The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 4, 2008, 03:02 AM   #26
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
Quote:
Honestly I don't know how many people would take advantage of open carry at all. There seems to be a lot of fear, but how many of you who live in an open carry state regularly see random people walking around with a gun on their side?

I'm betting very few.
You've never been to Arizona.

The problem with mandatory conceal carry is that in places like Washington State, you can lose your CCW if your jacket blows open and someone see's your handgun... and calls the police.

What is it about handguns that is evil, wrong or otherwise something that should be hidden away by law?

Most states that allow open carry (like my own) don't have many folk carrying that way... humm, why is that? Let's not mandate that someone must conceal their Constitutional rights, we should let them decide for themselves what is best for them. Most will opt to conceal, but for those who don't... what's your beef? Are you threatened by the presence of a handgun? Is the concept of "out of sight out of mind" comforting to you?

It's silly to me.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 03:10 AM   #27
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
I am sorry. I just cannot support open carry...

...at least not as a practice.

I feel it is contrary to everything I have ever been taught about proper defense and retention. I also think that a lot of people do it for the wrong reasons.

Supporting it in principle...that is a different story. I can support it in that context but would never do it myself.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 03:44 AM   #28
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
What's wrong with carrying openly, and if it's a hazard to the party in question, then explain why police carry openly and nationally their crime statistics aren't any worse then Joe Sixpacks.

If open carry inspires crime or somehow exposes the carrier to undue crime... please explain Arizona's carry laws and their violent crime statistics.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 03:48 AM   #29
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
Quote:
What's wrong with carrying openly, and if it's a hazard to the party in question, then explain why police carry openly and nationally their crime statistics aren't any worse then Joe Sixpacks.
Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.

As an individual you do not enjoy these same protections and you simply become a more complex target...but you also present a possibly bigger reward to an attacker. Once they know your defenses it is easy to circumvent them.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 05:05 AM   #30
MSgt G
Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2007
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 41
Here in Georgia, with a Georgia Firearms License, you can carry open or concealed. I mainly carry concealed, but do carry open on occasion. It's good to have the RIGHT to do either. I don't think we need to give up ANY of our 2nd Amendment rights.

I have witnessed no "John Wayne" types here. In fact, most people are even more polite than the average citizen. The LE doesn't bother me (in fact they aren't supposed to stop you to ask to see your license just because you're carrying any more than they're supposed to stop you while you're driving your car just to ask to see your license; there needs to be another reason.)

I've never had anyone even say a thing about me carrying open. Of course, I always dress so I look "presentable" so as to not give a bad appearance to the non-gun crowd. We don't need to give them any more "ammunition."

Again, it's good to have the option to do either. And remember, once we lose our rights it's hard to get them back. I think we, as responsible gun owners, should support both open and concealed carry then choose our own preferred carry method. Remember, we're on the same team and in this fight together.

If anyone is interested, check out www.GeorgiaCarry.org. These folks are doing amazing things for gun owners here.

I'm not a Texas resident, but if I can legally sign this petition please let me know.
MSgt G is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 05:50 AM   #31
Al Lowe
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2007
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 13
I suggest, for those among you who doubt the value, as well as the good idea of open carrying, you visit Open Carry dot org and visit their forums as well. They are replete with individual stories and examples of open carry. By and large, most go without incident, some end in less than desirable circumstances, and some are down right funny.

For me, the best effect of open carry is I am WAY more aware of my surroundings than with carrying concealed. That, and I get to educate folks from time to time on what is legal activity in this state.
__________________
Al Lowe
Al Lowe is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 08:06 AM   #32
izzkidioto
Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 35
Sturmgewehre, so what you are saying at the end of page 1 is that we should all OC to make a statement to the public and force the idea of our firearms on them? In addition, if we support CC and not OC we are hypocrites?

We need to revisit the reason we carry in the first place...and it isn't to make a statement to everyone, it is for personal protection and on occasion, for the safety of others around us. I am not negating your opinion, it is most certainly yours, but I would have to agree with maintaining the element of surprise and that some of us don't want every person to know we are armed.

Wether we are armed or not, a certain awareness is necessary. It shouldn't take a firearm to give you a heightened sense of cognitive awareness.
izzkidioto is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 09:29 AM   #33
wdelack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Location: Houston, TX.
Posts: 432
Quote:
I guess TX being gun friendly is a joke.
The people of Texas are very gun friendly, as I have met and know more gun owners than non gun owners. I find it that most Texans are not so open with regards to their gun ownership. I think they are very aware of the political climate (and anti-gun journalism :barf and know to keep quiet. However strike up a friendly conversation and let it turn to firearms.... It is probably this way with a lot of Americans.

I, personally, support OC but would not flaunt it myself. I don't need to strap a gun on my hip just to go to the movies, but I might if I were to head out to the Texas hill country for the weekend.
wdelack is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 12:46 PM   #34
rsgraebert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2008
Location: Northern Ohio
Posts: 201
i don't OC here (legal in ohio) except on my own property, but it's nice to know I can't get in trouble for printing or flashing accidentally.
__________________
Sharp as a cue ball...but moving faster.
rsgraebert is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 01:29 PM   #35
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
Quote:
Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.
I don't buy that. If a lone officer faces a lone criminal, I don't believe there is any difference. I know in Chicago police are shot at all the time... people don't seem to be too worried about messing with the brotherhood.

If some thug kills me, the police will come for him too... just as they would if they killed an officer.

Ironically, you claim openly armed police are a deterrent to crime yet you believe openly armed citizens are an invitation to crime. I don't understand the logic.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 01:42 PM   #36
AFshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2006
Location: Eastern Nebraska
Posts: 375
So quick to give away our constitutional rights because we are worried about what someone might think?

Carry your pistol, however you gotta do it.
__________________
03 FFL,
Certified Glock Armorer,

Nebraska Concealed Carry
AFshooter is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 01:46 PM   #37
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
Quote:
Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.
If you're hoping to maintain an "element of surprise" it could be argued that you're welcoming conflict and the opportunity to use your weapon. If you elect to carry openly, that's a big red sign to a potential mugger that you're not going to be a victim.

Every single study I've read, and in my criminology classes we learned that criminals almost always take the path of least resistance. If you hide your weapon, you may look like a potential target to a criminal on the hunt. You've just invited a crime in this instance. Now, had the criminal noticed you carrying a handgun on your hip, they would likely avoid you and opt for the easier pray. Criminals aren't always stupid, they aren't out to get killed or take undue risk when other options are available to them.

I would like for anyone here who opposes open carry to cite crime statistics of open carry states vs. concealed carry states to prove or disprove the notion open carry invites crime or that people who carry openly are more often victims of crime than those who don't.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 02:26 PM   #38
DKA
Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2008
Location: Southeast, NC
Posts: 61
You should do everything that you can to get Open Carry, while I Conceal Carry most of the time, I do Open Carry Some. There are advantages to both. The Thug that is going to bully or scare someone, will never do it with Open Carry, but at the same time the element of surprise is there with Conceal Carry. Go for both.
__________________
Keep on doing what you are doing and you will keep on getting what you are getting.
DKA is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 02:50 PM   #39
Water-Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: N. Georgia
Posts: 1,508
I believe anyone with a carry permit should have the option to open carry.
__________________
PROUD TO BE A VETERAN
Water-Man is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 03:20 PM   #40
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,206
Quote:
I would like for anyone here who opposes open carry to cite crime statistics of open carry states vs. concealed carry states to prove or disprove the notion open carry invites crime or that people who carry openly are more often victims of crime than those who don't.
The percentage of people open carrying is essentially negligible, the idea that it would affect crime statistics is laughable. Until a significant percentage of the population of a particular state (by that I mean maybe 1% or so) is actually OC'ing, there won't be a way to say anything based on statistics.
Quote:
If you're hoping to maintain an "element of surprise" it could be argued that you're welcoming conflict and the opportunity to use your weapon.
Off-duty cops carry concealed, are you saying that a rational person would think that off-duty cops are welcoming conflict more than on-duty cops? The assertion is not supportable.

Furthermore being able to choose the time and place (or even IF) you respond is a significant advantage in some situations. If you are openly armed, you don't get to make those choices, they're made for you. I listed some real world situations here.
Quote:
You've just invited a crime in this instance.
First of all, the idea that a CC invites crime by concealing is ridiculous. Statistics show that CC actually discourages violent crime across the board because criminals consider that anyone in the area (including the victim) may be armed and they have no way to tell who is and who isn't.

On the other hand, if they can pinpoint who's armed and who's not, their job is much easier. In fact, here's an instance where a person invited crime by OC'ing. The proof is that nothing besides his gun was taken.
"Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured."
I believe OC should be legal, but I don't think it's the best carry option for several reasons.

Moving to Tactics & Training--looks like that's now the main topic of this thread.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 03:33 PM   #41
JayCee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2001
Posts: 431
I'm not sure I would ever open carry in a public setting, but I'm not convinced that prohibitions on open carry are a reasonable restriction on the right to keep and bear arms.
__________________
“You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas.” – David Crockett

“If I owned Texas and hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell.” - General Phillip H. Sheridan
JayCee is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 05:51 PM   #42
Elvishead
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2007
Location: Las vegas, NV
Posts: 3,397
Freedom of choice. Now let us talk about abortion, should we? LOL

Get the picture?

Ya na ya na ya na.
Elvishead is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 06:47 PM   #43
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
Most will opt to conceal, but for those who don't... what's your beef?
My "beef" is that everybody's attention is on me and my gun, in direct conflict with going about my business unnoticed while blending in. I only want me to know I'm armed--it's a secret.

I think surprise is a tactical advantage. Open carry may deter 9 out of 10 Bubbas, but surrendering your tactical advantage to the 10th one could cost you your life.

Of course, making a statement about the 2A and being noticed is what it's about for some (not all), and I support their right to open carry all they wish. As mentioned, it's strategy and tactics for me--not politics.

Quote:
Are you threatened by the presence of a handgun? Is the concept of "out of sight out of mind" comforting to you?
No. I LIKE everybodys' eyes on you, and I especially like to observe who's observing you.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 07:59 PM   #44
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
Quote:
The percentage of people open carrying is essentially negligible, the idea that it would affect crime statistics is laughable. Until a significant percentage of the population of a particular state (by that I mean maybe 1% or so) is actually OC'ing, there won't be a way to say anything based on statistics.
Statistics exist regardless of the percentage. How many people who are openly armed are victims of crime? It doesn't matter if they represent 90% of the population or 1%, there are statistics.


Quote:
Off-duty cops carry concealed, are you saying that a rational person would think that off-duty cops are welcoming conflict more than on-duty cops? The assertion is not supportable.
It was a comment made by the poster I was commenting on, not concealed carry in general. I think that distinction is clear if you read the exchange.

Concealed carry is just as viable as open carry and it should be left to the discretion of the person, not the government.

Quote:
Furthermore being able to choose the time and place (or even IF) you respond is a significant advantage in some situations. If you are openly armed, you don't get to make those choices, they're made for you. I listed some real world situations here.
In "some" situations. You can't measure the number of crimes you deter. But you can talk to inmates and ask them if armed citizens deter crime and in every instance I've read the overwhelming majority of criminals say that armed citizens do in fact do deter them.

Quote:
First of all, the idea that a CC invites crime by concealing is ridiculous.
So you're saying a hidden weapon is more of a deterrent than an openly displayed weapon? I think that is ridiculous.

Quote:
Statistics show that CC actually discourages violent crime across the board because criminals consider that anyone in the area (including the victim) may be armed and they have no way to tell who is and who isn't.
That's works great on a national average, and I agree with it. But unfortunately if you're a 140lbs nerd walking down the street at 1am you look like an easy mark regardless of the national average regarding CCW. If you have a weapon openly displayed, you look far less appealing to a mugger. That's a fact.

Quote:
On the other hand, if they can pinpoint who's armed and who's not, their job is much easier. In fact, here's an instance where a person invited crime by OC'ing. The proof is that nothing besides his gun was taken.

"Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured."
Anecdotal. Are you saying a person carrying concealed has never been jumped from behind? That's absolutely ridiculous, if that's what you think.

Quote:
I believe OC should be legal, but I don't think it's the best carry option for several reasons.
I don't recall saying it was the best carry option. Please quote me if I said that. I only believe it should be legal in all 50 states - and should be left up to the discretion of the firearm owner.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 08:13 PM   #45
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Open carry and concealed carry should both be legal. Also, both should be OPTIONS, neither should be mandatory. The decision to carry open or concealed should be up the the individual, depending on the place and situation. There are sound reasons both pro and con for both.
Keltyke is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 08:25 PM   #46
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
Quote:
Freedom of choice. Now let us talk about abortion, should we?
I actually feel pretty much the same way about both. I do not agree with the practice, I would never do it myself, and I think it causes more problems than it solves...but I still support a person's right to do both.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 09:07 PM   #47
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,206
Quote:
Statistics exist regardless of the percentage. How many people who are openly armed are victims of crime? It doesn't matter if they represent 90% of the population or 1%, there are statistics.
I didn't say that no statistics existed, I thought I was very clear. What I said was: "Until a significant percentage of the population of a particular state (by that I mean maybe 1% or so) is actually OC'ing, there won't be a way to say anything based on statistics. "

Ok, since that's apparently not clear, here's an example. Tell me the statistics on people struck by lightning while eating drinking a diet soft drink vs drinking non-diet soft drinks.

Obviously there are so few people are struck by lightning that when you combine the additional requirement that they also be drinking a soft drink at the time it's unlikely that you're going to get any data points at all.

And even if you DO get a data point or two, there's still not sufficient data to tell you anything about which is more likely to occur. Until you get a significant number of people in the studied category you can't say much about how likely they are to be in another category as well.
Quote:
Concealed carry...should be left to the discretion of the person, not the government.
I agree 100%. That's why I posted this: "I believe OC should be legal..."
Quote:
In "some" situations. You can't measure the number of crimes you deter.
You didn't read the examples provided in the link or you would realize how irrelevant this remark is. If you carry openly and are involved in an armed encounter, you have only the following options. Run/attempt to run, draw immediately or allow yourself to be disarmed/neutralized. It's inconceivable that an armed criminal would perpetrate a crime with an openly armed person present and simply allow that person to stand there unmolested. If, on the other hand, you are carrying concealed, you do not automatically present an immediate threat which means that you have a chance to remain part of the crowd (or at least not be thought of as an obvious threat) until there is an opportune moment to respond.

The examples I listed in the link gave some examples of situations where lives were saved as a result of a concealed gun being used successfully at the most opportune moment where an openly carried gun would have forced an encounter immediately with results that would have been questionable, at best.
Quote:
So you're saying a hidden weapon is more of a deterrent than an openly displayed weapon? I think that is ridiculous.
I didn't say that. What I said was that concealed carry has shown to have a beneficial effect on violent crime because criminals know that some of the population is armed but they don't know which ones. That is a deterrent that works whether there is an armed person present or not.

A criminal can immediately tell if there is someone OC'ing. They can then simply avoid committing the crime while there is an armed person around.

Think about it this way. Police have always OCed. In spite of that, crime goes down when concealed carry laws are passed. If a few people OC'ing (police, for example) is such a deterrent to crime then why is it that CC laws further reduce crime? Because criminals don't commit crimes while there's a cop around. They just wait until the cop leaves and go ahead with their original plans. You say deterrent, I say postponement. On the other hand if you KNOW that several hundred thousand citizens in your state are armed but you can't pick them out by looking, THAT'S a deterrent. Now you can't tell who's a victim and who's armed.

Yes, OC can be a deterrent in the immediate vicinity of an OC'er although the counterexample I posted proves that this doesn't always work--and it can even make one a target. CC provides a level of deterrence everywhere, all the time.
Quote:
Anecdotal. Are you saying a person carrying concealed has never been jumped from behind? That's absolutely ridiculous, if that's what you think.
First of all, I'm not attempting to say that ALL OC'ers are targets, I'm only showing that it CAN happen. Therefore it is NOT anecdotal, it is proof. It is proof that it CAN happen because it is proof that it HAS happened.

Second, I'm not saying a CC person has never been jumped from behind. What I AM saying is that a person who is successfully concealing a handgun has never INVITED attack by being armed while at least one OC person has.
Quote:
I don't recall saying it was the best carry option.
I don't recall saying you said it was. I made the comment to explain my views on OC, not as a response to anything you posted.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 10:39 PM   #48
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
Quote:
I don't recall saying you said it was. I made the comment to explain my views on OC, not as a response to anything you posted.
Then I think we agree.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 10:56 PM   #49
skeeter1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2006
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 3,403
Quote:
"If open carry is legalized, there will be a huge surge in locations where carrying a firearm (concealed or not) is illegal. Merchants who previously didn't know/notice/or care will now be pressed into taking sides on the issue and a lot more carry-prohibition signs are gonna go up."
It's technically legal here in Ohio, and I've done it many times on public hunting land, but try doing it anywhere else, and you're going to be surrounded by a SWAT team. I'd love open carry, but it's not likely to happen here.
skeeter1 is offline  
Old July 4, 2008, 11:18 PM   #50
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
Quote:
If I simply had to use my carry piece, I'd rather use it with the element of surprise on my side. Exposing one's situation to the scrutiny of a possible opponent is a big tactical mistake. Open carry gives 'em a chance to think.
Just curious.

For those that so authoritatively state that "element of surprise" is a big advantage (and in a DEFENSIVE situation at that. . .), I'm just wondering what your actual experience or qualifications are to make that huge assumption?

All the tactics taught to me by the government emphasized that the element of surprise was essential in OFFENSIVE operations. And in over twenty years of carrying a weapon professionally, I saw and experienced that to be true.

Quote:
Police are an organized and open deterrent to crime. They are one of many and never stand alone. You mess with one and you know there are dozens ready to back them up with full authority of law.
I'll buy that for SEALs. But I never really experienced that in LE. Some cops would back you up, but just as many were cowards and bullies. I never ran into neither a coward or bully in our military outfit.

Personally? I'm all for open carry and I'm all for having the choice. If open carry concerns you, then don't open carry.

How simple is that?

But please do not try to tell me that the way you prefer to view your Constitutional right is superior to the way I choose to view my same right.

How would you feel if I lobbied for Open Carry only--with no conceal carry?

We should have the choice.

Jeff
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14265 seconds with 7 queries