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Old July 8, 2008, 08:38 AM   #26
Art Eatman
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A few observations: I've yet to meet the person who can eyeball the difference between 450 and 500 yards. Or 500 and 550.

I don't care what shoulder-held rifle you use, that 50-yard difference in being correct on the distance will cause a miss or a crippling hit on a deer or elk. For an '06. that 50-yard difference between 450 and 500 is a foot in trajectory. For the difference between 500 and 550, yuck.

If you're using a rangefinder, what difference does it make if you're using a .308 or a 7mm STW or equivalent? Or even a .3000 Eargesplittenloudenboomer? You KNOW the trajectory numbers, do you not? So you know the holdover or the mil-dots or the clicks and all that happy stuff. Me, I'd vote for light recoil in a lightweight rifle and carry that lightweight laser rangefinder.

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Old July 8, 2008, 11:26 AM   #27
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I have to agree with Art on all points.

This is why I am tending to favor the 30-06 +/- class cartidges over the super magnums. Still, more speed is less drop and better BC in the bullet means less adjustment to make. That is why I am thinking the rifle that has the most recoil that you could comfortably handle would be the best choice. Which is very subjective though. Maybe some of you can sit all day and blow off 340 Weatherby rounds. I'm not one of them though.

There are lots of rounds that I think would get the job done. I think I'd stick with between a 7mm and .338 as far as caliber goes. Even if you leave out the magnums, this still leaves .280 Rem, .284 Win, 7mm-08, 7x64, .308, 30-06, 338 Fedral and a whole slew of wildcats to choose from.

In the end its probably not really all that important which one you pick even, but it is still fun to discuss.
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Old July 9, 2008, 12:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
In the end its probably not really all that important which one you pick even, but it is still fun to discuss.
I am going to bang the " morals " drum one more time and then shut up . Yes it is fun to discuss some of the estoric points of calibers and terminal performance at a given range as long as one realizes that it is a rare rifleman who can make use of any supposed advantage one caliber may offer over another when you get out past 400 yards or so . The issue is that many feel they have an inborn ability to do such things as drive , handle recoil , guage range in an unfamiliar environment . Just how tall is an average fence post , or soapweed in a given pasture ( which are objects on the plains that may likely available to give " scale " to an animal ) As an instance i have seen folks brag about a 400 yard shot on a prarie dog that when a rangefinder is put to the shot it will read 250 and change . Now i am talking about good shots with experience enough to " know the rifle " but due to the lack of " scale " they will wildly mis estimate the range normally leading to misses or poor hits . On prarie dogs and to a lessor extent song dogs this is not a huge issue as a hit with a centerfire will usually be enough to anchor the animal and a miss is a miss . I see guys get the newest " thumpenboomer " for plains shooting and then due to recoil/ammo-cost/noise/time/lack of a place to shoot at range, ect.. not practice . They still however feel that they can " rifle " their way into long range field accuracy . Thus far we have not even spoken to doping the wind angle, speed , gusts ect, and its effect on both the trajectory and the stability of the shooter under field conditions .
Now that i have said my piece which can be summed up as something like " your better off passing on the shot and hoping for better later " . I will say that were i going to buy a rifle to " shoot across the canyon " with it would be either a 7mm mag or a 300 win mag . I have owned both in the past , and sold both as i found myself doing exactly what i despise , not practicing with the rifle enough . Nowadays i shoot either a .308 or an 06 for large game and just pass on the shots i suspect are marginal with my abilitys . This way i shoot year round ( i plink quite a bit with my truck gun which is normally a .308 ) and stay more current/confident come season . Just this am while hauling water to the cattle i happened to bag two coyotes using a coral post as a rest. The first at i believe a bit less than 200 yards and the second at a bit over 300 when he stopped to look back . I did not bother to pace off or measure the shots so the range is a somewhat realistic guesstimate . I wasnt then nor am i now concerned about the exact range , they did however fit into my abilitys and due to experience with the size of coyotes and cattle they were mingling with as well as my rifle i had the ability to " scale " the range and do a quick holdover from my zero for a successful set of shots . If i did not practice consistently there is a good chance i would have over estimated the range and shot over the back of the songdogs . Now i by no means am an exceptional rifleman, I just recognize my limits as well as the fact that caliber is not the answer to extending them . Quite possibly some lifestyle changes such as quitting smoking coupled with more aerobic exercise to get my breathing under better control would go a long ways tho . Once you pass 400 yards shooting becomes much more technical since even slight mistakes are magnified by range and will continue to be until we have something such as a functional lazer that literally will hit where the crosshairs rest at a given range . There are some amazing rifles and shooters out there that under ideal or near ideal conditions make some amazing shots. However even a sniper normally has a luxury that a hunter does not , he can prepare a " hide " to get as close to perfect as possible before he shoots ( not always but as a rule this holds pretty true ). The hunter however is presented with an " opportunity " shot more often than not , and if any rest is available it is likely to be improvised . By all means stretch your ability as a shooter to the limits you can archive, but at the same time realise that a new rifle , or new scope is not likely to be the answer to achieve hits in the real world tho they may work to a degree on the range.
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Old July 9, 2008, 01:03 PM   #29
ginshun
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Ya, well, as soon as I get my .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer I'll be able to shoot deer at 4,000 yards. Don't worry, I'll be sure to use an appropriate bullet like a partition or a triple shock.
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Old July 9, 2008, 01:39 PM   #30
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Ya, well, as soon as I get my .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer I'll be able to shoot deer at 4,000 yards. Don't worry, I'll be sure to use an appropriate bullet like a partition or a triple shock.
Just dont forget that nowadays it is required that it have a foreward rail to which you can attach your stopwatch so you can check time between the loud noise and the bullet strike LOL . Really i understand what you are saying , i just am contrary by nature , and sick of chasing down gut shot game , or putting back up electric fences from city slickers who attempt to chase down their own gut shot game in a pickup . When quizzed ( the folks who get caught at it ) all seem to have some belted mag rifle and assure me that it was a " 700 yard shot " . Sorry if i rained on your thread and i did attempt apology in actually stating what i would use were i going to get such a rifle . Both calibers have worked well for me in the past , but i just could not afford the expense or the recoil/noise of them to stay current and consistent , and as noted i see this as a real trend . The best hunter i ever knew died a few years back and he never bothered to update to the " new fangled " bolt actions , he shot a 94 winchester in 30-30( which to me is just not a gun to plains hunt but then i cant stalk game like him ) . He took game every year , and some of it was state approved , as he had the attitude that he pastured it all year so he could collect it when he chose . He died owning that 94, a pump .22 ( also a winchester ) , a single shot 12 ga , and a 38-40 SAA Colt that was his daddys . He could use them all well and i am both a better man and a better hunter for having known the old cowboy .
Be well , and shoot what you will at any range you are confident at . I still disagree with your desire for a caliber rather than a pallet or two of ammo to play with no matter the caliber you currently have ( assuming you have anything in .30 that the US army ever used lol ) . If your dead set on shooting way out there under hunting conditions well go get a 300 or 7mm mag that is just a bit too heavy and long to be comfortable . Bench it to sight in and establish groups tune trigger,ect... then find a pasture where you can safely shoot at the ranges you are looking at , no cheating with reduced targets , and shoot that pallet load or two of ammo, replacing barrels as needed . Set out milk jugs ( they will give you a known size which you can use to " scale " your range when compared to vegetation , fence lines ect.. At the range that you cease to reliably hit a milk jug ( preferably on its side and first shot cold barrel ) you have no business shooting at game of any kind .
ginshun Note that a lot ( not all but a lot ) of what i posted on this thread was aimed at folks who may read it , not necessarily you personally . After reading the thread i strongly feel that you are a responsible person who will not take shots that you dont have a real world reason to be confident in . I did and do play the devils advocate tho on long range in the sense that shooting is a learned skill that is perishable . No amount of male hormones or amount of money spent on the latest technology will replace the money spent on ammo and time spent on practice and by that i dont mean just shooting off the bench at the local range . Make the time to find a place to go shoot field conditions at the real range you want to shoot at . It will be humbling for all at first , a few will master the challenge ( hey i know some " real " riflemen who can shoot that well ) .
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Old July 9, 2008, 02:40 PM   #31
ginshun
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Now worries.

I hear what you are saying, and agree with it. People that shoot their 300 mag once a year, a week before deer season and then wander through the woods blasting at anything that moves **** me off too.

Honeslty of the I don't even own a magnum rifle (.257 weatherb doesn't count as a true magnum to me) and I have only ever shot (or shot at for that matter) one deer at the ranges that I am talking about. That was a doe at 475 paces (dont' know the actual yardage, but it was very near the 1/4 mile marker in the field). I probably should not have taken the shot, but it was a calm day right nearing dusk on the last weekend of a season in which I had yet to shoot at anything, and the old man bet me I couldn't hit it. So sue me.

In general I get out and shoot, usually working on my reloads about once a week, be it at a the range or in the back field. I don't pretend to be an expert long range marksman, but am probably better than most. I have been considering a custom hunting rig or maybe a Cooper rifle for a while now. Thus this thread was born.

I still don't know if I'll go with a magnum or not, I am thinking not. If so it will be one of the 7mm short mags. I don't own any wildcat rifles either, and the 30-06AI has always intreaged me, and god knows I have enough 30-06 brass laying around as it is, so that is probably leading the running right now.

I gotta get back to work.

Later.
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Old July 11, 2008, 06:15 PM   #32
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300mag and 7mm Mag

I have both of these and they both will do just fine. They are not rounds I will shoot at the range to plick with due to both cost and recoil. I really believe they are both pretty perfect rounds for what you are looking for though. But if you are really looking for a rifle to plick with buy it and then buy one or both of these to hunt with...

I have .223 and 22-250 cal to plink with and the 22-250 will reach out pretty far.
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Old July 20, 2008, 10:12 AM   #33
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To scortch.....The 378 WBY isnt that bad on recoil. I find it more comfortable than the 458. and about the same as the 416 rigby
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Old July 21, 2008, 12:35 AM   #34
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7mm Wby mag. = 1700lbs.energy & only 24 inches bullet drop at 500yds


Of course there's also the old .300 H&H


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Old July 26, 2008, 01:39 AM   #35
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Well placed shot

its not all about the caliber its about the placement of the shot. Any Caliber 30-06 to the the .375 range with a well constructed bullet and a well placed lung shot will do the trick. Yes you do need the energy at these ranges but you can use the biggest calibers and not achieve a kill with a badly placed shot. I own a .300 win mag which is a fine rifle and would do the job no problem. 500 yards is a long shot and care should be taken when doing so. Good luck and happy hunting.
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Old July 26, 2008, 08:01 AM   #36
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rifle of choice

Taking a part of what you said about tolerating a 30-06 recoil I would vote for a 35Whelen,338 Federal,358 Winchester,or either of the 30 cal. win.mags.Any of these would do the trick on deer,elk or some of the bigger stuff.But my sentimental favorite would be a 45-70.Yes it would take alot of practice to get good with one at those ranges,but put one of those where it counts,and dinner is on the table,plenty of meat in the fridge,a trophy on the wall and plenty of braggin' for years to come!
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Old August 4, 2008, 01:22 PM   #37
Major Dave (retired)
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According to "Field and Stream"

July, 2007 edition, page60, "The Last Cartridge Guide You'll Ever Need", in the category, "Big Game At Long Range".

"This is a specialized category, comprising rounds that throw bullets at high speeds and can put down large animals like elk far off in the distance."

FIRST CHOICE: 300 Weatherby Mag - "the various huge .30's made by Rem, Lazzeroni, etc. will do everything this one will do"....."Recoil and muzzle blast are for experienced shooters only. Take that to heart."

SECOND CHOICE: .270 WSM - the (first choice category) is for truly big game. "If you want to take an animal that isn't mega-size - deer, antelope, caribou, even elk - at long range, here is the ticket. Like the standard .270, it's loaded with bullets of 130 to 150 grains, but it gives them 150 to 200 fps more at the muzzle, which makes hitting at long range easier than it would otherwise be. Recoil is noticeable but not nearly in a league with the"... first choice category.

"OVERRATED ROUNDS: 7mm Rem Mag. With all respect to its vast popularity, if you chronograph a 7mm Rem Mag, you will find that there's almost no distinction between it and a (standard) .270 and a .280......"
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Old August 7, 2008, 01:01 PM   #38
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Overated? The 7mm rem mag is over 300 fps faster than a .270 with a 150 grain bullet. Real advantages come into play with loading the 7mm rem mag. Velocities over 3200 fps are easily achieved.

Also to the original poster, if you are considering a custom build rifle and you dont plan on much stalking then go with a larger cal. and have the rifle built on the heavy side to reduce felt recoil. Maby go with a .338 win mag and a 10+ lb rifle for example.
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Old August 7, 2008, 01:07 PM   #39
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7mm stw
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Old August 7, 2008, 01:36 PM   #40
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In no particular order, long range, with punch and less recoil...

.270 WSM
.270 Weatherby Mag.
.264 Win Mag.

All can do elk, all are very flat shooters and will go the distance, and all are less recoil than the larger .30 cal or bigger.

You could probably get away with a regular .270 Win but the mags give that much more power for the longer shots and don't add too much recoil. JMHO, YMMV.
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Old August 7, 2008, 06:46 PM   #41
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I've hunted elk with a .270 Win for many years most of my elk have been under 30 yards, a few as far as 400 yards. I wouldn't recommend the 270, 308 or 30-06 for 500 yards shots, particularly if the hunter hasn't done this in the past. I think the 7mm Mags using 160g or heavier bullets and the 300 Mags shooting 180g or heavier bullets are a better choice. The shooter better know how to calculate elevation vs line of sight distance and there better not be much wind! The 7mm Mag in a reasonable weight rifle doesn't kick much at all in my opinion.

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Old August 8, 2008, 10:04 PM   #42
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all of the recommendations you have been given are good, 308,270.30-06. I think the ultimate long range whitetail cartridge is the forgotten .264 win mag. 6.5 with great sectional density hauling butt. Just don't take it on a p-dog shoot, .264 is a known barrel burner.
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Old August 8, 2008, 11:41 PM   #43
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Anybody else notice how often Weatherby pops up in this topic?

My personal choice would be the .300 Weatherby. I hate it for the recoil and love it for the results. It will take an Elk @ 600 yds. or a Cape Buff @ less range.
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Old August 9, 2008, 05:03 AM   #44
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scope is everything

no hunting this year going back to school so i can read & spell smart ass it is your understanding that missing here

Last edited by kw5891; August 9, 2008 at 11:28 PM. Reason: staff cant read maybe a library would help
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Old August 9, 2008, 10:16 AM   #45
Art Eatman
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kw5891, slow down, pay more attention to how you write, and edit for correctness. As with any of us who post here, it is not the responsibility of the reader to understand. It is the responsibility of the writer to make himself understood.

From your post, it sounds as though you need both more practice time in shooting targets at 100 yards or more. For many of us, that distance is looked upon as an easy "gimme" shot. Tight groups are quite common, but it takes practice.

It also sounds as if you need more time in the outdoors, in more open country. I've hunted in jungly parts of Florida, around Blountstown. I've hunted in wide-open country where shots inside 200 yards would be quite uncommon. I've found that I had to get my mind used to the circumstances of the terrain wherein I was hunting.

I agree with you about sighting in for 2" high at 100 yards. I've been doing it that way with most hunting rifles for over half a century. I have a 500-yard range here at my house, with three 22" hanging plates. I have found that with a 10X scope and a halfway-decent shooting table, I readily hold groups of one MOA or very close to it.

Best luck,

Art
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Old August 10, 2008, 11:16 PM   #46
George Hill
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7mm Rem Mag.
If I need more, then I go with a .30-378 Weatherby Magnum.
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Old August 12, 2008, 03:27 PM   #47
Major Dave (retired)
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300 Wby for cape buff!!!!!?????

Swampghost - No PH in Africa would let you shoot Cape Buff with anything smaller than .375 - it's the LAW!!!
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Old August 14, 2008, 07:57 PM   #48
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30 caliber has the best bullet selection. 300 mag (many to choose from) all viable options. Shooting til proficent the real key to long range accuracy.

Safe shooting
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Old August 14, 2008, 10:03 PM   #49
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HI Folks.

One thing I have noticed about big bores is once the bullet is set in motion, it's hard to slow it down. I remember Justin Linebaugh using a .475 Linebaugh pistol, at something like 175 yards, and, the bullet retains a huge amount of energy, really not slowing down much at all, like less then 10%.

So, that said, if you launch a 500 grain bullet, at 2400 fps, what sort of drop do you have at 500 yards? How about a 400 grain bullet, at 2600 fps? These are out of a .475 Lott, by the way. Only real problem is finding a scope that can stand 100 ft lbs of recoil...
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Old August 15, 2008, 10:50 AM   #50
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Q: "...if you launch a 500 grain bullet, at 2400 fps, what sort of drop do you have at 500 yards?"

A: If zeroed at 200 yards, a 250-grain .338 bullet at 2,500 ft/sec (slowest data given) will drop 53". So, for a 500-grain bullet at 2,400 ft/sec, the correct answer would be "Bunches".

Think "NBA" from mid-court.
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