to my surroundings. I DO "see" people. Sometimes I feel it necessary for them to know I see them, then I make eye contact. I try to stay out of bad areas and places. If the hair on my neck starts to rise, I leave. I'm 54 and have no need to stroke my "machismo" or ego. No "styling and profiling" here. I feel no need to antagonize to prove some senseless point. What a stranger thinks of me is of no consequence. I'm a normal person going about my normal business. Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

One thing I don't think anyone mentioned...go back and thoroughly re-read the concealed weapon laws for your state. What they say will change the way you look at a lot of things.

Most have a section that reads something like this, "...must in no way be at fault for the ensuing altercation." In other words, we must be squeaky clean. We CAN'T start something, we CAN'T escalate it. You get cut off in traffic. Is it worth pulling up beside the guy and telling him his mother was a female dog? What if he stops his car and comes at you? Do you pull your weapon and shoot him? You'll need an angel in court if you do. You started the incident. Think about this and apply it to anything that happens during your day.

We carry the power to violently and painfully end a life. When you think about it, that's a heavy responsibility, and a little scary.
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Old July 22, 2008, 04:20 PM   #38
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Thanks, Gerald

Those are some excellent pointers -- the dummy cameras and the Big Red Button are ones I hadn't thought of, and you've reminded me of another I thought of a while ago and never got around to: a nice loud bell or buzzer that'll sound when the door opens, maybe with a light wired into the circuit as well -- I am sometimes running machines in the back room, and while I try to be aware of the front door, it's hard at times.

It's a service business, not retail, so yeah, greeting people, paying attention to them, sort of goes with the territory... and 99 times out of 100 I'm happy to meet them (or at least to get their business ).

And I'm not gonna go into details, but there IS a firearm on the premises, which I sincerely hope never to need... Thanks to all who've posted their thoughts, and made it that much less likely that I will.
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Old July 22, 2008, 04:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
There are a lot of good pointers here -- thanks to all who've posted them. Most of this advice pertains to what we do when out and about in the world... I have another set of concerns, though, and I'd appreciate any input on my particular situation. I work alone, in a small storefront in a decent, mostly residential but urban neighborhood. There's no cash on the premises (would that there were more, she said laughingly...), and nothing of value visible from the street. I keep the door locked if I'm there late, but that's not practical during business hours. My dog comes to work with me, and she's my main deterrent, I guess: she's a bit of a wuss in a lot of ways, but she weighs 65# or so, she's quite territorial, and she seems to have good instincts about people: she's normally very friendly with my customers, but the few times someone I've had a bad feeling about has come to the door, she's either barked, or stood off and kept a close eye on them.

Anyone with a similar work situation? How do you discourage undesirable folks? What else should I be doing?
Yep, I quite often work alone at my pizzeria. Sometimes with a fair wad of cash and (from the BGs perspective I suppose) always the potential for cash if not the actuality. Hence my pursuit of a CC permit.

My suggestion would be to have an alarm most preferably with panic buttons in the areas you are most frequently as well as near any safe/vault. Obvious and prominent security cameras MAY deter some crimes but certainly no guarantee, good evidence either way.
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Old July 23, 2008, 08:59 AM   #40
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I worked at a used car dealership where there was a good amount of money on hand most of the time. I got my CCW for this primarily, and never had to use it thank god. The dogs help!
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Old July 23, 2008, 04:58 PM   #41
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Quote:
a nice loud bell or buzzer that'll sound when the door opens, maybe with a light wired into the circuit as well -- I am sometimes running machines in the back room, and while I try to be aware of the front door, it's hard at times
Given this, I think a buzzer of some sort would be a high priority - unless your dog alerts you consistently, you need to know when someone enters your shop.

It's your choice, but I would definitely have that firearm holstered on my person at all times, if possible. And unless you're an MRI technician, it's most likely possible.

God be with you, in any event.
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Old July 23, 2008, 05:03 PM   #42
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Oh, and on what NOT to do

Don't be like my cousin - a cute, petite blond working in a DuPont Circle tanning salon in Washington, DC. Every night at 11:30, like clockwork, after she had cleaned up, finished the bookkeeping, etc., she would lock up the shop and walk directly to the night deposit box at what was then a Riggs Bank two blocks away on DuPont Circle. Every night. At 11:30. With the day's receipts in hand. Alone.

Yes, she was robbed. Thank God, that's all the b****** wanted. Talk about Condition White!
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Old July 23, 2008, 05:27 PM   #43
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I am stuck in California, so I cannot easily legally (under this state's un-Constitutional laws) carry.

Needless to say, I avoid conflict.

I walk around like I know where I am going, and I carry myself confidently, but not snottily.

I avoid neighborhoods where I know a 6'5" white male would not be welcome.

I drive with my windows rolled up, and stay on main populated roads.

I believe for those of you who are allowed to be armed, you should think of it the way I am forced to, imagine you are un-armed- that is probably the best way to avoid a situation where you may have to shoot.
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Old July 23, 2008, 08:04 PM   #44
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Quote:
Don't be like my cousin - a cute, petite blond working in a DuPont Circle tanning salon in Washington, DC. Every night at 11:30, like clockwork, after she had cleaned up, finished the bookkeeping, etc., she would lock up the shop and walk directly to the night deposit box at what was then a Riggs Bank two blocks away on DuPont Circle. Every night. At 11:30. With the day's receipts in hand. Alone.
This is a critical point. DON'T BE PREDICTABLE!
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Old July 27, 2008, 12:47 AM   #45
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the low fuel light had been on a while and i foolishly decided to keep going instead of just turning around and heading back toward the interstate intersection gas stations because "theres always another gas station up there"

now i was in a neighborhood the locals frown upon with desert on my route and all night pumps not very well lit at a closed convience store, spooked and trying to get the gas in as quick as possible, trying to keep my head on a swivel. there was considerable traffic running through the four way stop there so i did not see what later pointed at this simply being what the guy said it was.

i turned my head and a man was walking right toward me at a fast pace.

in the truck was an arsenal, but nothing on my person.

i turned my left shoulder toward him while he was still fifteen or so feet away, put my left arm out with palm toward him, fingers spread, my right hand behind the body at waist level and bellowed in as deep a voice as i could muster, "STOP, do NOT approach any closer!" and immediately stepped back toward the passenger door.

i had a paraordance p13 in the backseat, zipped up in a soft case without a mag in the well.

there was also a mossburg 500 18 1/2 inch barreled 12 gauge in the backseat with five rounds in a holder on the stock, but again, nothing in the magazine.

he immediately started backing away, said "whoa, whoa, whoa, its ok i just need directions to such and such place."

told him i was not from the area, knew nothing about it and would appreciate being left alone.

he turned and walked off into the darkness.

i loaded the p13, stuffed it in my back pocket, finished fueling the truck.

i noticed that the guy walked over to the intersection and across it to a big rig parked over there.

i finished up and got on out of there.

the guy might have simply been a trucker looking for directions.

it may have been a mistake to appear that i was about to draw my nonexistant weapon but i calculated i might need just that instant of shock to give me time to get to one of the guns.

i may very well have been setting myself up for the kill right there by acting like i had a weapon on my person.

i do realize that a host of bad decisions went into the making of the encounter, i reckon i dont have to list em.

it has worried me greatly how badly i scared that man.

the bottom line is it would really have been my own fault if something had happened to me there that night.
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Old July 27, 2008, 09:46 PM   #46
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copenhagen said:

Quote:
...and I carry myself confidently, but not snottily.
Whenever there is a discussion about conflict avoidance, specifically about not looking like a victim, the question of posture always comes up sooner or later.

We are told to carry ourselves "with confidence". What that means precisely, I for one am not sure. I wish there were some objective standard that could be used to show me what most of the self-defense "experts" mean by a "confident posture".

But I'm at least glad to see that, in your above post, you showed an awareness that there is a difference between carrying yourself in a way that bespeaks confidence and swaggering around in a way that looks cocky and aggressive - and the line between the two can be very, very fine indeed. Actually, I think there's considerable overlap depending on whether the observer is a criminal or a member of polite society.

Gaining perspective over time, I have come to realize that I'm extremely sensitive, or tuned-in, to aggressive body language on the part of others, even to things that are far from being outright manifestations of aggression. When I see the slightest traces of the "macho swim" (arms held out from the sides as though the poser is a champion bodybuilder, even if obviously not), or someone sporting sunglasses in places where they're not needed, particularly wrap-around or mirror types, or someone who is slow to politely make way for others when quarters are tight, I think, "Geez, what a self-absorbed, posturing clown. I hope an equally hormone-laden cretin comes along and hands his lunch to him."

The thing is, in many of these cases, I really think that the people in question aren't knowingly telegraphing aggression. I'm also certain that some of you on this forum wouldn't be struck in the same way as I am by certain behavioral traits that appear, to me, aggressive or over-confident. Such people (those being observed, not TFL members) are just airheads who probably have been immersed in a particular lifestyle, and in one kind of company (their own) for most of their lives. But the underlying pugnaciousness of their physical, rather than mental, "confidence" nonetheless comes across loud and clear to some people of very different backgrounds and behavioral standards.

Point being that, though it is good to appear "confident", be aware that at least as much damage can be done by erring on the over-confident side as on the under-confident one. People who look as though they are making a display - even a subtle one - of themselves, especially in the sense of being physically poised, are sending clear, though maybe faint, signals that are going to catch the attention of those who wish to challenge or make an example of them. Not all criminal attacks are motivated by the desire for material gain, or are decided by a clear-cut risk/reward assessment. Some criminals relish selecting those who look as though they have a high opinion of their ability to take care of themselves, and then humiliating or defeating them.

Just a thought or two. Arguments can be made either way.

I'd still love to have someone actually show me his/her "confident" walk or body language. Even better, I'd like to have a sampling of many such examples gathered from people of all ages, ethnicities and both genders. Come to think of it, I wish that that bunch of photographs that some poster mentioned being shown to prison inmates for victim selection was available to the public, with the selected "victims" identified after I had a shot at it myself.
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Old July 27, 2008, 10:03 PM   #47
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We all learn from our mistakes.

Quote:
the low fuel light had been on a while and i foolishly decided to keep going
Mistake #1. Always err on the side of safety/caution.

Quote:
in the truck was an arsenal, but nothing on my person.
Mistake #2 First rule of a gunfight - bring a gun. ALWAYS be prepared. Expect the worst.

Quote:
my right hand behind the body at waist level
Mistake #3 That could have motivated a real BG to produce their own weapon. Now you're REALLY on the defensive. Never bluff.

Quote:
i reckon i dont have to list em.
I did. Not to embarrass you, but to explain to and help others.

Given the circumstances you were in, you did good.
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Old July 27, 2008, 11:33 PM   #48
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yes, i immediately realized i may very well have just killed myself by stupidity with the hand behind the waist thing.

it would have been so simple to just stick a mag in the para before i ever got out of the truck or even stick it loaded into my backpocket, and i seriously thought about doing that but i figgered the law might drive up on me and then im busted, even with it loaded in the car if they got shirty and badgered me about search.

im big guy, long long hair, big beard. i have always, and expect i will always be treated with wariness by law enforcement.

no im not whining there, its just the way it is.

the next time i get back to texas im sure heck gonna go for carry permit. i made the decision back when they started it in texas not to go for it because i felt i did not need one.

this event changed my mind.

my new wife just dont get it when i tell her to keep head up, walk confidently lookin around, catalog and make plans.

she told me i was silly when i one day told her that every minute when im out and about im thinking about cover, about which way to run, about how to go about surviving an encounter every moment.

it sounds scary when you write it out like this.

i could very well see comments by people telling me im crazy,

telling me im paranoid. guess i am.

it has gone to the point of her callin me a horses patootie, saying stuff like that dont matter.


one of my hopes in buying an AR for her is to get her shooting, get her confident, then maybe i can lead her into situational awareness.

lord knows im no expert on it, but jee whiz, how dumb do ya have to be to not practice it?

dont answer that, i already have.
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Old July 28, 2008, 06:40 PM   #49
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????? Ignorance can be overcome with education and training. DUMB, can't be fixed!!
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Old July 30, 2008, 02:55 PM   #50
David Armstrong
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Quote:
I'd still love to have someone actually show me his/her "confident" walk or body language.
You've probably seen it already. Watch how a police officer moves through a crowd, or how a military officer holds himself. Look people in the eye. Stand erect. Movements are not restrained. You are confident that you are in control of your immediate environment. Hope that helps.
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