The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 11, 2008, 07:14 PM   #26
ActivShootr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2007
Posts: 1,040
I think the .327 is a solution to a problem that never really existed.
ActivShootr is offline  
Old July 11, 2008, 09:05 PM   #27
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,089
For the nay-sayers and doubters - the .327 does fill a much needed gap between the .38 Special and .357 Magnum. In purely muzzle energy, it's comparable to the .40 S&W and falls between the 9mm and .357 Magnum in power.

That's pretty doggone good for a small caliber gun that promises recoil low enough to make it suitable for smaller shooters.

This chart shows the muzzle energy comparisons.


Where the .327 really comes into an advantage is in urban and suburban defensive situation. Using an 85g to 115g bullet, even at up to 1400 fps, over-penetration should not be a serious problem.

This cartridge will certainly replace the old .32-20, a good performer for its size. It begs for a lightweight lever gun model too. If S&W would resurrect the Model 16 with a 5-inch barrel for use on a ranch or outdoors, it'd make a formidible coyote round. A 2.5 or 3-inch barrel with fixed sights on a K-Frame M&P would make a great carry/home gun too. Heck, resurrect the Airweight K-Frame Model 12 M&P and stuff it full of .327's and that'd be a dandy hiker/backpacker gun. With 4 types of ammo available, you could shoot anything from squirrel to coyote (perhaps even a wolf, but that would be in desperation I think).
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 11, 2008, 11:02 PM   #28
Crosshair
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,320
Well, all I have are 32 H&Rs, but they are Rugers, so I hot-rod them. With the 327 you can get 357 trajectory with 38 special recoil. My 32 H&Rs are very fun at the range. Low recoil for extended shooting, flat shooting for when I am screwing around and plinking at the 50 and 100 yard plates. (Still working on the 100 yard plate. Need to have the front sight of my 32 H&R Single-Six worked on.)

I think the 327 will make it.
__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.
Crosshair is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 12:11 AM   #29
John Moses
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 161
Actually Bill,

Your chart shows the versatility of the .357 mag since it encompasses what the 327 offers.
John Moses is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 12:44 AM   #30
Sidetracked
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2008
Location: Henrietta, FL
Posts: 306
Quote:
Your chart shows the versatility of the .357 mag since it encompasses what the 327 offers.
A good observation, and something that can't really be argued.

But, if you don't want the .357 Mag... it doesn't do you any good. I want the .327 Federal for what it is.

The .357 serves different purposes in my arsenal.
__________________
Feel free to disagree with my opinion. -I do it all the time.
Sidetracked is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 08:10 AM   #31
John Moses
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 161
Quote:
if you don't want the .357 Mag... it doesn't do you any good.
Not trying to be recalcitrant but why would you not want a .357?

Quote:
The .357 serves different purposes in my arsenal.
Which is?
John Moses is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 10:19 AM   #32
Smaug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 3,179
BillCA, thanks for that excellent energy chart.

I'm with John Moses here, not that it matters, hehehe. It also shows the versatility of 45 ACP.

I agree that this could be sweet in a nice carbine of some sort.

I bet the cowboy/girl shooters would really eat it up.
Smaug is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 10:21 AM   #33
Smaug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 3,179
BillCA, do you have a chart like that which also includes 380 ACP, 10mm, 41 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt and 454 Casull? (I'm thinking you made it yourself, so you may have others on hand...)
Smaug is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 10:53 AM   #34
gak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2005
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 2,767
I've heard some here talk about how Ruger (and perhaps Federal) is being smart in its little playing-hard-to-get game. If that's their tactic, it's being foolish and ultimately risks market anger and dis-interest...a really dumb thing to do IMO with a new round/firearms supposedly Ruger and Federal would like to drum up interest in. Yes, some of us are salivating at the prospects of a SP101 and, hopefully some single actions and Smith Js/Ks down the line, as well as some levers mentioned (the idea of a .327 in a Rossichestersport 92 can really get me salivating), etc.

This is a heck of a way to keep market interest. I'm a big .32 Mag fan and have several guns in...but I was a relatively rare and stubborn (some said foolishly over the years) hold-out through their (and ammo manufacturers) stumbling around - and not marketing very well in the 80s and 90s...to the point of near-total disinterest in the gun-buying public. Somehow, my interest remained strong as I saw the greatness of the little round that could...even in the relatively mild factory loadings they were supposedly sticking to over time as an acknowledgment of some of the crappy - or let's say at least weaker - H&Rs lingering (Colt's felt that a long time re factory loadings for their SAAs). In this case, it's time for Ruger and Federal to really knock it out of the park, now that they've stepped up to the plate (sort of). Again, just my .02.
gak is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 11:07 AM   #35
sandbag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2008
Posts: 626
I don't think a Model 12 Airweight can handle the chamber pressure generated by a .327 Federal Magnum-I have a Model 12 and it is not recommended to even shoot .38+p in it.I have the SP101 in .327 and I also have three .357's(Python,19,28)-I'm not prejudiced
sandbag is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 02:31 PM   #36
Sidetracked
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2008
Location: Henrietta, FL
Posts: 306
Quote:
Quote:
if you don't want the .357 Mag... it doesn't do you any good.
Not trying to be recalcitrant but why would you not want a .357?
I grew tired of the muzzle blast, violent recoil, and ear-shattering report of the .357 Mag. (Yes, I use hearing protection; but I also hunted with it.) I still own one K frame S&W in .357, but it is only used for .38 Special plinking.

If I have a legitimate use in mind (Hunting, target practice, Home Defense, personal defense), I always find myself reaching for something else. From bottom to top, it could be anything from .380 ACP, to 9mm, to 10mm, to .44 Special/Mag, to .45 ACP.

The .357 Mag cartridge is a wonderful thing. I will not deny that. However, I want to give the .327 a try. Muzzle blast and an ear-shattering report may come with the package, but it's something else to throw in the line-up or leave on the nightstand. It will also give me .40 S&W/10mm power in a revolver, without using (half)moon clips.


Quote:
Quote:
The .357 serves different purposes in my arsenal.
Which is?
At one time, I had 4 S&Ws chambered in .357 Mag. I used to hunt with them. I used to carry them as SD guns while hiking. I used to do a lot of things with them. Now, the only survivor is basically a paper weight that stretches its legs to plink a few times a year; if it's lucky.



And, back to your first question:
Quote:
Not trying to be recalcitrant but why would you not want a .357?
Why would you not want a .416 Rigby? Why would you not want a .257 Roberts or a 7mm-08? Why would you not want a .25-20? Who, in their right mind, would not want a .30-06?
It is all a matter of personal preference, experience, and application.

I own several .22 LRs, a .22 WMR, a .22 Hornet, a .223 Rem, a .220 Swift, a .243 Win., and a .270 Win. just for my 'small' caliber rifle line up. They can be stretched, or loaded down to cover anything I hunt or shoot; with varmints being covered pretty heavilly by the mid-range of that spread. I won't even get started on how each rifle also has its own combination of stock, scope, trigger, barrel dimenions, rifling, chamber tolerances, and weight, which also contribute to how the rifles are used. Many people ask why I own XX caliber when I already have XX. It's not just a cartridge. The design of the rifles themselves contributes immensely to how that cartridge performs. It's the total package.


When I look at a cartridge or firearm, I'm not just looking blindly at a ballistics chart, or the design of the weapon itself. I'm looking at how everything will work together.

For me, it's the total package. The SP101 .327 Federal is a package I want. And, I probably wouldn't mind trying it in a 7.5" Redhawk, either.
__________________
Feel free to disagree with my opinion. -I do it all the time.
Sidetracked is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 02:43 PM   #37
wingman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2002
Posts: 2,077
If smith gears up and produces a j frame in 327 I will buy. Is it possible to have too many calibers.
wingman is offline  
Old July 12, 2008, 02:49 PM   #38
John Moses
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 161
sidetracked

Thank you for the well thought out response. And please do not misunderstand...I like guns. Big guns, little guns. Elephant guns. mini guns, miniguns, shotguns. You name it.

If this is your caliber I am glad it came along.

My query concerning why you would want this caliber when it would be easier to load down a .357 was from my perspective, which hinges upon versatility. Some folks don't "roll their own" and therefore have to tolerate the blast and recoil of whatever is available in their local stores.

Of course some people like to have the more unique round. I know 41 magnum guys. Great round but takes extra effort to support. They seem to LIKE the fact that they have to scramble around for brass and get to complain when they have problems.

What I am saying is that it is not my intention to put down on anyone’s choice. Just like to understand.
John Moses is offline  
Old July 13, 2008, 11:07 AM   #39
BIGR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2000
Location: Mountains
Posts: 1,247
Being that I have two S & W's in 357 I don't think I am going to rush out and by some new caliber just yet. Just like the new caliber frenzy of rifles, these new calibers don't do much more than the calibers thats already here and that have proven themselves over the years. Maybe Ruger thought 327 sounded neat like the chevy 327 small block engine. Don't get me wrong if I didn't already have two 357's and was looking to purchase a new revolver, then I would give the .327 a try.
BIGR is offline  
Old July 13, 2008, 11:14 AM   #40
gak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2005
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 2,767
These are all good responses - and questions. As an ardent .32 H&R Mag fan (and .357, .40, .45, etc), I too am looking forward to the new-ish upstart...and judging from early reports (Gunblast, etc.) looking forward to it flourishing. Especially since I don't load (maybe "should" but don't at the moment), I too find the .357 - when shot in mag form in most of its "mag" loadings - to be pretty (and unnecessarily for most duty) obnoxious in the blast department "at the wrong end" (while acknowledging results at the "right end")....and so welcome any alternatives to try out, even if they are not exactly apples and apples in all respects. 6 rounds in a package that normally accepts only 5 (or 7 in a normal 6 rounder) is always a good thing to me, especially when the approximate, practical results for the mission are at least similar. Even so, I understand (and fully appreciate) the versatility the .357 package represents as well and will keep my Ks and Blackhawk/New Vaqueros in that cartridge for the goodness they represent. It's just that - when something slightly smaller with less sturm und drang comes along, especially in the carry/SD or pest/varminting categories, gotta look at it!
gak is offline  
Old July 13, 2008, 11:51 AM   #41
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandbag
I don't think a Model 12 Airweight can handle the chamber pressure generated by a .327 Federal Magnum-I have a Model 12 and it is not recommended to even shoot .38+p in it
I agree... though I was thinking of the Model 12 as being a kind of template. S&W used to make a .32-20 M&P model in the pre-war days. I think an Airweight/Scandium M&P in .327 Magnum would be a big hit with the hiking & camping and perhaps fishing crowd. Especially with 4 power levels to choose from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moses
Actually Bill,

Your chart shows the versatility of the .357 mag since it encompasses what the 327 offers.
Not trying to be recalcitrant but why would you not want a .357?
The .357 is a truely versatile cartridge. If limited to just one caliber, that would have to be my selection.

However, for a small carry-gun, the .357 can be a real handful to use, especially in a single hand. In J or K frame guns, especially as we get older, the wrenching, jarring recoil can take a serious toll on joints. I'm not especially recoil sensitive - my favorite caliber being .41 Magnum - but I also recognize the .357 is not ideal for self-defense for a lot of shooters.

The .327 Mag puts out plenty of Whoop-a** out of a 3" barrel, beating the 9mm and it's comparable to the .40 S&W. By my calculations, the recoil falls in the neighborhood of a .38 Special in a steel frame Detective Special. This means it can be fired with one hand without the gun twisting out of your grip.

I emphasize one-handed shooting with a carry gun because I think in many cases that is what is likely to happen. One hand is likely to be used warding off an attacker, busy opening a door or carrying something. Or perhaps pushing/pulling a loved one out of danger. The .357 Magnum, in such cases, may be "too much" gun.

The .327 offers fast follow-up shots due to lower recoil too. This means a higher probability of scoring multiple hits on my attacker. In urban areas, the smaller, lighter bullet will, I think, tend to overpenetrate less and in the event of a miss, not carry as severe of a richochet hazard as the .357 mag. I'd be interested in how much energy is left after striking the narrow side of a 2x4 too (simulating wall penetration).

I can't comment on noise & flash yet, not having fired one, much less in low-light conditions. But I suspect it is no where near as nasty as the .357.

With pressures running in the 40,000 psi range, I'm not sure that the J-Frame can be beefed up to handle the round. A six-shooter would put the notches in the thin part of the chamber areas and there's not room for 7. Perhaps S&W will first introduce it in a "snubby" Model 16 or bring out a K-Frame Model "316" Scandium M&P 3" for it.

That's my $0.02.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 13, 2008, 12:05 PM   #42
John Moses
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 161
Bill,

Everything you say makes sense and there is nothing to disagree with. Well thought out post, chocked full of logic.

My point is that if you load the .357 down to .327 energy levels you will have similar flash and recoil.

With the .357 you also have a much wider selection of projectiles to choose from. Admittedly that can change with time.

I guess I just don't see the point. If you have an SP101 in .357 you can load it down to the weakest .38 special range and up to the hottest .357. And if you like the recoil/flash level of the .327 you can have that too.

Cheaper ammo and better resale value too. (for the foreseeable future)
John Moses is offline  
Old July 13, 2008, 12:58 PM   #43
CraigC
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2001
Location: West Tennessee
Posts: 4,300
It offers similar performance to heavily loaded .32-20's in strong sixguns like the Colt SAA, replicas and custom Old Model Blackhawks yet fits into a six shot Single Six, can be loaded on existing carbide dies and brass should last a hell of a lot longer. It will shoot flatter than lightweight .357 loads and hit harder downrange. What's not to like???
CraigC is offline  
Old July 14, 2008, 02:56 PM   #44
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,089
JM,

My only quibble with your statement is "loading down" the .357 to .327 levels... First, you can certainly do so, but it must be done with the realization that you're not "loading down" by very much. The much vaunted 125g .357 loads run about 1450~1500 fps producing about 585 ft-lbs of energy. The .327 cranks a 100g American Eagle round up to 1400 fps to get 435 of gee-whiz at the muzzle. Federal's 115 Gold Dot will zoom out at 1330fps giving 452 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

The biggest advantage, I believe, is that you can get very good performance out of a handgun with much lower recoil than before. If I can give my wife, girlfriend, daughter, son (or heck, even myself) a gun with near .357 ballistics that recoils like a standard pressure .38 (or less), then there is a significant advantage.

Again, I'll concede that the .357 is a more versatile cartridge at this point. We have not yet seen what handloaders can do with the .327 Magnum. I'm sure it can be downloaded to .32 S&W Long power levels. How much more it can be "pushed" remains to be seen. But with operating pressures in the 40,000 psi range, pushing this cartridge will have to be done very carefully.

The chart below shows the energy outputs from .32 S&W through .327 Mag compared to .38 Special & .357 Mag loads. I haven't tried to work up the recoil numbers for the SP-101 yet. If someone feeds them to me, I can make the chart.


If you shoot .38/.357 well and can use 125g out of your carry guns, then it offers you very little.

If you're recoil sensitive to the .357 Magnum or .38 +P loads, especially in a snubby, then the .327 might offer something much better for you than a .380 or .32 ACP.

I think that's the bottom line.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 14, 2008, 03:40 PM   #45
CraigC
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2001
Location: West Tennessee
Posts: 4,300
Quote:
The .327 cranks a 100g American Eagle round up to 1400 fps to get 435 of gee-whiz at the muzzle. Federal's 115 Gold Dot will zoom out at 1330fps giving 452 ft-lbs at the muzzle.
Also bear in mind that those numbers are from 3" barrels. Check out the Gunblast article on a custom Single Six and FA 97 to see what they do out of sporting length barrels. Almost 1600fps for the 115gr factory Gold Dot load out of the custom Ruger. Quite impressive. Handloading should reveal it to be quite the little gem.

http://www.gunblast.com/Freedom-Harton327.htm
CraigC is offline  
Old July 14, 2008, 04:00 PM   #46
Smaug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 3,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillCA
If someone feeds them to me, I can make the chart.
Hey Bill, how about just attaching the Excel file so we can ALL make fancy bar graphs!
Smaug is offline  
Old July 14, 2008, 05:45 PM   #47
LanceOregon
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
Why wait for the Ruger, when Charter Arms already has two .327 Mag models available.

They have both a stainless 2.2 inch snubnose model:





As well as a 4 inch target model of the same gun with fully adjustable rear sights:


LanceOregon is offline  
Old July 14, 2008, 05:55 PM   #48
Wayward_Son
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2008
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 406
Well then you'd have to shoot a Charter Arms.

And anyway, the cartridge is designed for the Ruger's 3" barrel. It would be underpowered out of the 2.2" barrel, and the 4" wouldn't be as concealable as the 3" SP101.

I'll wait for my Ruger.
__________________
Speak softly, but carry a .357 magnum.
Wayward_Son is offline  
Old July 14, 2008, 06:48 PM   #49
funon1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: WA state
Posts: 361
It's not that the .327 will replace the .357

But it gives us one more viable choice that has a nice range of power/applications and an extra round of capacity given frames of similar size. I, personally, love the .32s as well as the .357s, .44s and 454s. There is some overlap in power and potential uses, and I see that as a good thing.

I see the .327 as a great defensive offering for those who either prefer a bit less power than the .357 but more than a .38 or prefer having an additional, smaller caliber just for fun. I don't need a .32, but I have a ton of old .32 ammo, so why not buy a gun in which to shoot it.

Thanks for the charts and all the thoutful input.

funon1
funon1 is offline  
Old July 14, 2008, 07:49 PM   #50
John Moses
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 161
Bill

Apparently I am dense and I thank you for being patient with one so addlepated.

It is my assertion that if you reload, the .357 platform, will do everything the 327 can and more.

I concede that if you do not reload, the .327 ammunition offerings may fit nicely into your shooting needs.

Are we in agreement?
Or are you saying that you cannot replicate .327 similar energy, flash, recoil with a .357?

Thanks
John Moses
John Moses is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.17525 seconds with 7 queries