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Old July 2, 2008, 08:02 PM   #1
AttackTurtle
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American Airlines Firearms Declaration Experience.

Just wanted to share. I read and reread the guidlines prior to going on the flight. Firearm needs to be in a hard container locked unloaded. Ammunition cannot be loose. AA said to have it in its original container or in the case with the gun. Luggage must also be locked. At first I thought a TSA lock on the gun case would work and then another on the luggage itself. After looking into it more, I found several references that state the lock on the hard case with the firearem must be a lock only you can open meaning NO to the TSA lock so I used a non TSA lock and brought an extra TSA lock in the event somebody told me to switch it.

So,, from my hometown to Miami, I got to the desk and declared my firearm. The ticketing agent became just slightly nervous. she had me sign a slip of paper that declared the firearm was unloaded. She had me unlock my luggage and unlock the gun case, put the paper with the gun, and then lock it all back up. She didnt ask me to show it was unloaded and we did this right at the counter. I was kind of expecting to go to a separate room. Then, luggage went on the belt and I was on my way. That was it.

From Miami to hometown was different. I got to the desk and declared my firearm. The ticketing agent was a became nervous and slightly agitated and found another agent to help her. They had me sign the paper, open luggage and hard case. Then asked that I show it was unloaded. It was a revolver. I gently lifted gun, kept it pointing down, and opened the action. The first agent that didn't know what to do made an audible sound when I picked up the firearm. It was kind of a frightened squeak. She (2nd agent) had me close the case and put the paper I signed next to the gun case as opposed to in it like last time and then close the luggage. She refused to let me lock ANYTHING. gun case nor luggage. Again, this was at counter, not in private room. She also wouldn't take my luggage. She said I had to take my luggage to some TSA screeners and declare it there. Off I went. They were nearby. This was not the area everyone walks through. This was a luggage droppoff area. 3 screeners behind a rope with an x-ray baggage machine behind them. I walked up and told them I was told to declare here. The 1st TSA guy said thank you, took my luggage and started walking off!!! I said "Wait, are you bringing that back??!! The ticketing agents wouldnt let my lock it!" to which he replied that I did not need it locked!?!! I told him that I do, both gun case and luggage. He said no, they dont really care. The other 2 agents were nodding in agreement. I told him I dont want that luggage going anywhere without a lock so he brought it back and let me lock the main bag and then off my luggage went. No lock on the hard gun case, just a TSA lock on my baggage. I wasn't worried of theft, just that the rules weren't followed and I didnt want some TSA screener in the next hallway to confiscate my piece since it was not locked but they swore not to worry so I didnt. Off I went and when I arrived in my hometown, all was well. All in all, it was a lot easier then I expected. You sould have more trouble trying to get a half empty 4 oz bottle of shampoo past the screeners in your carry on then you will declaring a firearm. ( I say that because limit was 3.6 oz and I have heard that they go by what is stated and don't care how much is left. )
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Old July 2, 2008, 09:09 PM   #2
azredhawk44
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You didn't travel with a printout of the regs to educate the screeners?

You're a braver man than I, allowing your firearm out of your sight, unlocked at the airport.
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Old July 2, 2008, 11:47 PM   #3
MyGunsJammed
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Great writeup..... I would make a complaint about those TSA guys for not allowing you to put the lock on the cases.....

allowing them to walk away w/o the locks in place would only open up the way for more problems...
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Old July 2, 2008, 11:53 PM   #4
hoytinak
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Quote:
So,, from my hometown to Miami, I got to the desk and declared my firearm. The ticketing agent became just slightly nervous. she had me sign a slip of paper that declared the firearm was unloaded. She had me unlock my luggage and unlock the gun case, put the paper with the gun, and then lock it all back up. She didnt ask me to show it was unloaded and we did this right at the counter. I was kind of expecting to go to a separate room. Then, luggage went on the belt and I was on my way. That was it.
I have flown on just about every airline possible to several different states and this has been my experience every time.
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Old July 3, 2008, 11:15 AM   #5
mister2
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Quote:
She refused to let me lock ANYTHING. gun case nor luggage. Again, this was at counter, not in private room. She also wouldn't take my luggage. She said I had to take my luggage to some TSA screeners and declare it there. Off I went. They were nearby. This was not the area everyone walks through. This was a luggage droppoff area. 3 screeners behind a rope with an x-ray baggage machine behind them. I walked up and told them I was told to declare here. The 1st TSA guy said thank you, took my luggage and started walking off!!! I said "Wait, are you bringing that back??!! The ticketing agents wouldnt let my lock it!" to which he replied that I did not need it locked!?!! I told him that I do, both gun case and luggage. He said no, they dont really care. The other 2 agents were nodding in agreement. I told him I dont want that luggage going anywhere without a lock so he brought it back and let me lock the main bag and then off my luggage went. No lock on the hard gun case, just a TSA lock on my baggage.
This happened to me at Ronald Reagan National Airport in DC. Counter person said don't lock hardcase, inspite of my insistence the procedures said otherwise. She insisted. OK. I'll go along to get along. WRONG! I roll bag around to X-ray (that's SOP for National, anyway) and TSA person says "good to go". Wait. Gun case unlocked !?! Supervisor gets paged. Meantime, luggage was on the belt and disappeared into the hole.

Long and short, Sup calls holding area to get my luggage recalled. Now everyone with a handie-talkie knows my luggage is "special". Supervisor gets his own licks in by strongly "suggesting" I lock outer bag with TSA lock, too. Bad all around. I was on needles and pins all the way, but as Bill says, "All's well that ends well".

The point? I should have halted the process between the check-in counter and X-ray machine, paged supervisor, explained situation and asked for an opportunity to lock the case before it disappeared. And yes, I did have the airline/TSA reg prinouts with me. Some readers may interchange the steps, but we agree in principle.

On a positive note, the supervisor revisited with counter person and very clearly explained the need to lock gun case before leaving counter.

I did not mind the inconvenience since I always come two and a half hours before flight time for situations like this and did my part, though indeliberately, in clarifying at least one person's understanding of the regs.
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Old July 3, 2008, 11:19 AM   #6
hkg3
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WOW!
Unlocked and concealed!
If you were to arrive in Kalifornia, pick up your luggage, and get caught, you would be screwed!
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Old July 3, 2008, 12:04 PM   #7
GHF
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FAA Rules On Locking Checked Weapons

Make sure you have the keys to the lockable hard-sided case with you and you alone (Per Federal Regulations § 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals - http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...2.10.6&idno=49) at all times. You will have to open the lockable hard-side case
  • to demonstrate to the airline that the weapon(s) are not loaded at check in
  • if the TSA wants to see.
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Old July 3, 2008, 07:09 PM   #8
AttackTurtle
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I had a printout in case anybody started becoming aggressive but they were just doing what they thought they were supposed to. In my experience, its best to just be friendly and try not to make yourself an issue unless your forced to. I think this goes for most things in life. If you challenge anybodies knowledge of something, for one reason or another or if your an *******, your going to have an uphill climb. I just contacted TSA.. Ill update what happens Monday. Im sure they are off tmrrw.
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RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

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Old July 4, 2008, 12:04 AM   #9
chris in va
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Technically you weren't supposed to be handling your firearm. She was in the wrong asking you to show it was unloaded.

When a TSA agent came and inspected my box, he used a stick to move things around some.
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Old July 4, 2008, 02:20 PM   #10
brickeyee
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Quote:
Technically you weren't supposed to be handling your firearm. She was in the wrong asking you to show it was unloaded.
Baggage check is not in the 'sterile' area of an airport.
Over the years I have been asked to show a gun that was to be checked was unloaded, but plenty of times they just took my word after I signed the declaration card.
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Old July 5, 2008, 12:39 PM   #11
4V50 Gary
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A fellow at Arfcom (ar15.com) followed the procedures and the ticket agent had him fill out the form and stick it into the case. They declined looking at the gun (mistake). Later, the gun was stolen at SFO while in transit. He filed a theft report and the airline declined his claim since they never saw the gun. SFPD did a mickey-mouse report and the TSA brushed him off.

Lessons: Carry a print-out of the law with you. TSA isn't necessarily well trained in their own jobs. Make sure the agent sees the gun so that they cannot deny a claim. Lock your case. Buy theft insurance before you go (through the NRA if nobody else).
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Old July 5, 2008, 03:39 PM   #12
AttackTurtle
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Thats stupid. You have to wonder if they deny a lot of claims like that or just this gun claim because I don't see how them actually "seeing" the gun has anything to do with theft. If I have a camera and it disappears, I don't think they can say "well i didnt see it.."
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RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
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Old July 9, 2008, 09:52 PM   #13
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Flew Southwest Airlines from Houston Hobby to Orange County/John Wayne. No problem at check in, female check in clerk no big deal. I handled gun to show not loaded. Got to baggage claim in CA picked up suitcase which had gun case and gun inside. Walked out, got rental car, drove away.
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Old July 9, 2008, 10:16 PM   #14
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I just flew on Delta from Atlanta to Salt Lake City with a Glock 19 and a Keltec P3AT. I didn't have a problem on either end and the process was the same in ATL and SLC.

--I declared firearm.
--Ticket agent had me open suitcase containing hard case.
--Ticket agent had me unlock and open hard case.
--I placed a signed card stating gun was unloaded (I did not have to show that it was unloaded, just sign a statement saying it was).
--I closed the case, but left it unlocked at ticket agents request.
--I placed case back in suitcase, and closed suitcase.
--Ticket agent placed a sticker reading CAGPT on outside of suitcase. This is a Delta acronym that means "Check And Give Protection To". Delta will place this sticker on all high value freight.
--Ticket agent walked me over to the TSA guy.
--TSA guy opened suitcase, swiped it with a swab, and stuck swab in a machine (I guess checking for explosives or chemicals).
--TSA guy closed case, and had me put the locks back on.
--TSA guy put hard case back in suitcase, then closed and locked suitcase.
--TSA guy put suitcase on conveyor belt and told me to have a good flight.
--I picked up suitcase on other end without a problem.

Overall it was a positive experience.
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Old July 11, 2008, 12:33 AM   #15
HoraceHogsnort
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Its just flat disturbing that SO MANY of the people at the airports in this country do not know how to do their jobs when ANYTHING UNUSUAL arises. They know all the routine stuff really well but just get off the paved road for a bit and they are not at all well trained. If a $1200 gun disappears then that's just tough. That's just another good reason for me to never fly anywhere again.
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Old July 11, 2008, 12:59 AM   #16
Big Don
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I haven’t been carrying the TSA/airline regs up until now but that won’t be the case anymore, based on comments in this thread.

Some time ago, they stopped asking to see if to see if the firearm was empty and just my word for it. I guess if it wasn’t then I’m the one in trouble, not the airline. (Good thing I have my CCW, I guess.)

I fly Southwest on a regular basis and it’s here in California most of the time. I have a stack of the little cards SW uses for firearms declarations and have my return address stamped on them. All I have to do is sign my name and the date and put the card into my hard case once the agent has filled out the SW portion.

I used to carry a compact .45. I use a Pelican case with the foam removed to hold the firearm and the magazine firmly in place. Several years ago, the TSA morons at LAX said that the magazine was supposed to be empty as the round could “roll around in the case”, despite the tape I had over the top round. They wrote an “incident report” and confiscated my ammo. Mind you, I was going home and had gotten to LA with no problems and had traveled like this multiple times.

I switched to a revolver and started putting the rounds into a “child-proof” medicine container which fit into the form slot that previously held the .45 mag. I have been doing this for several years also. Then, on my last trip to LA, the young lady at the SW counter said I couldn’t carry the ammo like that. I told her that was how I’d done if for multiple trips and TSA hadn’t squawked about it. She took my bag back to the TSA people and was gone for quite awhile. On her return, she told me I couldn’t carry the ammo that way and TSA said so. I told her I wanted to speak with the TSA supervisor so away she went, with my boarding pass, and came back with a young man who claimed to be the supervisor. He apologized for the delay, said he, two other TSA people and two airline people all read the regs and agreed I couldn’t carry the ammo that way. I said “fine”, but what about all those other times I’d flown that way without a problem? He basically said “We screwed up and you got lucky.” He agreed that the carry method was very safe and the rounds weren’t going anywhere but that’s not what the rules specified. I took the ammo back to my vehicle and flew to LA.

Once I got there, I had time to speak with a TSA supervisor about the whole mess. He agreed that it was screwed up and that different regions did things “differently.” I told him that didn’t do me and my fellow firearms owners much good when we got a different interpretation at one end, quite contrary to where we started. He agreed. I also told him about the .45 magazine issue and the said the LAX TSA people screwed that up completely and that my method was per the rules. His advice was to carry the ammo in the original box (nice, flimsy cardboard) and if I reload, put those rounds into one of my handy plastic ammo boxes.

My whole problem is the inconsistent application of the rules and I let the supervisor know that. He agreed with me. I was “lucky” since most of the TSA people didn’t know the rules and we didn’t get things corrected until this last trip. I now have a box of 20 rounds and that lives in my suitcase, just for my travel. I’m leaving the regular load in my vehicle, load up with the ammo from the box while I’m traveling and reverse the process upon my return. And, I’m keeping the regs right next to the ammo box. This could have/should have been the case a long time ago if they had done their job correctly and consistently!
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Old July 11, 2008, 08:39 PM   #17
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I've flown with checked guns a half-dozen times since 9/11, usually to California. (Always taken cheap guns, in case they go AWOL.) The only problem I've had was a couple of TSA monkeys who couldn't decide what constituted a hard suitcase.

However, I've ALWAYS been marked for "special attention" at the water-bottles-are-weapons-of-mass-destruction security checkpoint.
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Old July 23, 2008, 05:57 PM   #18
AttackTurtle
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Well update for me is no real update; TSA never responded to my email to them.

Best we can do is keep flying with firearms when possible even with all the crap we put up with. Rarely used rights/privileges are easier to disappear and less noticeable to the public when/if they do.
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RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
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Old July 28, 2008, 09:54 AM   #19
nemo2econ
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Flying AA out of Washington Reagan Airport

I will be flying with a firearm on American Airlines out of Washington Reagan Airport this week. I will come back with a detailed post of my experience when I'm back next week.
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Old July 28, 2008, 11:09 AM   #20
OnTheFly
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First of all, thanks to AttackTurtle for this thorough report. This is invaluable information for those who are considering traveling with a firearm.

I work in an industry where we have to abide by a wealth of federal code. The inconsistency mentioned in the above posts emphasizes the immutable truth...regulations/policies will be interpreted differently by different individuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AttackTurtle
After looking into it more, I found several references that state the lock on the hard case with the firearem must be a lock only you can open meaning NO to the TSA lock so I used a non TSA lock and brought an extra TSA lock in the event somebody told me to switch it.
Regarding the locks, as I've said in other threads, I've traveled twice (home to Dallas and back home) with firearms. Both times I had two TSA locks on my hard gun case which was inside my checked bag. There was NO lock on the suitcase. TSA at home, in Dallas, AND in Los Angeles had no issues with it. On my second occasion of traveling with a firearm, the checked bag with gun was supposed to go from my home airport through Denver and then to Dallas. However, it got on the wrong flight and spent the night in the Los Angeles area before it was routed to Dallas 24+ hours later. During this visit to the left coast, it was inspected twice by TSA as noted by the notices left inside my suitcase. Again, TSA had no issue with my TSA approved locks on the hard case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFR Title: 49 Part 1540.111(c)(2)(iv)
The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.
Regarding the regulation referenced by GHF...my experience is that the government views themselves different than the civilian. I'm betting that most TSA would state that the regulation above applies to individuals and not the government employee. Apparently the 10 TSA employees that looked at my suitcase and gun case would agree.

Fly
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Old July 28, 2008, 03:18 PM   #21
brickeyee
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Quote:
Regarding the regulation referenced by GHF...my experience is that the government views themselves different than the civilian. I'm betting that most TSA would state that the regulation above applies to individuals and not the government employee. Apparently the 10 TSA employees that looked at my suitcase and gun case would agree.
Or they are not familiar with the law.
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Old July 28, 2008, 03:35 PM   #22
Eghad
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From the TSA website....

Quote:
You must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
The firearm must be unloaded.
The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
The container must be locked.
We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.
You must securely pack any ammunition in fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging that is specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
You can't use firearm magazines/clips for packing ammunition unless they completely and securely enclose the ammunition (e.g., by securely covering the exposed portions of the magazine or by securely placing the magazine in a pouch, holder, holster or lanyard).
You may carry the ammunition in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as you pack it as described above.
You can't bring black powder or percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms in either your carry-on or checked baggage.

We and other authorities strictly enforce these regulations. Violations can result in criminal prosecution and civil penalties of up to $10,000 per violation.

Airlines may have their own additional requirements on the carriage of firearms and the amount of ammunition that you may have in your checked baggage. Therefore, travelers should also contact the airline regarding its firearm and ammunition carriage policies.
Also, please note that many other countries have different laws that address transportation and possession of firearms. If you are traveling internationally, please check with the authorities at your destination about their requirements.
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...rial_1666.shtm
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Old July 28, 2008, 03:49 PM   #23
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Southwest's Cleveland-to-Chicago route has always been pain-free for me. Even when I'm coming through Chicago with can't-have-in-Chicago guns to drive out of Cook.
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Old July 28, 2008, 10:17 PM   #24
OnTheFly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickeyee
Or they are not familiar with the law.
Always a distinct possibility. The TSA bag screeners who told AttackTurtle he didn't have to lock the hard case were a prime example.

Quote:
If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.
Good info Eghad. When my suitcase went to California without me, and the TSA inspected my bag, what would have happened if I didn't have the TSA locks on the case? Would they just have ignored a locked case in someones luggage? No way. If I didn't have my TSA locks on the case, my locks would have been cut and who knows what I would have gone through to get my firearm back.

Fly
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Old July 29, 2008, 04:23 PM   #25
shaman
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I checked the rules, called the airline to make sure all was ok.

still,

it was spooky to pull an 18 inch barrelled pump 12 gauge out of the case right there at the ticket counter at houston hobby and cycle the action.

guy put a paper in the case and had me lock it back, asked if i had only keys for those locks.

they took it right there at the counter and away it went.

no one seemed ruffled, all seemed routine with them, no nervousness on their part.

i had visions of swat teams and robocop and underdog showing up, was pretty nervous about doing it,

but it was all smooth.

on the way home, at flint michigan, they had me unlock the locks and they took it into the back somewhere and came back in a few moments with it locked.

i asked could i open it to make sure the shotgun was actually still in that case.

mistake.

i backed off quickly and just hoped it was there.

it was.
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