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Old July 5, 2008, 12:29 AM   #51
JohnKSa
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I think that stating it as "the element of surprise" is misleading.

I don't see CC as offering "the element of surprise" so much as it is a way to not expose all your capabilities to every passer by.

It's not that you're planning to "surprise" your attacker, it's that you want an option or capability left open to you that he doesn't know about as opposed to laying all your cards on the table.

As a police officer, that option might be a concealed backup gun or a bullet proof vest (although vests aren't much of a secret these days.) In a military situation, it would be technology, capabilities or weapons that have been kept secret from the enemy.

In nearly any armed confrontation it is universally considered beneficial to be stronger and more capable than the enemy realizes you are. The other option would be to appear so strong and capable that the enemy didn't dare attack. I would think several armed persons could manage the latter but a single OC'er doesn't seem to generate that level of respect. If it did we wouldn't see police officers shot and the example I posted earlier of a man who had his openly carried handgun taken from him wouldn't have happened.

Earlier on the thread I posted a link to a post with several real world examples of how being armed with a concealed handgun saved lives. The first one was a shooting range/gun store holdup in which the employees were taken hostage. The criminal came out of the range portion of the business with a loaded long gun, "ready to do business". There was no time for the employees to respond, but fortunately one was armed with a concealed handgun.

The criminal took the employees out into the alley behind the store and indicated he was going to kill them. The armed employee bided his time, and when the opportunity presented itself, he pulled his handgun and was able to disable the criminal by shooting him several times in the chest. No one else injured.

Had he been openly armed he would have had to shoot it out with the criminal immediately when the confrontation began, or he would have been disarmed. I suppose it COULD have worked out as well as it did, but it seems very unlikely since the criminal was at his highest readiness level at that point and the employee would have been taken by surprise. Because the gun was concealed he didn't have to act immediately and was able to pick the moment that offered the best odds for victory.
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Old July 5, 2008, 02:46 AM   #52
Nnobby45
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Quote:
I think that stating it as "the element of surprise" is misleading.......

......I don't see CC as offering "the element of surprise" so much as it is a way to not expose all your capabilities to every passer by.


Well, I'm not as philosophical as you are. I just don't want anyone to know I'm armed, and don't want attention called to me. Don't have a quarrel with those who open carry--just not for me unless I'm camping or in a rural environment. Even there, I tend to cover things up.


Quote:
The criminal took the employees out into the alley behind the store and indicated he was going to kill them. The armed employee bided his time.....
Now that's what I'm talking about!

He had the OPTION to draw and engage when HE wanted.

Apparently he was surprised and couldn't have drawn immediately, in which case he could have died on the spot when Bubba spotted his gun, or, in any event, would not have had the opportunity thereafter.

Unless you count down on your knees begging for your life, only Bubba would have had a sayso over life and death after that.
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Old July 5, 2008, 07:49 AM   #53
kraven
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I support anyone's right to carry and choose their carry method as they see fit, just as I do.
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Old July 5, 2008, 06:50 PM   #54
Nnobby45
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I support anyone's right to carry and choose their carry method as they see fit, just as I do.
I think that's the overwhelming view, including mine.

The disagreement is whether it's a tactically sound pratice.

And, with some, it's a matter of "excercising my right" type of thing.


Some may even argue that it's a deterrent. I believe that, too. I believe that open carry deters the biggest % those who would victimize you, but could get you killed where some others are concerned.

Since I already know I have the right to carry, I excercise it by being as low profile as possible. Open carry is very high profile. There isn't any in between.

I can't think of a way for me to be more low profile than to have everyone's eyes on someone elses gun, while not even relizing I'm there, and no clue at all that I'm armed.

On the other hand, I remember sitting in one restaurant while a gentleman at the next table stood up and took off his jacket and hung it on his chair. His weapon was plainly visible (and on the outside isle). I don't think anyone else noticed. The black weapon, ISP, with black shirt made it inconspicuous though plainly visible. Didn't see a badge.
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Old July 6, 2008, 11:59 PM   #55
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I agree with all of Nnooby45's statements, with the addition of some "making a statement that we can and should open carry."

I think that if you can and desire to OC, so be it. The same goes for CC...It is not anyone's right to tell you how to carry, and what thought you have put in to the pros and cons of each, having formed your own opinion around, are just as valid as the next person's. Remember, all of these are opinions and should be treated that way, with respect and an open mind.
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Old July 7, 2008, 01:33 PM   #56
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I think if OC were common the crime rate would fall through the floor. After all if you’re the bad guy and everywhere you look there’s someone with a gun I’m betting you would find your career opportunities very discouraging.
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Old July 7, 2008, 03:01 PM   #57
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I like where this post has gone since my post on the first page. It seems most people agree fundamental right, not preferred mode of carry.

I dislike this notion of the cross hair on your back while open carrying. I think the chances of being attacked go DOWN when you OC and the chances of being attacked for your gun go up slightly. It is probably a more than fair trade off. Yes it has happened to citizens exercising their rights to OC, I'm sure it has happened to LEO's and people who ccw as well. It is just a risk of carrying a gun and retention should always be considered. Oooh and if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation, you will be shot immediately I'll take my chances, like I said fair trade.

Rant over. I occasionally OC because I don't have my CCW yet, but even then I will CCW as primary carry mode and sometimes OC because I just love the convince of my paddle holster
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Old July 7, 2008, 04:01 PM   #58
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After all if you’re the bad guy and everywhere you look there’s someone with a gun I’m betting you would find your career opportunities very discouraging.
Contrary to popular belief, most criminals don't wind up criminals because they think it's an exciting career opportunity - it's more commonly done out of desperation (very often a chemical withdrawl induced desperation no less). I'm not saying some people wouldn't be deterred, but I think the percentage would be less than you'd think.
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Old July 7, 2008, 05:13 PM   #59
izzkidioto
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I agree with ChicagoTex. Many of our arguments make sense and are assuming the perps, who are desparate, are thinking in their right mind. This is not the case. Just as we use any means necessary to achieve our goal of living, so do they. Desperate times call for desperate measures no matter how you slice it or for whom.
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Old July 7, 2008, 10:33 PM   #60
ronc0011
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Contrary to popular belief, most criminals don't wind up criminals because they think it's an exciting career opportunity - it's more commonly done out of desperation (very often a chemical withdrawl induced desperation no less). I'm not saying some people wouldn't be deterred, but I think the percentage would be less than you'd think.





Ya know I did about 8 years as a homeless person and everyone I dealt with was living on the shady side of the law. Many came from crapy homes so that living on the streets was the better alternative. There were several who were vets, who for what ever reason just didn’t make the transition back into society. There were a few who were just mean, plan and simple. Met this one guy who had recently been released from prison and his specialty was just to pick someone out on the street and walk up to them and tell them to give him some money. He was a very intimidating figure and he always chose people who were obviously not going to argue the point with him. I knew a lot who would just game you out of your money. Then there were those who would do the snatch and grab, like break car windows where there was anything of value in plan sight, grab it and run. There were the few who would do the gun bit usually without ever actually drawing the weapon, just lift their shirt tail to show the weapon because obviously an open drawn weapon attracts a lot of attention. The average criminal in this country does what he does because that’s what he knows how to do and I have never meet one who is going to choose the person with the weapon strapped to their side for a victim. Most criminals are not criminals from desperation, their criminals for lack of options. There’s no desperation in their acts, they’re well thought out acts or at least pretty well thought out and they usually have the experience of previous attempts to know what to expect from their victim so they have a reasonable expectation of keeping control of the situation. I knew this one guy they called 211 Joey because armed robbery was his thing. Joey wasn’t desperate, he did what he did because it worked and I suspect it was an ego thing as well.

Thing is I also knew a lot of people who didn’t resort to criminal activities in order to take care of them selves. Also knew a lot of people who trafficked in controlled substances to make their money and even these managed to do this with out robbing people or in fact with out the need for firearms. For the average criminal who chooses to rob or burglarize it is a choice plan and simple and in making that choice they have also chosen where you fit into the grand scheme of things and of what value your life is.

In all those years, often sharing the same camp or boxcar with many of these people, I don’t think I ever met a single one who would knowingly choose the armed person for his victim, ever. Just because these people don’t have a lot of choices doesn’t mean they’re stupid or crazy.
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Old July 26, 2008, 07:04 PM   #61
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Thank you, ronc0011; it's always good to learn from the voice of experience as opposed to those in ivory towers spouting what they think is the truth born of a false premise. My past career choices have allowed me to see and "work with" the criminal elements as well. It isn't desperation that causes people to be criminals, it is their individual choice. I've interacted with and observed many a desperate and poor person, and very few of them choose to commit criminal acts upon another person for their personal benefit. A tiny fraction of people living below the poverty level actually commit a crime of robbery, theft, burglary, fraud, battery or assault. If it were a significant fraction in the least, we wouldn't have a working society at all. In fact, most fraud I've investigated comes from the middle class that had a comfortable financial life, but simply wanted more and the larceny in their heart, selfishness and lack of regard for another person caused them to commit a crime. Rich or poor the motivation is the same-- I want what I want, and I don't care who I have to hurt to have it.

But back to open carry, those same criminals are looking for a victim, not a fight. If the person appears to be able to take care of themselves, or raise such a stink to cause problems, then they are usually passed over unless some tactical error (usually in the form of inexperience) is made.

Last edited by Semi-jacketed; July 26, 2008 at 07:06 PM. Reason: topic
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Old July 26, 2008, 07:54 PM   #62
Sparky33
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the reason to get open carry is so that when you ccw if you print or your shirt comes up when you reach for something, you cant get charged with brandishing.
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Old July 26, 2008, 08:31 PM   #63
JohnKSa
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the reason to get open carry is so that when you ccw if you print or your shirt comes up when you reach for something, you cant get charged with brandishing
There is no brandishing law in TX. There are two offenses that are related to displaying weapons and NEITHER of them would result in charges being filed because of an accidental failure to conceal.

The first law has to do with displaying a weapon in a manner calculated to cause alarm. Clearly that would not apply to your shirt riding up accidentally.

The other is INTENTIONALLY failing to conceal by a CHL holder.
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Old July 27, 2008, 12:47 PM   #64
.300H&H
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It's kinda like going to a beach. If it's a nude beach, everybody's gonna stare at you and make you feel weird if you're the only one wearing clothes. Likewise if it's not a nude beach, and you show up naked - well, people are going to look at you funny too.<or worse>


In the 19th Century, it was kinda like a nude beach ie. everybody carried openly, and you might be feeling kinda vulnerable and odd in some places if you didn't do it too. Nowadays, it's just the reverse. Go with the flow.


Also consider the odds of things. How likely is it that someone will bump their car into your car, and when you go out to investigate, they start ranting and prove themselves to be a nut. Now if you're openly carrying a gun, they might even make a nasty false allegation about it. Hmmmmm...what's the liklihood of some situation like that unfolding compared to the liklihood of needing your open carry gun to save the day. I'd say that there's lots of the former situations, and only an extremely rare chance of the latter. Concealed - is the way to go. Life's a beach.
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Old July 27, 2008, 02:15 PM   #65
hkg3
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Spend some time in Arizona, open-carry is NOT a big deal at all.

It’s not too uncommon to see people OC. The only real annoying thing is sometimes someone will come up to you and want to talk about your gun.

The closest I’ve ever come to being bothered by a LEO is when one walked by me at a restaurant; he paused slightly, glanced at my .45 and continued walking.
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