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Old July 13, 2008, 04:32 PM   #26
Hawg Haggen
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#2 in most cases. I have been on company property in a bad section of New Orleans after dark. In that case my gun is in my hand at all times cocked and ready to fire.
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Old July 13, 2008, 06:00 PM   #27
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nate45:

I'm expecting to be told I should have tried to clearly identify the threat before drawing or something. I just absolutely could not see a face, just a shape.

I will say that the 400 I spent with Rangemaster for a training class they brought to my neck of the woods saved our family a tremendous amount of grief. Drawing to low ready unless your life is immediately in danger was drilled into us pretty well. So was shouting stop, don't move, or drop it. I elected for stop during training (less stuff to remember), he told me that's what made him freeze, he knew I had my gun on him before he even looked back.

Sorry if that is a semi-thread jack. Just trying to reinforce that #2 is probably the best way to defend yourself. Prevent yourself from doing something you shouldn't AND not allowing someone to get the drop on you if you can avoid it.
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Old July 13, 2008, 06:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
My personal philosophy is to never draw until the threat has reached a critical level; but if you wait until there is no other option than to fire, you have made a serious tactical error.

I believe that pulling my CCW is my next to last resort...firing it is the last resort. I am a civilian engaging in the act of self defense. I am not a samurai warrior.
This is my own personal philosophy as well.
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Old July 13, 2008, 06:17 PM   #29
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#2
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Old July 13, 2008, 06:25 PM   #30
Erik
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"Which of these statements most fits your philosophy when drawing your gun?"

#2.
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Old July 13, 2008, 06:30 PM   #31
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Definately #2, but somewhat encroaching on #3. They go somewhat hand in hand in some instances, but not all.

I understand that drawing alone may de-escalate the situation, but dangit, if I feel threatened for my life or for the loved ones around me, I am fully anticipating to engage and pour forth the wrath of my firearm and any physical training I have to protect them. The very act of drawing my firearm with intent to use it speaks volumes of the severity of the situation at hand. I hope to never be put in that situation, but should that day come...

I agree with Rampage and his quote.
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Old July 13, 2008, 08:20 PM   #32
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A simple answer

#3 -- Always!

#2 teaches indecision.

Remember, when seconds count, the police are minutes away, they also bring pen and paper to the scene.

In my humble opinion #2 borders on brandishing. There is a movie line that sums up my feelings/beliefs on the topic.

"If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk about it." -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
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Old July 13, 2008, 08:23 PM   #33
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*sniff* *sniff*...I think I smell a "Hotdog On A Stick."

There must be a mall ninja nearby.

Quote:
#3 -- Always!
Good luck in prison if you ever have to use you CCW and you pull the trigger simply because you feel duty bound to fire once it is drawn..
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Old July 13, 2008, 08:44 PM   #34
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No mall crazy here!

The key to my answer is when do you draw?

It doesn't mean I'm trigger happy, just means that I've considered the situation and the consequences and shooting is justified (proper) response. Until then the weapon remains in the holster. You know as well as I, that drawing leads to accidental discharges when in the moment.

Unfortunately, all situations are shades of gray, and it is difficult to define the situational conditions that dictate whether to shoot or not, until I've made the decision to shoot, the weapon remains in its holster. Once I've made the decision to shoot, drawing is just the act of a reasoned decision.

Tried by twelve rather than carried by six.

I hope this clarifies my opinion/position.
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Old July 13, 2008, 10:01 PM   #35
B.N.Real
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#2 or you might as well not own a handgun.
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Old July 13, 2008, 10:17 PM   #36
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#2
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Old July 13, 2008, 10:23 PM   #37
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Let's put it this way.

That guy has a gun, poses a clear threat to my life (such as waking up to see a guy with a gun breaking in)and could pump me full of lead in an instant, he's getting blasted until he hits the floor.

If I find someone robbing my house unarmed or a perp does not have the ability to easily kill me or others, he's getting a warning and a strong hint to get on the floor while someone else calls 911.
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Old July 13, 2008, 10:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
"If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk about it." -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
This isn't a movie, it's real life. If you wait until it's time to shoot, the 2 seconds (if you're really good) it takes to get your gun out and aimed may just be two seconds too long.

The police don't wait until it's time to shoot. They got the BG drawn down on and dead to rights. Now it's "Drop the gun, get down on the ground." over and over. If he drops it, the situation is over, NO SHOTS FIRED, EVERYONE ALIVE. And despite what some in here may wish, THAT'S the perfect scenario. If he even twitches that gun hand, he's dead on the spot. What's the advantage in waiting until the last split second to draw?
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Old July 13, 2008, 11:02 PM   #39
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What About #5?

#5 Walk around locked, cocked, and ready to rock. Shoot first, ask questions later. Dead BG's make the best witnesses. It's either that.......or the truth....... which is #2.
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Old July 13, 2008, 11:11 PM   #40
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Quote:
The key to my answer is when do you draw?
Then I think you meant to chose #1 and not #3.
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Old July 13, 2008, 11:48 PM   #41
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Of the options, the only one that makes any real sense is #2, IMHO. And that's pretty much the way things are for me.

There might be a time when I simply draw and fire. No words, warnings or anything. But if we practice our situational awareness even a little bit, we stand a very good chance of avoiding the situation or being prepared for the criminal.


Quote:
1. Never draw until the last second when there is no other option but to fire immediately.
a) You then stake your physical ability to draw & fire against that of someone already in the act of attempting to seriously hurt you.
b) As some 91.7% of firearms incidents end without a shot fired1 when the defender displays a firearm, why would you deprive yourself of a less-than-lethal opportunity to end a confrontation?


Quote:
2. Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.
"Sufficient level" will depend upon the capability of the defender to respond to the threat level. An older person or one with a physical disadvantage cannot necessarily wait until the last second.

Quote:
3. Always fire your weapon if you ever have to draw it... period.
Such absolutist statements are frightening. They also assume blazing speed on the draw. In the 1.5 seconds a reasonably fast CCW draw might take your attacker may turn and flee or otherwise cease his threat. What then? Shoot a fleeing person? Shoot a surrendering subject? Can you say can of worms?

Quote:
4. I will draw if I have to but would never fire my weapon.
This begs the question of why you even have a firearm with you in the first place. Return gun to safe, work on mindset and legal understandings before carrying again.



Footnote:
1. From 1993 Kleck-Gertz study on defensive gun use.
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Old July 14, 2008, 12:32 AM   #42
DeathRodent
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I would go with # 2.

A good example is you are answering a door late at night you may want the gun drawen and your hand along your side not brandishing but more available than having to draw.

Although when I was in the military we were taught to draw, aim and fire and all three never only draw or aim because if the threat was serious rnough to draw you hd better shoot.

I think a BIG part of the reason is they didn't want young GIs playing around with their weapons realizing that if the gun was in the holster there was less chance of an NG.
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Old July 14, 2008, 03:47 AM   #43
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I'd agree with #2 but I have read somewhere while doing research on a anti gun control law paper for a writing class I was taking and happened to read somewhere that 95% of crimes stopped with out the civilian even un-holstering the weapon, the mere presentation of it in a holster was enough to deter a lot of threats. I can't remember where I read it but it made me think to myself about your particular question. Personally I came to the conclusion if someone poses a threat to me where I would feel the need to show my weapon, I would not leave it in the holster. If I'm going to show a BG my firearm its going to be fixed center mass on him and he will get one warning to run a way. If someone doesn't run from a gun pointed at them they have a serious problem.

BTW I made so many good points about how most gun control laws are only punishing law abiding citizens that my Professor LOVED IT. He liked it so much, and he is neither for or against guns btw, but he kept it to show to future classes. If I can find it I will post it up, but I'm not a professional writer by any means.
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Old July 14, 2008, 08:06 AM   #44
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BillCA wrote,

Quote:
Such absolutist statements are frightening. They also assume blazing speed on the draw. In the 1.5 seconds a reasonably fast CCW draw might take your attacker may turn and flee or otherwise cease his threat. What then? Shoot a fleeing person? Shoot a surrendering subject? Can you say can of worms?
Can you say, Joe Horne?
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Old July 14, 2008, 05:00 PM   #45
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None of the above! I will draw my weapon at the very first sign of a threat and fire if it escalates. I'm not going to try and Psycho- analyze the BG before I ACT!! Your instincts and training will determine your actions, not a bunch of what ifs! Therefore this thread makes little sense.
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Old July 14, 2008, 05:06 PM   #46
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None of the above! I will draw my weapon at the very first sign of a threat and fire if it escalates
So, are you going to be pulling a gun on everyone that walks behind you in a parking garage or looks at you funny at a bus stop and then just see where it goes???

You statement is screaming for a little more clarification.
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Old July 14, 2008, 05:24 PM   #47
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2. Draw your weapon as soon as a threat reaches a sufficient level and only fire if threat continues.

This would be the group I fall into.
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Old July 14, 2008, 08:27 PM   #48
Avenger11
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You totally missed the point! First, there has to be a threat, not imagined, not based on internet could be's, or what if's! When a real threat is presented, then your instincts and training will dictate your reaction.
If you still require clarification, then explain your lack of understanding of the basics CCW?
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Old July 14, 2008, 08:55 PM   #49
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You totally missed the point! First, there has to be a threat, not imagined, not based on internet could be's, or what if's! When a real threat is presented, then your instincts and training will dictate your reaction.
If you still require clarification, then explain your lack of understanding of the basics CCW?
What do you consider a threat? How do you know your perception of a threat is accurate? At what point do you decide to draw your weapon? Your first post makes it sound like you draw the very second you perceive any type of threat. Does that mean if I happen to be parked next to you in a parking garage and happen to be walking right behind you from the elevator to your car you are going to whirl around and pull your gun on me? That is a complete lack of understanding the rules of defense. At the first perception of a threat you do not automatically jump to guns drawn. You quickly analyze the situation and proceed accordingly. You are skipping a lot of essential steps. That is asking to loose your CCL and perhaps spend a nice quite time in the country jail getting to know the dregs of society.
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Old July 14, 2008, 10:01 PM   #50
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perhaps spend a nice quite time in the country jail getting to know the dregs of society.
Hey!, I met some fine folks in the county jail!
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