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Old July 14, 2008, 10:07 PM   #51
rb4browns
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#2 Draw when you perceive a threat. I draw, and release the safety upon completion. Use the drawn gun and verbal commands, "Stop or I'll shoot!", to force the perp to back down or to effect your escape. If the threat escalates, do not hesitate to pull the trigger. Don't wait until the last moment to draw, you may not have a last moment at that point.

Scenario:
A perp approaches with a gun in his hand, pointing at the ground. You draw yours and point it at his chest. He stops. "Drop the gun!" over and over. As long as he's not advancing and hasn't raised the gun, there's no need to fire. He's in your sights, if he even twitches that gun hand or continues to advance, you have him cold.
If a perp approaches with a gun in his hand I draw and fire immediately. You are a dead man walking if you think you "have him cold." The only time you truly have a man with a gun "cold" is after he has died from the shock or wound channels your hollowpoints have inflicted or he has bled out on the sidewalk.
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Old July 15, 2008, 05:58 PM   #52
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My point is that if I perceive a threat, then I will act! I'm not going to wait until someone suspicious gets the upper hand!!
So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize, but not regret following my instincts and training.
Concealed carry is useless unless you have the common sense to know a threat when you see it.
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Old July 15, 2008, 05:59 PM   #53
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So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize, but not regret following my instincts and training.
You left out the last part..."go to jail."
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Old July 15, 2008, 06:28 PM   #54
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As a cover-all for most situations, I would say I fit into category #2. Obviously there could be situations that would sway my feelings, but lets hope those never come about
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Old July 15, 2008, 07:35 PM   #55
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Go to jail for what! I'd rather take my chances with the law, than wait for the BG to shoot me because I took too much time to analyze his mental state.Your imagined restraint will get you killed!
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Old July 15, 2008, 07:43 PM   #56
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Go to jail for what! I'd rather take my chances with the law, than wait for the BG to shoot me because I took too much time to analyze his mental state.Your imagined restraint will get you killed!
Wow, do you really believe this stuff? Or are just a Rambo type on the internet?

You ever pull your gun on me without just cause and I will do everything in my power to see you in jail and loose your right to carry.
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Old July 15, 2008, 08:06 PM   #57
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No Rambo here! Just a regular guy that does believe that stuff! Would welcome defending myself in court.
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Old July 15, 2008, 08:06 PM   #58
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Would welcome defending myself in court.
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Old July 15, 2008, 08:51 PM   #59
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Definitely #2.

Further, no offense, but I would feel pretty comfortable with PBP having my back - both during a tense situation and afterwards, speaking with the police. Avenger, man you would get us both stuck in the pokey. At least in the States I've lived in... That, or you live a charmed life and know every judge/leo in your locale. That attitude just wouldn't work in Daytona, St Louis or Indy. No way on the west coast, where those folks have to fight for CCW rights tooth and nail.
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Old July 15, 2008, 08:59 PM   #60
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Further, no offense, but I would feel pretty comfortable with PBP having my back - both during a tense situation and afterwards, speaking with the police. Avenger, man you would get us both stuck in the pokey. At least in the States I've lived in... That, or you live a charmed life and know every judge/leo in your locale. That attitude just wouldn't work in Daytona, St Louis or Indy. No way on the west coast, where those folks have to fight for CCW rights tooth and nail.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but you might want to find someone to have your back that would be less likely to run away at the first sign of trouble than me.

As for Avenger11, I think that is all an internet put on or at least bluff. Anyone that actually acted like that would either be in prison or run out of guns after people kept feeding them to them (if they were lucky enough to have them chose that particular orifice to deposit the gun into).
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Old July 16, 2008, 01:05 AM   #61
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LOL...well spoken Master Splinter! Keep the Foot Clan in line!
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Old July 16, 2008, 06:34 PM   #62
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So we invest in firearms, training and range time only to retreat at the first sign of trouble??? Call it an internet put on or bluff, but I take my SD seriously. Just glad I don't live in the liberal Pussific Northwest!!
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Old July 16, 2008, 06:39 PM   #63
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So we invest in firearms, training and range time only to retreat at the first sign of trouble??? Call it an internet put on or bluff, but I take my SD seriously. Just glad I don't live in the liberal Pussific Northwest!!
*giggle* You're funny.
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Old July 16, 2008, 06:56 PM   #64
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Having plans, being aware, knowing where cover is in a parking garage, etc. make good sense.

However, preconceived, unflexible plans that never seem to fit the situation, based on inexperientially derived fantasies, are what all the bickering seems to be about. Back and forth, back and forth, like prepubscents at recess.

Those who have actually been there indicate that things happen real fast, turn to confusion and caos. Most always.

Seems to me that drawing a weapon when an attack looks imminent, but before it actually begins makes sense. Might not be time to access your weapon, otherwise.

But even that is highly subjective and subject to scrutiny by the court system. But, then again, any SD situation involving a gun is going to be anyway. Draw too fast, it's brandishing. Draw too late--well you get the idea.

Nothin' personal. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 16, 2008 at 11:43 PM.
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Old July 16, 2008, 09:18 PM   #65
Scattergun Bob
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Define a Threat

In the heat of some of our posts I often forget to go back to the basics. It seems that some of the discussion is about the understanding of what is a threat.

My defension of "threat" is fairly basic and easy to understand (read flash identify) and it has nothing to do with: "So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize"

Rule # 2. Know exactly when I can use my gun.

A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:

the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)

the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)

his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough)

When all 3 of these element are in place simultaneously, THIS IS A THREAT STIMULUS!
The response to a threat stimulus ; zero muzzle, flash sight picture, exercise trigger control, deliver a minimum response.

There may be better ways of explaining a Threat, but in my opion this is the minimum required.

"If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize" if you focus my attention on you by drawing for no reason, you may not have the chance.
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Old July 16, 2008, 09:35 PM   #66
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So we invest in firearms, training and range time only to retreat at the first sign of trouble???
Absolutely right. The perfect scenario is where no one gets hurt, killed, or robbed, etc. Retreating buys you TIME - very important! Some states MANDATE that you retreat if possible.

If I can retreat with my weapon, take cover, and not have to engage - I've won the fight.

If retreating buys me a couple of seconds to get my gun out and properly aimed to I can get off stopping shots - I've won the fight.

If I am alert and sense trouble starting and I get the heck out of Dodge without having to engage - I've won the fight.

We invest in firearms, training and range time so, if we can't retreat, we can meet the threat successfully.
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Old July 16, 2008, 10:16 PM   #67
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My point is that if I perceive a threat, then I will act! I'm not going to wait until someone suspicious gets the upper hand!!
So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize, but not regret following my instincts and training.
Concealed carry is useless unless you have the common sense to know a threat when you see it.
I used to ride a Honda Goldwing touring bike and every year the Harley crowd would have their annual rally/kegger party here in one of the Northern California towns. Harley riders vary from the Christian M/C club (some are priests and ministers) to the Hells Angels. But they don't really care for "rice burners". But gnarly, tough, suspicious they can be (plus many are ex-cons). Fortunately I have a sense of humor and knowing Sonny Barger personally helped. Drawing a gun on some of these guys is a good way to find out what it tastes like.

You'd be a lot of fun there. I imagine you'd be about as confused as a baby in a topless bar.

There are parts of East San Jose or L.A. where if you draw, it will only escalate the situation if you aren't Hispanic yourself. The guy may back away, but four, six or nine others may start shouting at you in angry tones.

It is one thing to "prepare", by discretely withdrawing the gun and having it alongside your leg because the three guys appear to be following you. Or to covertly transfer it to a jacket pocket as you approach a stairwell or elevator.

But it's inappropriate to draw and point a weapon unless you know there is an actual threat.
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Old July 17, 2008, 04:31 AM   #68
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Old July 17, 2008, 09:13 AM   #69
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I'm from the school of "better to be safe than sorry". If I feel there is a threat, I'm not going to hesitate to take my firearm out. Remember it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, and I don't want to end up in the ground because I was the nice guy giving the benefit of the doubt.
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Old July 17, 2008, 04:12 PM   #70
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BillCA

Other than the old Alam Rock Cafe and over priced Reeds Gun shop, why in the world would you what to travel in "that part" of East San Jose?
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Old July 17, 2008, 06:18 PM   #71
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Ok, so I'm going to stand there trying to analyze the BG's ability, opportunity, and intent??? Give me a break!! I'll be dead by that time!! At my age with bad knees, retreat is not an option.
If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.
BG's rely on your lack of training, hesitancy, and vulnerability!!
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Old July 17, 2008, 10:07 PM   #72
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#1 for bad guys...click-bang

#2 for bad dogs
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Old July 17, 2008, 10:07 PM   #73
Scattergun Bob
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Avenger11

I suggest that it takes less time to recognize a threat using this classic method, than you can trying your "method", or rather NO METHOD.

"So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw"! these are your words, and they do not justify drawing in my state. I really don't care if you like it, it simply is what it is.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old July 18, 2008, 03:33 PM   #74
BillCA
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Ok, so I'm going to stand there trying to analyze the BG's ability, opportunity, and intent??? Give me a break!! I'll be dead by that time!! At my age with bad knees, retreat is not an option.
If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.
The acronym is MMO - Means, Motive, Opportunity. It's much easier that you'd guess.

If a person has a weapon or clenches his hands into fists, he has the means by which to commit an assault upon your person.

Motive can be established explicitly through threats, words or actions. Implicitly it can be established through actions, such as one or more persons following, chasing, or simply approaching in a 'rude, angry or threatening manner'.

Opportunity - if they're there and within useful striking distance of any weapons they have, they have the opportunity.

So, yes, you can calculate the threat using MMO and you probably do it on your own. I'd not draw on some cretin with a baseball bat who is yelling threats at me from across a 4-lane divided highway. Nor should you.

If I'm walking to my car in a parking garage and notice a pair of scuzzy types that appear to be following or looking to intercept, withdrawing my sidearm and keeping a low profile might be warranted. Especially if they continue after I abruptly change course or backtrack.
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Old July 18, 2008, 04:08 PM   #75
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Ok, so I'm going to stand there trying to analyze the BG's ability, opportunity, and intent??? Give me a break!! I'll be dead by that time!! At my age with bad knees, retreat is not an option.

If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.

BG's rely on your lack of training, hesitancy, and vulnerability!!
It's amazing how vehemently some people will defend their own ignorance -- and the last sentence is truly ... ironic ... in view of the first one.

Lack of training is indeed a killer. So is hesitancy, even more so. But knowing the rules of engagement does not cause hesitancy. Rather, knowing the rules enables you to act swiftly and decisively when the moment of truth arrives.

If you've had the training, analyzing a situation as it unfolds isn't a complex hairy deal. It's just part of understanding what is going on and making smart plans to deal with it.

If you haven't had the training, the basic concepts sound so complex that you are certain it's impossible to understand anything at all, and are reduced to making choices based upon nothing more than ignorant guesses and feelings.

Too bad!

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