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Old July 21, 2008, 07:25 PM   #26
DMacLeod
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Yes I think shooting would be justified. As far as the arguement of round count; After 1 or 2 had extra holes in them, I'd bet the rest would have scattered.
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Old July 21, 2008, 07:39 PM   #27
LightningJoe
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Criminals are neither tough nor brave. Those are characteristics of good people. This is probably why handguns are so effective against criminals. Handguns rarely produce physical incapacitation, but they stop fights almost all the time even in the hands of untrained people.


So, capacity and caliber would matter a lot less than the size, physical appearance, muzzle blast, and accessability of the gun. Fear and demoralization are the source of the handgun's "stopping power." Otherwise, it rarely has any.


And yes, fire away in this situation. You are, I believe, "golden."
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Old July 21, 2008, 08:06 PM   #28
lt3131
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Automatic draw and start shooting no doubt. This is the reason you have a chl, to protect you and your family. For those that have to think twice about shooting you shouldn't be packing.
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Old July 21, 2008, 09:08 PM   #29
RckyMtnHigh
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There is no question in my mind, it is justifiable for a number of reasons already outlined. I have seen too many people go through the ER and ICU that have been beaten resulting in severe debility and even death.

Also agree it does give me pause about lower round count. This story coupled with a few other stories I have seen here and on THR recently.
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Old July 21, 2008, 09:25 PM   #30
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This is exactly the kind of situation that proves that concealed carry is necessary...scum attack at any place, at any time. You think you are safe in a park with tons of people, but you are not, and these lowlives would certainly deserve getting shot....they almost killed a man who yelled at his child's molester...if that doesn't deserve a bullet in them then what does??

And HOW is this a misdemeanor?? "Gildersleeve was convicted in March 2008 of carrying a pistol without a permit in a public place, a misdemeanor."
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Old July 21, 2008, 09:28 PM   #31
Bigfatts
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Absolutely justifiable, beyond question. Prevention of a forcible felony that may cause great bodily harm. The disparity of force was also enough. How much you want to bet that a couple of them would have run at the sight of a gun? Then the next one to make a forward motion towards me would have gotten some extra ventilation, a shot to the pelvis gets the point across and is instantly incapacitating. Who knows, maybe his screams of agony would have motivated the others to leave.

And as far as it being illegal to carry a gun where he was, oh well. A little jail time is a little price to pay for the health of my family (this is one of the reasons I am such an advocate of OC, then you would have had 8 guys on the ground screaming like little girls). You also have to look beyond the immediate physical health of a rape victim. They will be forever changed or at worst mentally destroyed depending on the person. Alot never recover.
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Old July 22, 2008, 12:41 AM   #32
Hook686
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There is no doubt in my mind that situational awareness is the key to surviving in the jungle.

I am also keenly aware that a perpetrator willing to sacrafice his life to accomplish an objective is damn near impossible to defend against without weapons out and at the ready.

This cannot be done in our communities, so I figure best I can do is keep plenty of distance from everyone, and avoiud being iosolated.
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Old July 22, 2008, 04:41 AM   #33
Rifleman 173
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Yep. Without a doubt, mob action in cases like this one begs that a father with a gun should have used it to defend his family and himself from these scumbags. If we thin out the criminal gene pool enough, do you think that we could hope that criminals might become a thing of the past? We can only hope so.

Also defines why we should all carry high capacity firearms with more than 10 cartridges. A 5 shot snub nosed revolver would not have had enough ammo in the gun to be effective for a realistic program of defense against 8 determined attackers.
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Old July 22, 2008, 07:59 AM   #34
threegun
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A 5 shot snub nosed revolver would not have had enough ammo in the gun to be effective for a realistic program of defense against 8 determined attackers.
Agreed but it will be argued that none would have been "determined" after the first 5 took lead.
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Old July 22, 2008, 08:20 AM   #35
buzz_knox
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Criminals are neither tough nor brave. Those are characteristics of good people. This is probably why handguns are so effective against criminals.
There are a lot of dead individuals, both LEO and non-LEO, who had the same idea.

Criminals are people, with as many different motivations for action as your average group. Some are cowards. Others are bullies. Others are looking at a third strike and want to kill witnesses to stay out of prison. Others don't care if they are alive or dead. Others may cut and run, but won't when they see that one of their pack is standing their ground.

If you rely on a criminal to be a coward, you are underestimating your opponent. That is one of the surest ways of achieving failure.

Last edited by buzz_knox; July 22, 2008 at 10:02 AM. Reason: I hate typos.
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Old July 22, 2008, 09:15 AM   #36
CPTMurdoc30
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The other story I read about this incadent said that the father started yelling at 2 of the thugs after they slapped his 12 yo daughter on the buttocks (That right there will get you shot by me quick fast and in a hurry I don't care what the law says). After yelling the two thugs called for backup and 6 more showed up. Why did he hang around. Retreat and call police I say first if they follow you to your car and start trying to enter the car then start shooting or start running them over.

It did no good to hang around and start a fight with 8 guys. If they jumped him then Latch on to the smallest one and try very hard to break every bone in his scrawny crack head body. By the time they get you off you more than likely have put a serious hurting on him.

I am not one to fist fight but touching my 12 year old daughter (Mine is 11 right now) is going to really **** me the hell off. Kick my azz all you want but prepair to die if you touch my wife or kids.
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Old July 22, 2008, 10:03 AM   #37
MLeake
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Agree with Buzz Knox

It's PC to talk about bullies being inherently cowardly, and suffering from self-esteem issues.

However, it's not necessarily correct. Recent studies have shown that bullies often have highly elevated self-esteem.

And some of the monsters out there are very, very tough. In most packs, there will be at least one Alpha.

My sensei used to always tell us, when teaching weapon disarms, that in the real thing, you had to enter the conflict knowing that you would probably get cut, and you had to be ready to continue after being cut.

It's better tactics to assume the bad guys will fight, and will be competent, than to assume they will all flee in terror when you draw down. It's better tactics to train to a level where you have a chance against tough, determined aggressors.

On a separate note, one problem with the concept of armed defense at the county fair:

In Florida, you can't carry legally at public gatherings. Georgia has recently revised the laws, but I'm not sure if an event like a fair is legal for CCW. I am pretty sure that most states would frown on carrying at the fair.

Regards,

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Old July 22, 2008, 10:17 AM   #38
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It's PC to talk about bullies being inherently cowardly, and suffering from self-esteem issues.
No one is arguing some of these punks are legitimately tough. After all, they spend most of their time fighting off "Mama Bubba" and lifting weights while living at the expense of the state. All anyone is suggesting that flight is a possibility.

As for being prepared to go the distance, I don't think anyone is suggesting they would shoot one, then stop and see what the others do. We've ALL been taught in our respective CWP classes, "Shoot until the threat is negated."

However, most people, no matter how tough, would not go (unarmed) up against a gun, no matter how many there are. You drill one dead center then cycle to the next one and I can pretty much guarantee he's gonna take a long think about his next action. Muscle doesn't compare to bullets and staring into a muzzle is intimidating to anyone.

Your point IS taken, though. ALWAYS be prepared to go all the way.
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Old July 22, 2008, 02:29 PM   #39
gyrfalcon16
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In Minnesota he could have taken steps to using deadly force...

At least three conditions must concur to excuse or justify homicide under SSSS 609.06 and 609.065:

(1) The killing must have been done in the belief that it was necessary to avert death or grievous bodily harm.

(2) The judgment of the defendant as to the gravity of the peril to which he was exposed must have been reasonable under the circumstances.

(3) The defendant's election to kill must have been such as a reasonable man would have made in light of the danger to be apprehended.

Personally I feel he was justified to shoot them before they messed with his daughter.
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Old July 22, 2008, 03:25 PM   #40
buzz_knox
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However, most people, no matter how tough, would not go (unarmed) up against a gun, no matter how many there are. You drill one dead center then cycle to the next one and I can pretty much guarantee he's gonna take a long think about his next action. Muscle doesn't compare to bullets and staring into a muzzle is intimidating to anyone.
People fight with cops (who tend to be armed) all the time. All too many of them win. Crooks fight with other crooks (who also tend to be armed) quite a bit, and often win. Convenience store workers are known to grapple with armed robbers, and often win. Disarm techniques are a major field of study, in police academies, training courses, and prisons.

The only guarantee that can be made is that no one has a clue what will happen. And while you are staring down one or two, the other 6 are circling to grab you. Keep waving the weapon around to put them all under the muzzle, and you've marked yourself as prey who will fall.
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