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Old June 26, 2008, 05:13 AM   #1
CowTowner
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Full Power 10mm Loads

I just bought a 10mm Auto EAA Witness. I've already replaced the recoil spring to a 20# version.
I see Double Tap and TAC ammo running very expensive and very hot.
I have yet to find load data that comes close to their advertised fps or power for a 180 Grain bullet. I have been told by some of the guys I work with at the range that these are 10mm Full Power loads and none of the new manuals will provide info on duplicating them.
So, do the current manuals have the correct data? Or are we getting less than what was actually designed to be 10mm Auto loads?
If the latter, then where would I find the real deal?
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Old June 26, 2008, 06:17 AM   #2
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Cowtowner,

I have a bunch of manuals, old and new. Tell me what velocity are you looking for, and from what barrel length, and I will see what I have that might help.

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Old June 26, 2008, 08:18 AM   #3
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I have an Accurate powders guide from '92 that is slightly heavier/hotter than their current version, but not by much.

And I'm not sure what TAC is referring to, but there are a couple things to keep in mind when looking at Double Tap ammo and it's performance: First, remember that Double Tap isn't an ammo company that makes 10mm and other calibers. Rather, Double Tap is a 10mm ammo company and they just so happen to make some other calibers as well. Mike McNett is a 10mm guy and he's put years of effort in to building and testing his loads. The other thing to keep in mind is that he uses blended and non-standard powder to get the performance that we may not typically be able to duplicate at our bench without access to the same powder.

I agree with SL1 that the best we can do to help is hear some bullets weights, styles and velocity and dig through whatever guides we have and try to offer some data.

Lastly, and this may not be the place for this... but the EAA Witness 10mm is starting to build a bit of an "internet reputation" for better or worse. (well, for worse) As it is internet chatter, I won't sit here and profess that it's the God's honest truth, but FWIW, there are two 10mm pistols that I personally would not hot rod: Any Glock without an aftermarket barrel with full chamber support, and the EAA Witness.
http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=8427
Hey, if nothing else I've given you a link to a terrific forum for discussing all things 10mm.

I love the 10, but it's a high octane caliber that has been battering pistols since the original Delta Elite.
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Old June 26, 2008, 10:10 AM   #4
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Here we go........

Quote:
I have a bunch of manuals, old and new. Tell me what velocity are you looking for, and from what barrel length, and I will see what I have that might help.
Barrel length is a Full Size which means 4.5 inches.
Looking for around the 1350 fps mark. My manuals show 1220 to 1250 fps using either Blue Dot or Power Pistol.

Quote:
but FWIW, there are two 10mm pistols that I personally would not hot rod: Any Glock without an aftermarket barrel with full chamber support, and the EAA Witness.
I don't think I want it to be a hot rod. More like I want to see what the gun was supposed to be when it's ammo was originally spec'd.
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Old June 26, 2008, 04:05 PM   #5
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I have a Witness 10mm. Its the full sized, all steel model. For concealed carry I use 180 gr Federal Hydra shoks. The rest of the time I shoot a handload using Sierra's 190 gr FPJ. Alliant's site provides a recipe for that bullet using Power Pistol which gives (their data) 1200 fps at 35,900 psi. I can attest that it feels much snappier than the Federal factory ammo, when you reach that level, but nowhere near what I consider uncomfortable or difficult to control. Thats my opinion, others may differ since feel is a totally subjective thing. I'm scheduled to use a friend's chronograph sometime in the upcoming weeks, I'll let you know my results for that load if you're interested.
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Old June 26, 2008, 04:18 PM   #6
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DT isn't the only game in town. Buffalo Bore makes some mighty fine 10mm ammunition that according to at least one chrono report thread on Glocktalk, BB ammo comes closer to advertised velocities than dt's almost unbelieveably high advertised velocity claims.

Buffalo Bore > double tap
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Old June 26, 2008, 08:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
I'll let you know my results for that load if you're interested.
I am very interested to see what the load does. I'm sure a few others around here may be as well.

Here's what I currently have to begin loading with:
500 pcs new Starline brass.
Winchester WLP primers
1,000 180 Grain TCFM Zero Bullets.
1# of Blue Dot

If there's a powder that produces better than what I have or Power Pistol in this cartridge, that's the info I'm really looking for.
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Old June 26, 2008, 08:42 PM   #8
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Try some SR 4756 and 800X, or AA #5 and #7. I had some loads with WW 630, but you won't be able to find any; it's been out of production for a LONG time.
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Old June 26, 2008, 08:47 PM   #9
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Cowtowner,

I'm not finding anything that hot. The hottest I have found are;

Speer Manual #14 180 gr TMJ FN or GDHP:
Max load = 11.0 gr Blue Dot for 1295 fps from 5" barrel

Accurate Manual #2 180 Speer JHP:
Max load = 14.5 gr No.9 for 1290 fps from 5" barrel (32,600 psi)

Accurate Manual #2 180 Hornady XTP:
Max load = 13.5 gr No.9 for 1242 fps from 5" barrel (34,100 psi)

Accurate Manual #2 180 Ranier Plated HP:
Max load = 13.5 gr No.9 for 1235 fps from 5" barrel (35,500 psi)

Strangly , the Speer manual does not list AA No.9 for 180 gran bullets, but does for some of its lighter bullets in 10mm.

Of course, start loads are about 10% less for each. As you can see, bullet design makes a difference in max loads and pressures, so be careful with substituting Zero bullets.

Good luck with finding a good load.

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Old June 26, 2008, 11:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
I am very interested to see what the load does. I'm sure a few others around here may be as well.

Here's what I currently have to begin loading with:
500 pcs new Starline brass.
Winchester WLP primers
1,000 180 Grain TCFM Zero Bullets.
1# of Blue Dot

If there's a powder that produces better than what I have or Power Pistol in this cartridge, that's the info I'm really looking for.
What you have is just fine. Start with a reloading book and make a few rounds and shoot them. I use Blue Dot and Rose bullets all the time. I mostly use Winchester primers but will use CCI Mag primers when I need a even burn on my heavy loads.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:41 AM   #11
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"gone but not forgotten"

Forget internet rumors; here's a fact: "full power 10mm" is what you can currently buy or find data for.
Fact.

IF you are willing to risk your gun and safety --fact, too-- contact me direct.

WESHOOT2@aol.com
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Old June 27, 2008, 12:55 PM   #12
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SL1 - You found what I have found. Looks like I'll be starting with 10 Gr of Blue Dot and working up.

WESHOOT2 - I'm not willing to do either, but I do appreciate the opportunity.
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Old June 27, 2008, 06:08 PM   #13
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AA#9 and IMR 800-X are Your Best Options

Come over to 10mmtalk.com or glocktalk.com and you'll find a wealth of information about high test 10mm loads.

As of 2004, IMR recommended 9.7 grains of 800-X under a 180 grain bullet. Out of a 5" barrel this hit 1320 fps and generated 34,200 psi. Remember SAAMI max in the 10mm is 37,000 psi. I have loaded this at 10 grains with no signs of pressure, but my 1911 does have a fully-supported barrel.

800-X is hard to work with because it meters so poorly, but when I am loading for deer hunting, it is what I use.
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Old June 29, 2008, 08:55 AM   #14
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ah, memories (supplemented by my Lyman Data Logs....)

800X for lighter bullets; Blue Dot for 165g and up.
Test with both primer types.

"9.7g @ 34.2K"; uh-oh LOL.

(I say "uh-oh" because I have exceeded that by a 'bit'....)
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Old July 1, 2008, 07:49 PM   #15
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Just a comment. The Witness 10mm is a tank of a gun. I have pushed mine far harder then I ever expected it to take. When I bought mine it was only $285 with 5 magazines, so several times I tried to see how hard I could push a 10mm bullet and if I broke the gun so be it. My experience is the witness will take more then I was willing to hold in my hand and press the trigger.

You can take it to "nuclear" power levels if you want. Hot just does not describe it.

By the way, don't expect to ever see your brass again. At this level of power, the brass itself is a reasonable projectile.
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Old July 1, 2008, 09:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
By the way, don't expect to ever see your brass again. At this level of power, the brass itself is a reasonable projectile.
I found it hard to find with my test fires Saturday. 10.4 grains of Blue Dot, WLP and 180 Grain TCFM Zero Bullets. Oh, and an 18# Wolfe recoil spring.
I lost enough to scratch my head more than once.
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Old July 2, 2008, 12:38 AM   #17
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CT,
I think about 8.5 grains of Power Pistol will get you closer to where you wanna be than anything you can load with Blue Dot. HTH
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Old July 2, 2008, 08:12 AM   #18
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Hodgdon shows 1287 fps with a 180 grain bullet using Longshot.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
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Old July 3, 2008, 07:21 AM   #19
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actual

Power Pistol and Longshot never got me anywhere near what 800X, Blue Dot, and AA9 could do......

......and don't ignore N350.
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Old July 3, 2008, 08:28 AM   #20
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A decent 180gr at 1300fps or 200gr at 1200fps (Norma spec) is plenty. The extra 50fps you might get doesn't mean anything beyond mentioning. The target, animal, or criminal won't tell the difference.
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Old July 5, 2008, 09:59 PM   #21
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Many thanks to all. I now have lots of roads to test drive.

BTW, the gun hasn't broken yet.
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Old July 6, 2008, 09:56 AM   #22
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heads-up

The current issue of Handloader has an in-depth 10mm article (oddly, 'they' like N350, too).
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Old July 6, 2008, 11:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
BTW, the gun hasn't broken yet.
Just to clarify, I wasn't campaigning against it or rooting for it to break, just that I've read here & there of trouble. I'd love to see someone just throw all kinds of hell at them and prove it to be a rock-solid piece. The price, the looks, all of it together in that package and again, at that price? I want one. So I'd love to see them build a reputation opposite of the one that I've read.
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Old July 6, 2008, 12:04 PM   #24
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.



10mm Book load:
7.8gr "Hi-Skor" 800X, 200 gr1130fps 32500 psi

10mm Full load:
14.2 gr., 800X, 200 gr. .658", G20 Barsto barrel, small case bulge, must stop work up

40sw book load:
6.3 gr "Hi-Shor"800-X, Speer 200 gr. FMJ, 925 fps,

40sw FULL LOAD:
15.5 gr. 800X, 200 gr 1.171", G22 barrel with welded up feed ramp and re cut, no more powder will fit, even with double compression, horrific recoil

44 mag book load:
15.5 gr 800X 200 gr 1.610", 1600 fps, 39,800 cup
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Old July 6, 2008, 12:09 PM   #25
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Thanks, Clark

Whenever I see your name I automatically hit "Save".

Got any 10mm 3N37 and WAP data?
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