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Old May 18, 2008, 06:09 PM   #1
pfch1977
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Revisiting the Bernard Goetz scenario

This was a great read on Wikipedia. I learned a few lessons and here they are:

- Do not underestimate the effectiveness of a 5-shot .38.

- A 5-shot revolver can be deployed and shot fast enough to be effective (the article states it took Goetz 1-2 seconds to deploy 5 rounds. 4 of the rounds were able to reach their target.

- The result was a good result. All of targets were incapacitated, but none was killed. I would say that this was a successful self-defense shoot in that the shooter shot until the threat was neutralized. (Although if he had more bullets, he might have killed all 4.)

- Goetz had trained with his weaponry. The proper training can make most any pistol effective even a 5-shot .38 revolver.

Now with that said, my question to the group is that if you had 4 targets and a semi-auto capable of holding 10+. Would you try to place two bullets on each target or one bullet on each target? My thought is that two bullets on each target might waste time. That half-second of time might give the targets enough time to squeeze off a round on you.

How would you react in a situation with 4 robbers who are less then 20 feet from you. Lets say you had a 5 shot revolver? Lets say you had a semi-auto with 12 bullets? Lets also assume that there was clear-cut reason to shoot. Goetz did not appear to have that reasoning I must admit. The man was only asking for 5 dollars, but was not an actual threat to Goetz. Lets say the men had knives in their hands and were coming at Goetz in a threatening manner.

"After the second demand or request for money, Goetz rose from his seat, and from beneath his blue windbreaker fast-drew a .38 Special five-shot Smith & Wesson revolver and fired five shots with speed shooting. (Speed shooting is a very fast technique, primarily effective at close range, where the shooter initiates trigger pull prior to the sights being aligned on the target.) In media interviews, Goetz, who had prior firearms and target shooting experience, described how he discharged all five rounds in less than 1.6 seconds. (Some eyewitness testimony stated all shots were fired within one second.)"

"The first shot hit Canty in the center of the chest; the second shot struck Allen in the upper rear shoulder while he was turned about 90 degrees from Mr. Goetz. The angle of the bullet suggested that Mr. Allen was ducking[1]; the third shot hit the subway wall just in front of Cabey; the fourth shot hit Cabey in the left side, severing his spinal cord and rendering him paraplegic; the fifth shot went through Ramseur's arm and lodged itself in his left side. Goetz then immediately looked at the first two men to make sure they were "taken care of." Goetz then saw Cabey moving on the bench and confessed to approaching Cabey and saying, "You don't look too bad; here's another," and then attempted to shoot Cabey again in the stomach, with an empty gun. Cabey, who was briefly standing prior to the shooting, was sitting on the subway bench during all attempted shots. In his subsequent police statement, Goetz explained, "If I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again." In a 2008 interview, Goetz denied having actually made the statement "You don't look too bad, here's another" in the subway car, but said that he did try to shoot Cabey again, after which he knew he was out of bullets[2]."
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Old May 18, 2008, 06:32 PM   #2
LanceOregon
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- The result was a good result.
To me, a "good result" does not mean having to endure a criminal trial, and also having to live in poverty the rest of your life due to a $43 Million dollar civil suit.

Goetz clearly made some mistakes in judgment.

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Old May 18, 2008, 06:52 PM   #3
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His biggest mistake was living in NYC
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Old May 18, 2008, 07:15 PM   #4
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His biggest mistake was turning himself in. He went to the Concord, NH Police after riding around for hours, and turned himself in and confessed. I do not endorse illegal gun carry. But it seems to me that Geotz could have handled this differently.

In a city the size of NY, he could have avoided using the particular subway line that he was on, in case anybody could identify him by sight. After a short cooling off time, he could have told his employers and friends that he decided to move to Miami. (Those cold winters in NYC, you understand.) There are so many unsolved shootings in major cities that he could have pulled it off.

Unfortunately he panicked, fled NYC, did not have a plan, and ended up in jail in NH, from where he was whisked back to NYC.

He obviously never gave a thought to what he may have to do after a shooting...especially since he was carrying illegally.
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Old May 18, 2008, 07:49 PM   #5
Rob Pincus
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While I haven't read the wikipedia entry, I have studied the event extensively.

Before glamorizing his accomplishments with the .38, keep in mind that there is a very strong possibility that he was looking for targets and not truly caught off-guard. Had he truly been ambushed by a person (or persons) intent on doing him harm, things may have turned out differently...
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Old May 18, 2008, 08:33 PM   #6
pfch1977
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The real scenario with Goetz was the following from what I have read. Correct me if Im wrong:

- There were 4 loud and rowdy black teenagers who were fooling around on a train.
- The other passengers on the train had purposely sat far from these youths. There were about 15-20 passengers on the train. There was an obvious perception on the train that these teenagers were up to no good.
- One of the teenagers asked Goetz for 5 dollars. Goetz ignored the guy the first time. On the second request, Goetz gets up and opens fire.
- The teenagers never touched or assaulted Goetz. They were simply loud, fooling around and one had asked Goetz for 5 dollars. There was never any physical contact.
- Some of the teenagers had criminal records and one had admitted in a newspaper interview that they planned on robbing Goetz.

I don’t believe the above scenario would qualify as a good defense for deadly force and I bet that in many courts around the nation Goetz would have served serious time in jail.

Goetz could have walked away from the incident. Simply moved to the other side of the train with the 15-20 passengers who were on it. Maybe he could have pulled the train’s emergency cord to create a diversion or he could have simply given up his wallet or the 5 dollars that was requested. However, he made a decision against 4 teenagers. These teenagers were far from the innocent type though with criminal records for violent crime.

Goetz’s actions after the incident make me believe that he thought he was not acting appropriately. He escaped off the train and fled to another state. These are not the actions of a person who believed that they were 100% in the right.

I’m not certain if I can say I would do the same thing and draw a gun on the youths and fire. This is an area of grey. You have 4 rowdy teenagers that can overpower you who are requesting for your cash. If you do not pull your gun, then the result might be you getting hurt and your wallet stolen. They might even turn the weapon on you.

In any event, the youths were acting foolishly by provoking people.
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Old May 18, 2008, 09:13 PM   #7
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It is kind of surprising to know he was acquitted in the shooting, given what we have seen on T.V. and read in the papers. Apparently, the evidence that was available to the jury cast a reasonable doubt.
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Old May 18, 2008, 09:40 PM   #8
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i don't have an opinion on goetz's innocence or guilt one way or the other; i don't feel i'm informed on the incident enough. it's between him and his Maker.

regarding the original question, i believe the rule of thumb when confronted by multiple attackers is to turn and run. if they pursue you the odds are pretty slim they'll reach you at the same time. in this way you can deal with them one at a time - whichever one is the fastest runner first. and if they don't pursue you then you avoid the conundrum.
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Old May 18, 2008, 09:59 PM   #9
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Back to the original question: in a multiple assailant scenario, . . . I long ago decided to deal with each one who moves forward into the fray once I have unholstered.

I am 63, just finished a bout with open heart surgery, . . . I'm not running, and I'm not just going to roll over and play dead. As another poster likes to quip: everyone gets firsts, before anyone gets seconds.

Yes, . . . seconds and even thirds will be served if in fact a bg decides after the first round that he wants to continue his aggression. I will continue to fire until the threat is no more.

I would, however, prefer to get behind cover once the first round of shooting has ended, . . . and await LEO arrival.

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Old May 18, 2008, 10:00 PM   #10
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yes, just some honest urban youths steadfastly looking for work. The screwdrivers were because they were on a public works mission and they were going to fix some public property that had a loose screw.

Really, if he had really felt threatened there is no reason that he couldn't have avoided it by running away or offering them sex in exchange for their protection.

It happens all the time in prison, and NYC is just a big prison anyhow, right?
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Old May 18, 2008, 10:23 PM   #11
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Run? Not me! Just can't fathom out running several youth of any color! Why waste that precious 21 feet running?
Am I the only one who thinks the Goetz case may have made some deviant youth consider the possible affects of preying on honest society?
I also seem to remember (I was but a youngster than) he had been targeted by NYC's deviant youth prior to arming himself. He had reason to flee as he was illegally armed as were most of the armed New Yorkers. 'Twas a rough era to try to live honest up in that Armpit of America.
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Old May 18, 2008, 11:16 PM   #12
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I look at multiple targets as multiple single targets.

What that means is, each target gets shot at once. The targets that need a second shot are then shot a second time. After that, it's one shot per target, of those remaining targets that need to be shot again.

Chances are, and I think Goetz's shooting showed this to a degree, when you start shooting back, badguys tend to turn from the fray and try to vacate the area. Goetz's shooting of a guy turning proves this to me.

I will not comment on Goetz's legality, plans or fleeing the scene as I was not there and have no investigative knowledge of the incident. I will say, shoot each target once and repeat as needed.

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Old May 19, 2008, 10:48 AM   #13
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Sorry, if I set things off track... I wasn't addressing the appropriateness of his mindset or his actions, merely the effect his mindset might have had on his physical performance.

We know that the brain focuses the mind and body on something/one that threatens us as a natural survival response, therefore under real ambush-stress, we are forced to deal with the fact that we are confronted/startled by one person at a time and would need to go through multiple recognition phases while dealing with other threats (hence the emphasis on assessing the environment ("scanning") after a shoot to help break the focus on the original threat). When we are stalking we are much better able to plan a "multiple target" response (such as in competition or with a plate rack in front of us) as opposed to having a survival imperative to address the most obvious/first stimulus and then (hopefully) respond to other threats as they become apparent.

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Old May 19, 2008, 11:17 AM   #14
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Maybe he could have pulled the train’s emergency cord to create a diversion ...
This only exists in the movies.
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Old May 19, 2008, 12:37 PM   #15
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According to Goetz, the four men gave signals to each other, and shortly thereafter Canty and Barry Allen rose from their seats and went over to the left of Goetz, blocking Goetz off from the other passengers in the car. Canty then calmly said to Goetz, "Give me five dollars." According to the young men's testimony, Canty was panhandling, although eyewitness testimony given at Goetz's criminal trial generally agreed that the four men were aggressive and threatening.
They moved to block him from escape and according to witnesses were aggressive and threatening.............in this scenario I'm forced to draw and fire. However once they start to scatter I'm done (unless they have guns).

If you read Goetz's confession he was intent on shooting and an obvious murderous wackjob who should be in prison next to the scum he shot.

Quote:
Goetz admitted to police that he "snapped" and that his intention at that point was to "murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible." At the criminal trial, Goetz's defense attorneys, Barry Slotnick and Mark Baker, claimed that this and other extreme statements by Goetz were the product of an overactive imagination.

After the second demand or request for money, Goetz rose from his seat, and from beneath his blue windbreaker fast-drew a .38 Special five-shot Smith & Wesson revolver and fired five shots with speed shooting. (Speed shooting is a very fast technique, primarily effective at close range, where the shooter initiates trigger pull prior to the sights being aligned on the target.) In media interviews, Goetz, who had prior firearms and target shooting experience, described how he discharged all five rounds in less than 1.6 seconds. (Some eyewitness testimony stated all shots were fired within one second.)

The first shot hit Canty in the center of the chest; the second shot struck Allen in the upper rear shoulder while he was turned about 90 degrees from Mr. Goetz. The angle of the bullet suggested that Mr. Allen was ducking[1]; the third shot hit the subway wall just in front of Cabey; the fourth shot hit Cabey in the left side, severing his spinal cord and rendering him paraplegic; the fifth shot went through Ramseur's arm and lodged itself in his left side. Goetz then immediately looked at the first two men to make sure they were "taken care of." Goetz then saw Cabey moving on the bench and confessed to approaching Cabey and saying, "You don't look too bad; here's another," and then attempted to shoot Cabey again in the stomach, with an empty gun. Cabey, who was briefly standing prior to the shooting, was sitting on the subway bench during all attempted shots. In his subsequent police statement, Goetz explained, "If I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again." In a 2008 interview, Goetz denied having actually made the statement "You don't look too bad, here's another" in the subway car, but said that he did try to shoot Cabey again, after which he knew he was out of bullets[2].
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Old May 19, 2008, 12:38 PM   #16
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Two of those kids had sharpened screwdrivers in their pockets. This is a way that thugs legally carry a knife-type device in New York.
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Old May 19, 2008, 03:28 PM   #17
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Two of those kids had sharpened screwdrivers in their pockets. This is a way that thugs legally carry a knife-type device in New York.
Agreed but three of the 4 tried to flee after the first shot. A sharp screwdriver holder running away isn't much of a threat IMO. I don't have a problem with him shooting the first 2 guys. The other 2 he should have stopped. He's a scumbag because he tried to murder the first guy he shot but was out of ammo.
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Old May 19, 2008, 03:51 PM   #18
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Looks to me that he handled the situation as well as he could have, given what he had and what he planned to do. He neutralized all of his opponents in a quick and effective fashion.

Unfortunately, it seems as though what he planned to do did not match up with the realities of the situation. Asking for money is not a reason to be shot, thug or not - legally or not. He viewed his "opponents" to be direct and immediate threats to his life, and they were not. They might have become such at a later time, but at the time of the shooting, I don't believe he had justification to do such.

It appears that he gave no warning, took no precautions, and simply opened fire on a group of people (one who was seated while the confrontation took place) with no warning and no life or death justification. Some of his alleged comments after the incident further provide evidence that he was out of line.

Take what lessons you will from this incident, but I wouldn't glorify his name nor put him in the category of purely self defensive shooters.
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Old May 19, 2008, 04:14 PM   #19
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Shows how words are overvalued. In those situations the bad guys use words to distract, while they setup doing what they intend to do, rob, murder, rape, whatever. What the felons said had NOTHING to do with what they were after.

From a negative reading of the facts, it's pretty clear the badguys have confined Goetz to a small area, kidnapping when added to the fact that they attempted to rob him. I don't know if New York has a felony murder rule, but confining someone to a small area, then murdering would give you a real good shot at the death penalty in Kali. The restraint doesn't have to be long, and, it doesn't have to be 'reasonable' in the mind of the victim, just that he's restrained, and can't leave.

From the later records of the guys who lived, it's real clear these were NOT NICE PEOPLE, and, Geotz perception that he was likely to be seriously hurt or killed was totally validated by their later criminal acts.

I guess I might be slightly prejudiced, since I had three guys assault and batter me in a similar way, in a bathroom, except they hit me over the head with a Walther PPKS.

I've also watched a couple gang bangers try similar tactics
when trying to rob a gun store. THAT was really funny. The guy was whining about the store owners, who had both just uncovered their Glocks, loaded, in holsters, and the guy was whining that it was illegal in Kali to do that. He had also tried to distract them but, they knew the guy wasn't going to buy anything, and figured it out early on.
Weird part was the giant rott wasn't even bothered, but, the guy hadn't done anything but talk...

All I had was pepper spray, and never more vivid was the phrase,
"Don't bring a knife to a gun fight!"

What does come out of this is in any situation, if you have to shoot someone, talk to NO ONE but your lawyer.
It appears the media, and the District Attorney's put out enough misinformation on their own to convict him, and, the DA's should have been disbarred.
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Old May 19, 2008, 04:37 PM   #20
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To me, a "good result" does not mean having to endure a criminal trial, and also having to live in poverty the rest of your life due to a $43 Million dollar civil suit.
Well said! Goetz would have been far better off if he would have just given the thugs the $5. Another example of how failing to understand the typical dynamics of a situation can lead to far greater loss of resources.

Quote:
His biggest mistake was turning himself in.
Maybe, maybe not. If he hadn't turned himself in he would have lost the mantle of "honest citizen" that helped him so much during the trial (Flight = guilt).

As for the original question, my suggestion is to shoot 1 BG at a time until he is no longer a problem, then go looking for the next target. Why give up being locked in on a threat that may still be a threat?
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Old May 19, 2008, 04:49 PM   #21
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A 6 shot .327mag would have given him more lethal energy than the 5 shot .38. and a little more insurance in terms of not needing a reload.


Just a thought.
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Old May 19, 2008, 05:18 PM   #22
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Well said! Goetz would have been far better off if he would have just given the thugs the $5. Another example of how failing to understand the typical dynamics of a situation can lead to far greater loss of resources.
One more time: words by a bad guy, in the act of committing a crime are worthless. The 5 dollar request is to distract, or, to get your wallet out. Do you REALLY think these scumbags,

wait, it just dawned on me, you don't know what wonderful folks these guys were. Here, from the same Wikpedia article:

Quote:
At the time of the incident the four young men had a total of fourteen criminal bench warrants, although only Cabey had been charged with a felony, armed robbery. All of the men were either 18 or 19, and had reached the legal age of majorit
Goetz had on two prior occassions brandished, and not shot. I believe his perception of the group attacking him was correct:
Quote:
once in the mid 1970s while with friends returning to a Harlem subway station, Goetz was mugged yet again in 1981 by three men and sustained injuries from the assault. Though he had prior target shooting experience earlier in his life, it was this second violent mugging that prompted Goetz to begin carrying a gun. Goetz did apply for a permit to carry a handgun, which was denied as are most such applications in New York City. Goetz bought the gun — a five-shot, alloy J-frame Smith and Wesson "Airweight" revolver with a shrouded hammer — out of fear for his safety. Goetz had brandished the pistol on two occasions prior to the attack on the subway in order to frighten away would-be robbers. It was this firearm that Goetz used to shoot the four men who confronted him on the subway in 1984.
Quote:
Those in the second camp tended to believe the version of the incident as told by the four men, that they were merely panhandling with neither intimidation nor threats of violence. This latter view of events was later substantially discredited when one of the four men admitted that they planned to rob Goetz.
Quote:
This second indictment was later dismissed after two of the shooting victims were arrested on separate rape and robbery charges, and a third shooting victim stated in a newspaper interview that the other members of the group decided to rob Goetz because he looked like "easy bait." Independent eyewitness statements were still withheld from the media.
Pretty sure that the bad guys didn't have finger prints in the system. As soon as they acosted Goetz, prints go into the system, and, they start matching up for unsolved robberies and rapes...

Last edited by Socrates; May 19, 2008 at 05:55 PM.
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Old May 19, 2008, 06:32 PM   #23
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In the idealistic world of true 2A rights Goetz would not need to worry about being charged with illegally carrying a firearm.

I do, however, have a problem with Goetz's mindset. His statements of intent "If I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again." seem to indicate a desire for revenge or vengance and one seemingly out of proportion to the incident.

In short, I think the Goetz case is a poor example of self-defense in a legal sense.

With regards to the thugs, "Give me five dollars" is not a request or a plea, but a demand. There's little doubt that a negative answer might very well have resulted in a beating, stabbing or other serious injury. Words are not necessarily worthless, as a previous poster indicated. Had the thug's words been "Could you spare five dollars for me?" the words themselves might have indicated simple panhandling. It could have muddied the waters a bit more for Goetz to establish intent.

As far as the OP's question, it's very likely that in a similar situation, armed with a 5-shooter, the first or closest antagonist will get one round and we then proceed round-robin style until all subjects have been hit. The remaining shot is awarded to the first subject displaying a need for a follow-up shot. Also note that the subjects wounded in the side or back should not be viewed as "fleeing" or showing "proof" that they were disengaging from the conflict. Turning to take cover in such a limited area would result in similar injuries. And it's doubtful that a turn would have been perceived by Goetz as a "retreat" in such CQB in time to hold his fire.
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Old May 19, 2008, 07:26 PM   #24
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Goetz had been mugged twice before. It is possible this was the same group that got him one of the first times...
They were NOT nice people.

I also don't trust the press reporting, at all.

Wonder if the appellate case has a statement of fact?
Go here:
http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/cover.htm
then search for trial name, and you'll get the appellate case, and statement of facts.
Can't get the link to work to the actual case.
People v. Goetz, 68 N.Y.2d 96 (Jul 08, 1986)

After reading the statement of fact from the case two things become clear:

Goezt should NEVER have talked to the police without council present. From his statement, at least looking back at it now, maybe he was insane, or at least that's what you must think to have told the police such stuff.

It certainly gives a clear point for directional pepper spray prior to using a gun...

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/nygoetz.htm

Last edited by Socrates; May 19, 2008 at 10:10 PM.
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Old May 19, 2008, 11:58 PM   #25
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I think that many of us are aware that Goetz was twice brutally mugged. After all, he did not even get the handgun after the first mugging. He only obtained it after he was mugged yet a second time.

And I think that everyone agrees that these men that tangled with him were no good trash. Heck, charges were even dismissed at one point against Goetz, because some of these men committed further crimes after this incident.

Goetz's biggest mistake was making so many racially charged statements to people after his first two muggings. Referring to black people as "******s", and saying how much you hate them, is not going to look good at all if you later then shoot a black person. Your words then come back to haunt you.

Perhaps Goetz was not like that before his muggings, as all the statements cited in the civil case took place after he was beaten and robbed those two times.

Goetz clearly was a victim. But some of his actions really made life difficult for him.

.

Last edited by LanceOregon; May 19, 2008 at 11:59 PM. Reason: typo
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