Rifle primers in "pistol" cartridges

[SW620]

Just a couple of quick questions. Thanks in advance for all assistance.

1) I'm loading 158 gr. JSP bullets in my .357 magnum brass for use in both my revolver (SW620) and rifle (Navy Arms 1892 lever action). The powders that I plan on using are H110, Lil' Gun, and Universal. I happen to have on hand a large number of CCI small RIFLE primers. Is there any reason why I shouldn't use them.

2) I'm loading 240 gr. JSP bullets in my .44 magnum brass for use in my Marlin 1894SS rifle. I plan on using the same powders mentioned above. I have a large number of CCI large RIFLE primers. Is there any reason why I shouldn't use them.

Once again, thanks for any words of wisdom!

[mniesen89]

As far as a safety factor goes, I wouldn't know becuse I've never done such thing. But if I were you, I would definitely be sticking by the book as far as primers go. I've used small rifle magnums primers in place of small rifle primers with no problems, but mixmatching handgun with rifle, I wouldn't recommend!

[rwilson452]

I think you will find the rifle primers won't fit. they are of the same diameter but the rifle primer needs a deeper pocket. it will stick out. not a good thing.

Just a couple of quick questions. Thanks in advance for all assistance.

1) I'm loading 158 gr. JSP bullets in my .357 magnum brass for use in both my revolver (SW620) and rifle (Navy Arms 1892 lever action). The powders that I plan on using are H110, Lil' Gun, and Universal. I happen to have on hand a large number of CCI small RIFLE primers. Is there any reason why I shouldn't use them.

2) I'm loading 240 gr. JSP bullets in my .44 magnum brass for use in my Marlin 1894SS rifle. I plan on using the same powders mentioned above. I have a large number of CCI large RIFLE primers. Is there any reason why I shouldn't use them.

Once again, thanks for any words of wisdom!

[alsmith]

I have been using Federal small rifle primers, with a 125 HP, 38 Cal Rainier Ballistics, with 7.5 g of Unique in a Marlin 1894, 357 mag rifle for about 4000 rounds over the past 4 years for Pistol Cartridge Silhouette.

Works great, no problems.

Al

[Hawg Haggen]

You might get by with using small rifle primers in a .357 rifle. I don't know much about them as I don't reload anything with small primers. Using large rifle primers in a pistol cartridge is asking for trouble.

[hodaka]

I had quit buying small pistol primers altogether. The small rifle primers work fine in pistol cartridges. It is not true for large ones however as they are slightly different in size. I bought an H&K P7 that would not fire the rifle primers so I had to go back to stocking some of them. The rifle primers will work well for most pistols though.

[Sidetracked]

Small rifle primers typically burn a little hotter, but can be used in some small pistol cartridges. As always, back off your current load according to powder company documents, and work back up.

You may want to stretch your Google legs, and do some searching, though. Each manufacturer has different thicknesses of primer cups. Using a thick cup might give you some ignition trouble. There have been a few articles written about the differences over the years. (Chuck Hawks may have one on his site.)

As for the Large primers... rwilson pretty much covered it. Large Pistol and Large Rifle have different dimensions. No-Go.

[SW620]

Thanks for the great info everyone! Usually, after checking the google "facts" from manufacturers and such, I like to check with forum members to see what sort of first-hand knowledge is out there.

[Alleykat]

I use small rifle primers, exclusively, for reloading 9mm. Contrary to one of the posts, small rifle and pistol primers are the same size...not so for large primers.

[SL1]

Other posters have already told you most of what you need to know, but left out one thing that might get you into trouble:

Large rifle primers and large pistol primers are the same diameter, but the rifle primers are LONGER. So, you CAN seat a large rifle primer in a case designed for a large pistol primer. But, it will STICK UP ABOVE THE CASE HEAD. That can be DANGEROUS because it allows the primer to be struck and possibly fired by a blow of ANYTHING against the case head. Think about the cartridges in a revolver cylinder that are NOT lined up with the barrel when the gun is fired. They can get banged pretty hard against the shield behind the cylinder. (The initial recoil force tends to pull them the oher way, but that gets them going with the gun, which you stop with your grip, so the primers then hit the shield.) IF that were to set off one or more additional cartridges, the bullets in some chambers could hit the frame and those chamber(s) would burst from the overpressure(s) caused by the obstruction(s). Same issue with "slam-fires" when high primers are used in auto-laoding pistols.

This CAN happen even with the correct primer for the pocket if you do not clean the pocket and there is enough residue to keep the primer too high, or even if you just don't seat the primer below flush in a clean but tight pocket.

So, ALWAYS check each primer by running your finger over it after yo have seated it, making sure that it feels below flush.

SL1

[SW620]

Thanks again for the comments. I'll definitely not use the large rifle primers in the .44 magnum reloads. In my original post, I was just wondering if they had ever been used successfully, as I loaded up on large rifle primers for my 30-06and .22-250 (and small rifle primers for my .223) about 15 years ago when the word was out that primers would no longer be available to the general public, or rationed, or too expensive. Lots of folks seemed to be stocking up at the time. Anyone else remember that? Since then, I don't do as much groundhog hunting, and seem to have a surplus of both types of primers. Oh well, I know I'll find something else in which to use them. Good excuse to buy another caliber!

One final question, if anyone's still reading this thread. Although probably not necessary with Universal, are SMALL PISTOL MAGNUM primers okay? I've seen conflicting thoughts on this. Thanks.

[srsmith]

Using rifle primers in handgun loads *can* be done successfully, but BE CAREFUL !
There is published data showing this. For example the 2006 VihtaVuori Reloading Guide lists small rifle primers for the 357 Mag loads.

My experience is that moving from pistol to mag pistol to rifle primers in handguns usually results in little change of max velocity and a noticable decrease in the variation in velocity from shot to shot.
Works for me.

NOTE: If you are gonna try this, you MUST start low and work up slowly watching for pressure issues.
If you are not sure how to do this, then DO NOT DO IT !

Have fun and be safe.

-steve

[SL1]

+1 on reducing loads and working up again when switching to magnum primers or rifle primers (from either standard or magnum pistol primers).

The problem is telling what a pressure sign is in a 357 magnum. If you just look at primers, the magnum primers are designed to take higher pressures than the regulars and the rifle primers take still higher pressure than the magnum pistol primers. So, squinting at primer edges to judge flatness or looking at flow into firing pin holes is not going to give the same "look" for the different types. Remember, 357 Magnum pressures are 35,000 psi (SAAMI) or 43,000 psi (CIP in Europe), but rifle primers are designed for 60,000-to65,000 psi rifle cartridges.

"Hard extraction" is not such a good sign, either, because it depends on a lot of things (like chamber smoothness) that are NOT consistent from gun-to-gun. And, with smooth chambers, the reason that extraction gets hard is that the cylinder walls expand so much at max pressure that they spring back more than the brass case springs back and grip it tightly. That is really more pressure than you want to be putting in a cylinder!

So, I suggest that you stick to SAAMI load data and be careful if you use rifle primers. Trying for max loads with them MIGHT get you into trouble, because they tend to raise peak pressures without raising velocities. Apparently there IS some pressure-tested data for them in 357 Magnum, so that would be good to find and use.

SL1

[zxcvbob]

The small rifle primers will work great in the .357, especially with the H110 (or 296) powder.

The large rifle primers, if they are made to specifications, are the right diameter but too long to use in the .44 Magnum.

[saudst]

+1 SL1. I lost a Ruger SBH with CCI LR primers in 44 mag.

[SL1]

Tim,

That sounds exciting! Care to share any details?

SL1

[saudst]

Sure, it may help. I was only a year or less into reloading at 19 and mistakenly primed the 44 cases with CCI rifle primers and did not notice that the primers were above flush untill I was completed loading. I was smart enough not to try to seat them deeper, thought they may go off. But I was stupid enough to go ahead and shoot them any way. About 2 rounds into the first cylinder full the gun seemed to recoil more and when I looked down, 2 of the chambers to the right of the top strap were missing. I was lucky as all the explosion went over my hand and I never got touched. 25 years later and I still run my little finger over the case head as I prime and the gun hangs above my bench. Please don't do this. I have mentioned in the past not to use the rifle primers even in small pistol pockets as you take your first indicator of high presure away, flatened primers. Just my opinion, but if you are blowing pistol primers, the way to cure that is back off the charge or find another load, not a stronger primer.


Be safe, Tim.

[Alleykat]

Several handgun rounds call for either small pistol magnum primers or small rifle primers. 9mm +p brass is the same as "regular" 9mm brass. You're not going to have any problems using small rifle primers for 9mm reloading.