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Old September 23, 2009, 02:35 PM   #26
attila787
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My impression was that if the barrel is marked .308 and not 7.62 it was ok to shoot commercial ammo.

Any thoughts????

On the hunting the only problem I have is the safety. It pretty loud taking it off safety especially out huntin
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Old September 25, 2009, 07:14 PM   #27
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Heavy is about the only con. If you "2 finger (fore & aft)" the safety to move it and not click it, it is silent. Accuracy is beyond the realm of reasonable. I have always used the 180 gr rounds, with no problem, but thats only about 200-300 rnds. The one thing I dont like about semis in general for hunting is the cartridge engagment at the field or in the stand. With the G3/hk91 or even the ar10, this is accomplished by loud CLAAANK of chambering , (my dpms lr308b doesnt have a fwd assist either). My M1a, and my 750 rem, allow ~silent lock and load, and the ability to verify "forward assist" by nudging on the slide levers. I agree that the iron sights on GI M1As suck for hunting (in woods), but they do offer tritium solutions for that, and, scope mounts ofcourse.
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Old September 25, 2009, 11:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
The M1A is head spaced for military spec 7.62 NATO, not SAMMI spec .308 Winchester.
I can't speak on earlier M1As, but at least on recent M1As this is not true.
They are headspaced to shoot either/or. In the neighborhood of 1.6315".

Quote:
My impression was that if the barrel is marked .308 and not 7.62 it was ok to shoot commercial ammo.

Any thoughts????
I shoot commercial .308 through mine all the time. As long as you stay under 180 gr (and preferably below 170), and don't use the light magnum loads or anything else that will cause your op rod to cry, the rifle will do just fine.

I hunt with mine. Some folks say the irons suck for hunting, but I totally disagree. I think they are much better than traditional open sights. They may be darker in low light situations, but IME, if I have enough light to make a responsible shot, I have enough light to see through the aperture. In addition, my eyes had gotten to where they were refusing to focus when using traditional open sights. I've always felt like optics were "cheating" unless shooting from significant distances, so I had become pretty frustrated with deer hunting. Shot a friend's Mini-14 while popping cans at another friend's farm, and lo and behold, the aperture sight was a miracle worker. Bought a M1A, and love it. I killed a doe last season with it.

That being said, yes, it is heavy. The bolt, safety, and magazines are loud. Not a big deal as long as you do your best to keep it quiet and don't let the bolt slam home full force, but still a nuisance nonetheless.

As for dealing with the loud safety, I pinch it between my thumb and forefinger to be sure to ease it into position and not to let it click too loudly. You just have to be careful.

As for dealing with the weight, get a sling. Use it. Not just to carry your rifle, but use a hasty sling to steady your shots. A good sling is priceless.



MHO: If you are looking for a semi auto that is a do-all rifle that'll also hunt, the M1A is a tough platform to beat. If you are looking for a "hunting only" rifle to mount optics on, there are better and cheaper choices.


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Old September 26, 2009, 06:06 AM   #29
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I wouldn't want an M1A for a hunting rifle; there's others on the market much easier to shoot accurately and are more accurate out of the box for one third to half the price.

For those concerned about the ammo used in M1A/M14 and M1 service rifles chambered for the 7.62 NATO round, consider the following....

Headspace in rifles accurized by military shops all had minimum headspace because that's what produced the best accuracy. Typical headspace in thes rifles is 1.630 to 1.631 inch. The differences in specs between 7.62 NATO and .308 Win. chamber headspace are not at issue with these rifles, but may be with rifles built by shade tree mechanics.

Many thousands of rounds of commercial .308 Win. match ammo military teams bought from Federal, Remington, Hornady as well as handloaded commercial .308 Win. cases loaded by teams' support personnel were fired through these rifles without incident. One load the USN and USAF liked for long range in their Garands was 44 grains of IMR4320 in an M118 primed case with a Sierra 190 seated on it. That's a pretty stiff load but properly built Garands had no op rod problems. Another load all the services' rifle teams used duplicated the blue pill (pressure test) load used by arsenals; pulling the 147-gr. bullet from an M80 ball round then seating a Sierra 168 in it producing a round more accurate than LC match ammo. The Army and USMC teams pulled M118 match bullets then seated a Sierra 180 in the case; another stiff load that won long range matches without incident.
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Old September 26, 2009, 09:20 AM   #30
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Thank's

Quote:
With 1000 yard shots potentially in your future I suggest you find a nice, slightly used, all original Poly Tech or Norinco M14 for less
Thanks for starting my morning off with a good laugh...
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Old September 26, 2009, 09:30 AM   #31
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Wow this is an old post.

I have a Springfield Armory M1A National Match now. Don't shoot it as much as my AR, but it holds tight tight groups at 50 yards. (Cloverleafed with Irons).

The M1A is surely a heavy rifle, which would make it "non-ideal" for a long day of hiking and hunting, but since it's only rifle I have in a full sized cartridge, it'll make do for now.

I think, that SR420, by recommending a Norinco or Polytech was recommending them in the sense that, I can buy a nice, forged reciever rifle for cheap ($800), then upgrade it with a JAE/SAGE stock, and all the other fixings to make it a super precision rifle.

As someone stated earlier, there is no "one size fits all" rifle, especially for someone like me, who likes military rifles.

Eitherway, thanks for all the advice again.
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Old September 26, 2009, 10:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
KChen986



I think, that SR420, by recommending a Norinco or Polytech was recommending them in the sense that, I can buy a nice, forged receiver rifle for cheap ($800), then upgrade it with a JAE/SAGE stock, and all the other fixings to make it a super precision rifle.
Yes, but you don't really need the modern stock.
A "well built" ChiCom M14 in a tight fitting synthetic USGI stock will do the job.
It can be done on a budget.




bhannah, your reply made me laugh... thanks
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Old September 26, 2009, 01:28 PM   #33
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SR420 your killing me....
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Old September 26, 2009, 01:59 PM   #34
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Quote:
bhannah

SR420 your killing me....
... with facts and logic.
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Old September 26, 2009, 02:15 PM   #35
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chi com m14

are you kidding me my first sniper rifle in the army was a m 21 max eff range is 800 yards no way is that rifle set up to fire at 1k. but back to the post . so what you are saying is rambo wants to hit a deer at 1k . # 1 no way to ensure a clean kill at that range #2 if you wound the deer no way to track it your 1k away over rought landscape #3 308 win dropes 25.7 m.o.a. at 1k most good scopes will only give you 10 m.o.a. of adjustment so you have to use a 20 m.o.a. base to rase the frount of the scope witch means you cant whitch ranges say a deer comes out at say 200 yards your hold under is about 6 feet . #4 a chim com m14 in a tight stock made by slave labor will not hols sub m.o.a. ( allso only made by poly tech norico never made them) #5 a bullet fired at 2500 fps ( thats 833 yards per sec.) and slowing down the while time takes 2 .68 sec to reach the target . so you have to aim where the deer will be at in 3 sec #6 you cant see a deer at 1k how do you know if its a buck or a doe or a rancher fixing his fence #7 who wants to drag a deer 1k so no its not a good rifle for deer or anything else at 1k . now for my rant the 1k shot is the new buzz now yes they have 1k matches but you are trying to hit the center of a 10 foot target witch is not to hard to see cause its big and white. the record is down to 5 inches or so whitch makes that guy a great marksmen with 10 of thousands in ammo and fifle and range time. and you realy think a guy with $ 850 and a store bought box of ammo will repeat
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Old September 26, 2009, 02:18 PM   #36
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Please let us know what you are shooting that m14 at, at that range.
Didn't see any optics on yours please don't say you can see a 10" plate at 1000 yards my gut already hurts to much.

A 175 gr will drop to -243 inches at 1000 yards that’s over 20 feet.
Barn (not barn door) accuracy with an m14 (chicom) out of the box?
Maybe with a match barrel and 12moa base and quality optics... you could hit the door....

Look I am not trying to bag on your m14 (great rifle) but come on man lets at least be a tad realistic here...

Sorry for hijacking the thread and to answer the OP yes a M1 will kill a deer but my ethics with hunting would limit my shot to 100yards max.

Last edited by bhannah; September 26, 2009 at 02:24 PM.
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Old September 26, 2009, 02:26 PM   #37
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You two crack me up!

Let's stop the hijack in its tracks and get back on topic.

Quote:
KChen986 Been looking to get a M1A for quite some time now, the look of the rifle, the heritage,
and the potential for eventually tuning it to make 1,000 yard shots make it an appealing rifle for me.
Quote:
SR420 With 1000 yard shots potentially in your future I suggest you find a nice, slightly used, all original Poly Tech or Norinco M14 for less
than $850.00. These rifles come standard with many desirable USGI M14 type features like chrome lined barrels and forged receivers.

It should make a fine hunting rifle as is. It will respond well to basic national
match accuracy mods and it's forged receiver, forged 1-piece op rod & trigger
group will come in handy when you build it out for 1000 yard sub moa accuracy.

Smith Enterprise, Inc. made this M21A5, it was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008.
The rifle fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo.
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Old September 26, 2009, 02:34 PM   #38
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sr420
How is that getting back on topic, your post has nothing to do with the OP's question.
And please..please...please tell us all what your m14 setup is. It sounds like something I would be interested in (but then again I have always been interested in magic tricks)

O.K i am done....
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Old September 26, 2009, 03:51 PM   #39
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Read what I have posted until it sinks in because what we've got here is...failure to communicate.

Why do you insist on ignoring what I suggested to the OP?


I'm certain that you don't care to know the build details on any of my M14s.







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Last edited by SR420; September 26, 2009 at 04:04 PM.
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Old September 26, 2009, 04:45 PM   #40
ranger dave
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ok

sr420 what range was it tested on at fort benning? and buy the way there is no such thing as a m21a5 the m21 was replaced in ist first model the a5 is sume bs sa came up with to sell them to the army it didnt work.
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Old September 26, 2009, 04:47 PM   #41
ranger dave
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to answer your question

yes a 308 will kill a deer . if you want to carry the weight . nad no a m 14 is not a 1k rifle
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Old September 26, 2009, 05:29 PM   #42
SR420
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The M14 can be a 1K rifle.

Quote:
ranger dave sr420 what range was it tested on at fort benning? and buy the way there is no such thing as a m21a5
Really... ??

http://www.smithenterprise.com/support05.03.html

Smith Enterprise’ Crazy Horse M21A5 7.62×51mm


Like I said... You two crack me up
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Last edited by SR420; September 26, 2009 at 05:36 PM.
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Old September 26, 2009, 08:27 PM   #43
Bart B.
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From Ranger Dave:
Quote:
#3 308 win dropes 25.7 m.o.a. at 1k most good scopes will only give you 10 m.o.a. of adjustment so you have to use a 20 m.o.a. base to rase the frount of the scope witch means you cant whitch ranges say a deer comes out at say 200 yards your hold under is about 6 feet . #5 a bullet fired at 2500 fps ( thats 833 yards per sec.) and slowing down the while time takes 2 .68 sec to reach the target . so you have to aim where the deer will be at in 3 sec now for my rant the 1k shot is the new buzz now yes they have 1k matches but you are trying to hit the center of a 10 foot target witch is not to hard to see cause its big and white.
RangerDave, you need to check your numbers for the .308's ballistics, modern scope adjustment ranges and high power rifle target sizes. Those you've mentioned are quite a bit off the mark.

A 180-gr. spitzer boattail bullet leaving a .308 Win. case drops about 440 inches or 44 MOA at 1000 yards and it takes about 1.7 seconds to get there. And even the service sights on M14's and 7.62 NATO converted M1's need about 46 clicks up from boresight (they're a tiny bit less than exactly 1 MOA per elevation click) to strike center with M118 match ammo on a 1000 yard NRA LR target whose size is 6 foot square (the old 10-foot wide military 'C' 1000 yard targets went away about 100 years ago).

Regarding the M1A's (or M14NM, whose receiver the M1A was copied from 'cause it doesn't accept the full auto adapter) ability to shoot well at 1000 yards, it (they) sure are capable. Best accuracy I know of from service team members and top civilians winning matches and setting records with them shooting handloaded ammo (new cases, not resized fired ones which are not good for accuracy) is about 8 to 9 inches at 1000 yards. 7.62 NATO converted Garands did as well; may be a bit better. But it takes the best barrels chambered and fit properly along with all the other parts being perfectly matched to the barreled receiver. And these rifle's have to be shot single load/fire for best accuracy; they change point of impact a bit as a full magazine starts getting empty. Just don't load more than 10 rounds in the magazine if you need to have several back up shots ready.

Last edited by Bart B.; September 27, 2009 at 11:37 AM.
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Old September 27, 2009, 02:44 PM   #44
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All my rifles are hunting rifles, they're also my range rifles and shtf rifles. They may not excel at one thing perfectly, but they are capable at most things I use them for. They are an M1A, an M1 Garand and an SLR-95. They are heavier than their sporting rifle cousins, but I just accept it and adapt.
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Old September 27, 2009, 04:57 PM   #45
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Some folks are mixing up target shooting and hunting. The OP (although an eternity ago) was asking about hunting. Yes, despite what some folks are saying, an accurized M14 is certainly capable of target work at 1km, a la high power competitions et al, but no one in their right mind is going to be trying to shoot a deer from 1km

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Old September 27, 2009, 05:36 PM   #46
Bart B.
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Jason comments.....
Quote:
but no one in their right mind is going to be trying to shoot a deer from 1km
Don't know if these folks are in their right mind, but they tout their 1K yard plus shots at game animals on http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ and http://www.precisionlongrangehunter....ubbthreads.php.

It's common practice for two folks to be at a vantage point both checking for game, then when it's seen, they get ready. The shooter takes his scoped 20 pound bench gun chambered for a souped up .338 magnum, places it on bags atop a portable bench while the other guy sets up the spotting scope. One shot's fired at a rock near the game then the spotter gives corrections to the shooter until the rock's hit a time or two. Then the sights are put on the animal and the shot's fired.

Much celebration goes on at the kill site as well as the web site. Back patting and other kudos abound as these guys are so proud of their rifle building, ammo making and shooting skills.
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Old September 27, 2009, 07:14 PM   #47
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Not much of a 1000 yd rifle; maybe 750-800.
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Old September 27, 2009, 07:36 PM   #48
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A M1 is fairly accurate (if worked on) out to 400 to 500 yards.

Most hunters (not range shooters) don't take shots longer than that out of respect for the game you're shooting at.
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Old September 27, 2009, 08:29 PM   #49
edward hogan
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There are still more than a few who shoot M14/M1a in Service Rifle competition. At 600yds the 168 or 175 gr bullet will buck the wind very advantageously. The M14/Garand sights are among the best issue sights on any military rifle. Great for hunting.

When I decided to scope my M1a I just didn't care for the results. I changed to an AR-10 for better ergonomics, and found the rifles are more advanced in many ways.

If you want to shoot a .308win at 1000yds, study up on the Palma competition and the specialized gear used there. 150/155gr bullets at 2900fps from 28-30" barrels is what it takes, from the stoutest powder charges.

If you really want to shoot 1000yds the 260rem is about the Best Bet in a standard cartridge, maybe .243 with a 7 or 8 twist barrel.

DPMS might still chamber their AR-10 in .260rem; if you want a semi-auto. There are a lot of 6mm and 6.5mm shooters using the AR-15 platform out to 1000yds. Look at a Satern barreled 6.5grendel or a 6mmAR Turbo. See what guys are shooting in F-class.

1000yd shooting with any .308 is iffy. 750-800/900 yds maybe. Would really need perfect conditions and a lot of luck to hit at 1000 repeatedly. That's why the Army is reconfiguring their sniper rifles to .300win these days; to gain accuracy and consistency at greater distance.

My perspective is that if you really want to learn how to shoot, try a Service Rifle match or two. If you can score well there and learn to call the wind, you know about the practical limits of marksmanship. An M1a will sure work in that venue if you can work it.
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Old September 28, 2009, 07:27 AM   #50
Bart B.
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Ed Hogan sez....
Quote:
1000yd shooting with any .308 is iffy. 750-800/900 yds maybe. Would really need perfect conditions and a lot of luck to hit at 1000 repeatedly. That's why the Army is reconfiguring their sniper rifles to .300win these days; to gain accuracy and consistency at greater distance.
I disagree with needing perfect conditions and a lot of luck to hit at 1000 repeatedly. All you need is accurate rifles and ammo as well as the skills and knowledge to dope the wind and get shots off repeatably. Luck is for Las Vegas.

I also disagree with the accuracy improvements a 30 caliber magnum has over the .308 Win. Having shot both in many 1000 yard matches wearing out a few barrels in each, the .308's shoot just as accurate as the 300's. And they're easier to shoot accurate due to less recoil while the bullet's going down the barrel. Palma rifles shooting the .308 Win. are just as accurate as 300 magnums in benchrest or sniper rifles. The best of both will stay inside 5 to 6 inches at 1000 yards all day long.

The big 300's do buck the wind about 15% better, but many folks will take the .308's to the 1000 yard line because they'll score higher with it than the magnums. There's a lot of .300 magnum rifle movement in recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel. Keeping it the same for each shot ain't easy when you've got to come out of position somewhat to reload.
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