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Old July 6, 2008, 01:51 AM   #1
gvf
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New (to me) Shooting Technique - Comments?

At range tonight, being the only one there, the range officer who is also SD instructor (very good) gave me a free hour's instruction. We were doing Point-Shooting, and related stuff. On the way out, he gave me verbal instructions in another technique, which I'd never come across. Maybe you know it. Any comments would be nice:

When a threat is attacking, the period between you reaching your gun, unholstering, raising it to aim-point, aiming and firing can be a few seconds, during which the attack can continue, the perp closer, the knife now all set to go etc. , and you may well be so rattled by this as to shoot rushed and inaccurate.

The technique the instructor explained was firing very quick shots in the arc of the gun being brought up, AS IT IS BEING RAISED, say at 30 degrees, 60 degrees and 90 (the usual shot point); the first would be quite low, might even ricochet off the sidewalk but perhaps into his body, second also low but a possible leg/low-groin hit, the last though very quickly following might well get a hit somewhere in center. The hope is the phyisical -or if even none hit - just psychological reaction to such an overwhelmingly quick opening- fusillade will cause a pause of shock in the attacker. In the pause you now have a breath to more carefully get control of the situation and aim for other shots, at about the same time your normally would be firing your first shot anyway. Perhaps the threat falls wounded or runs in the slight pause. (Not the point of the technique to monitor this, but who knows.)

In other words, you're shooting "before your first shot", so to speak.

If it doesn't work, you're no worse off than you would have been save for the 3 less shots, but in a semi-A., at least, you have quite a few left for one person. (A revolver might be more problematic this way.)

The only real down-side i see is not being able to practice but by dry-fire, due to potential ricochet of first shot off floor into the range ceiling, or outside off a rock skywards (or worse). So, seems like it should be used live only in life & death scenario.

Seemed interesting though.

Reactions?

Last edited by gvf; July 6, 2008 at 01:59 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old July 6, 2008, 03:47 AM   #2
dogmush
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I've heard of this in the past, and seen it practiced on an outdoor range. I don't like it for a couple of resons.

1. You're counting on a reaction from a bad guy that you might not get.

2. (the biggie for me) You are intentionally letting off shots that you don't think will hit him. The potential for collateral damage here is (to me) unaccaptable. It goes against the whole "Be sure of your target" rule, and is effectivly laying down suppressive fire. Short of full scale war, there is not a good reason to use suppressive fire.
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Old July 6, 2008, 07:15 AM   #3
xrocket
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In a true life threating attack on your person it can be a valid life saver.

Trained professionals fail to put the majority of shots on target most of the time. There are too many variables to account for in a gun fight to say any one technique is right or wrong. Any advantage you can initiate is to your good. Training, mind set and determination to live will be your best friend.

Others have employed the string technique and I have practiced it myself with a modification. Using a silhouette target I commence firing from the low ready position at the groin and work up to the head with rapid fire. I don't wait till I'm sighted on COM ... That could be too late. Of course, shooting at someones feet could get them to dancing in the other direction.

Real world ... with a large capacity pistol stringing your shots might just save your life.

Not to be adversarial, but it is suppressive fire. That's right ... Your goal is to suppress the attacker before he suppresses you!
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Old July 6, 2008, 09:22 AM   #4
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You just can't fix stupid!

STOOPID!!! Your instructor is an idiot, and I don't mind saying so. I believe I'd take the rest of my training elsewhere. That sounds like a Grade B movie trick. There are more holes in that method than in Swiss cheese.

1. You're wasting rounds you might need.
2. Your firing without aiming, indiscriminately, and there's no telling where the round will go, especially if you fire into a hard surface like concrete.
3. There's a good chance you'll shoot your own foot off.
4. You're expecting a reaction from the attacker you might not get.

Never forget the first two rules of shooting.

1. Never point your gun at anything you're not justified in shooting.
2. Never put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
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Old July 6, 2008, 09:23 AM   #5
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I really like this, thank you.
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Old July 6, 2008, 09:29 AM   #6
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I have seen this and I do not like it. I think pulling the trigger without knowing where the bullet is going is a very poor habit to get into indeed.

Plus, the recoil from that first wasted shot is actually more likely to make it take longer to get off a second good shot than it would have taken to get off a proper first shot. In a situation where a knife is coming at you, that could get you killed.

This is, IMHO, some Rambo crap by someone who has spent way to much time over thinking a bad situation to the point where they are showing no common sense.
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Old July 6, 2008, 09:38 AM   #7
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I Don't Like This Tone At All

Quote:
STOOPID!!! Your instructor is an idiot, and I don't mind saying so. I believe I'd take the rest of my training elsewhere. That sounds like a Grade B movie trick. There are more holes in that method than in Swiss cheese.
I do mind your arrogance in denigrating someone I know well and who you've never met + the implication of my idiocy for even asking for comments.

The technique may not be a good one, but that's what the question was about - the technique. But someone who tells me of a technique and my posting for further information about it should not to be denigrated like this - especially when it is people you don't know or ever have set eyes on.
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Old July 6, 2008, 09:56 AM   #8
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I think that the instructor's 'logical' plan is poorly concieved. In reality the time lag between hip shooting and a flash aimed shot is extremely small. Many years ago I had to learn that the secret to breaking pigeons in skeet was to slow down. Amazingly that 90mph pigeon moves very little distance between a wild 'pull the trigger as fast as you can, miss" and a smooth mount, swingthrough and trigger the first shot, hit. On the other hand-recovery time from the first wasted shot to a second "attempt to aim" shot is considerable longer than the micro delay to set up the shot the first time.
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Old July 6, 2008, 10:26 AM   #9
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My first reaction is to agree with most of the "that's not a good idea" reactions, for basic handgun safety rules, if nothing else.

However, it brings up a very good point for me: I practice as much as I can at a range, but I haven't had any SD instruction, other than in the CWP class. And like many have said many times, I doubt a BG is gonna stand there and wait for me to aim. I think it's time for me to call up my CWP instructor again!
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Old July 6, 2008, 10:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
I doubt a BG is gonna stand there and wait for me to aim.
You would be much better served by practicing fixed position, from the hip shooting than an on-the-fly type of shot as this. I myself practice close range, from the hip shooting quite often. It can be very practical at very close range.
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Old July 6, 2008, 10:44 AM   #11
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Thanks PBP!

I plan to carry my KT P-32 (I know, small caliber, but it's one I'm very comfortable with), when I FINALLY get my CCP. At the range, I practice point-and-shoot by picking my pistol up from the lane shelf and firing at the sillhouette target without sighting. That also helps with the comfort factor, knowing where my bullet is gonna hit when I point my gun. Hadn't thought of fixed, from the hip practice. Thanks!
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Old July 6, 2008, 10:47 AM   #12
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You're welcome. A lot of people will disagree with me but I think fixed position, from the hip practice gives you a good feel for your gun and really improves muscle memory.
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Old July 6, 2008, 10:53 AM   #13
gvf
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Quote:
You would be much better served by practicing fixed position, from the hip shooting
Yes, we were working with this during the actual training session. The other he mentioned as we were leaving, offering it as an added tool for an incident where you were so pressed by someone rushing at you so fast that it might save your life by allowing one moment respite to set yourself. He was not suggesting this be S.O.P. for all encounters. It was a "card to have in the deck".
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Old July 6, 2008, 11:47 AM   #14
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I think that's a bad idea, period.

I will try it with a shot timer to see how long it takes to go from holster with the two extra shots to finally getting a chest shot. Those first two shots really don't count for much unless you break the BG's feet/legs/ankles/kneecap...even then his hands and fingers still work fine.

I'm not the most well-trained but I can draw and get a nice chest shot in 1.5-1.75 seconds. I can get a random chest/body shot a little faster. Both times are at seven yards.

I don't see that technique getting me to a quality defensive shot any faster and save me a quarter to half a second on my time to first shot while I'm giving up a solid foundation of TWO handed shooting and accuracy...not to mention you're shooting at least 2 rounds that will not do you much good unless you expect the pucker factor of the BG to save your life or luck intervenes.

For up close work (0-3 yards) firing from retention or from the hip, depending on your drawstroke, is a way better option. I was taught to come straight up out of the holster until the thumb is at my pec. During the transition from holster to pec the barrel is brought up to be parallel to the ground. When my thumb hits my pec I know where it is pointed and my support hand is inches away.

I can effectively shoot once or twice and get center of chest shots, worst case I'll hit low and hit the stomach/hip area. I can repeat this drill with my eyes closed using a random shot timer. That is not to brag and say it's easy, it's all about muscle memory and an indexing point on your body that you know will place shots where you are pointed. I don't know how any of that will be affected by adrenaline and the pucker factor...that's why we do training drills and hope it'll be second nature when that skill is called for.

If I go out to five yards I'm not as accurate but still hit the target and get at least one shot in the vital zone out of three, at seven yards I tend to miss the vital zone and the target more but I don't do that drill at that distance much...I think it's a bit far for point shooting.

The only difference between this and hip shooting is that I'm shooting from the chest at a straight angle vs. PBP's suggestion of hip shooting where you're having to point up a bit.

The point of getting the first solid shot as fast as you can was drilled into me. The importance of being ready to fire another shot immediately was also drilled into me. I have found another method of shooting for close quarters that works better for me yet, not saying this method or another might not be better for you...just sharing my limited experience.

Also another strategy for an attacker who is up close or charging is to side step while drawing. It sounds simple and silly but it costs you zero time and forces the BG to change his angle of attack and find you. The step should begin when you get a grip on your weapon and by the time your feet plant the weapon should be up and at least READY to shoot if not already firing.
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Old July 6, 2008, 12:02 PM   #15
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I took my SD training from an old-timer in the 1960s. He taught me a hip shooting method he called the "zipper". As the sidearm is deployed, when the barrel is aligned with the pelvis, start shooting and keep it up till you see the BG's head. I've practiced this over the years and am comfortable with it. So for me, COM starts at the crotch.
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Old July 6, 2008, 12:53 PM   #16
Frank Ettin
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What a stunningly bad idea. Intentioally sending rounds indiscriminately down range is just plain reckless. It's a waste of ammunition, and it's intentionally putting non-combatants at risk. An honest miss can be bad enough, but to willfully and with advance planning simply spew bullets in the general direction of the threat strikes me as egregious.
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Old July 6, 2008, 01:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
the period between you reaching your gun, unholstering, raising it to aim-point, aiming and firing can be a few seconds, during which the attack can continue,
One of the problems with this instructor's approach is this presumption. While you can fumble the draw as far as getting the gun out of a thumbreak, etc., the actual time after getting free of the holster until coming to a general point of aim is on the order of less than a second. Ignoring the unsafe nature of blasting away as you come to bear, it would slow you down in getting a shot on target. Borrow a PACT timer and try it.

This is not to disparage point shooting in any way, as I am a firm believer in point shooting at close range, and specifically the speed rock/hip shot at extremely close distance, but nothing is gained if these techniques are performed incorrectly, and blasting the ground a couple times on the way to the target is definitely incorrect. Under stress, it would not surprise me in the least if a shooter blew a hole in his leg doing it that way.
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Old July 6, 2008, 02:19 PM   #18
gvf
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To Clarify and Sum Up...

Quote:
blasting the ground
The suggestion was not to blast the ground but to shoot starting low, (and in the event it was way too low that a ricochet might have an effect anyway). It also wasn't suggested to shoot indiscriminately, but to shoot twice - point shooting - on the way up, in an arc, at the perp - and a quick follow-up at center - at the perp. It's rapid point-shooting along a "string" - as the term was used here - moving up the target to gain a pause in the attack hopefully, so as to recover control of aim when one is about to be literally "over-run".

That's not to say this makes it a good technique, but that it is the technique described to me. If something other than that came through in my description -- my error in composition.


From all the posts, doesn't seem like it's liked at all - and I can see some good reasons for that. So, maybe my question was answered. Thanks.
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Old July 6, 2008, 03:06 PM   #19
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I wonder if the point of this technique is not to shoot low (low point of aim - or nonaim), but to shoot with the gun low (by your hip) but still pointing at your target where you will be aiming once your arm is extended. You shouldn't have to actually have your shots going into the ground or the perp's feet or legs.

I think this is probably what your instructor was saying to try:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG7UdhTJ9RM

Watch what this guy does at about the one minute mark.
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Old July 6, 2008, 04:11 PM   #20
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When you are under attack and late in reacting (Sweat N Bullets term for this is being behind in the reactionary curve) and the distance is close to contact, with no chance of moving to elude/buy time............I would fire from the hip (if gun is holstered) the instant the muzzle cleared the holster and was pointing at the BG. My weak hand would be used to defend with while my strong hand blasted away.

Jolly hit the nail on the head. It don't take seconds to draw and fire. You would gain more time by simply shooting from the hip plus your body is shielding the gun from a grab and your weak hand is free to protect your upper body.

BTW don't worry about folks busting your hangy down things. Always seek to get better no matter how crazy or silly it sounds. This forum is a great place to get tons of opinions both good and bad. I love posts like this as they make me think and thats good.
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Old July 6, 2008, 04:35 PM   #21
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Point shooting is a useful and important skill. If practiced one can reliably put shots with the gun in a retention position on a close in target very quickly. If the target is further away and still a legitimate threat, you need to hit the target and not just spray lead around the environment. Only hits count. A hundred misses is not firepower; one hit is firepower.
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Old July 6, 2008, 04:51 PM   #22
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Sounds like spray and pray to me.
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Old July 6, 2008, 05:33 PM   #23
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During the entire time that I have recieved instruction in fighting with firearms I have only ever heard of anything vaguely similar in my preperation to serve in war zones while I was in the Army (suppression, fire for effect and kill-zones). Any training I have recieved for personal defense has always been very careful to reinforce that we only discharge rounds into the threat, never around him/her. Maybe he misinterpreted firing from retention?

There are too many variables to risk putting rounds out there without a great deal of confidence that they will hit the bad-guy in my opinion. You may be tossing rounds away, sure. You may be trying to scare the guy away and forcing him out of his OODA loop, okay. But EVERY BULLET HAS A LAWYER ATTACHED TO IT.

You may stop the scumbag, but can you say with great certainty that your first two rounds, which you may have just launched between his legs, will not maim or kill an innocent bystander? Sorry, I'm not gonna take that chance. At best, I'll go for a Pelvic girdle shot on the way up, if-I-even-think-about-anything-besides-how-big-the-knife-is-and-how-much-trouble-I'm-in-at-that-instant-as-I-pray-I-can-stop-him-from-hurting-me-as-my-muscle-memory-kicks-in-and-I'm-yelling-and-frothing-like-a-rabid-idiot.

So, I bet you can guess that I'm not gonna use this technique.
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Old July 6, 2008, 06:58 PM   #24
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You are certainly wise to ask about this, and nothing in my post said otherwise. Your instructor may be a great guy, but the idea itself is very flawed, as many have said in this thread.

A far better technique would be to take several steps backwards while drawing and aiming. I've read and been told that you should be able to get your first shot off in 2 seconds, not several. Of course, the element of surprise, your position, and your method of carry will largely determine this, as well as your level of practice. Practice is everything, no matter what the technique or weapon. Standing still and firing low doesn't generate time and it wastes ammo you might need. It also endangers innocents. If you back up, you increase the distance the attacker has to cross to get to you, and that buys time. THAT'S what you're looking for here.

I watched my CWP instructor demonstrate this. He simultaneously drew, aimed, and shouted, "Stop or I'll shoot!" while taking several steps backward. As he moved, his gun remained locked on the torso of the imaginary attacker. If legalities are mentioned, this also backs up your defense, "I gave him every chance to cease and desist." Moving also messes up the attacker's path of advancement. He's now reacting to your movements, you're not reacting to his. You are in control. You can even turn sideways so the backstop behind him is clear of bystanders. Much preferable.

Didn't mean to step on your toes, but you asked for opinions, and I gave mine.
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Old July 6, 2008, 07:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltyke
...I've read and been told that you should be able to get your first shot off in 2 seconds, not several. ...
In my training, we were expected to draw and place two rounds COM in 1.5 seconds at 7 yards, and we all did. And we used our sights.
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