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Old June 25, 2008, 04:53 PM   #1
HKFan9
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Help a Newbie - Cap n Ball

I own a lot more hunting rifles and shotguns than I do pistols in general, and out of that the only Revolver I own is a SW m60 snub nose. I also loved the way the old Colts looked but being a college student I can't afford one. I stumbled onto this on Buds and was interested in how they were.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/39417

The price seems really cheap, and I do want a shooter I can have some fun at the range with, not a safe queen. I was also wondering since I never really used a black powder gun before (I have fired one) what components and everything I would need for this pistol. I.E. some cheap target bullets, I'm assuming ignition caps, powder ect.. Any information on how exactly these work would be great really. This seems like a gun that would be fun to take to the range when I'm bored with all the semi-autos, so if any of you own one, please share any info.
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Old June 25, 2008, 07:53 PM   #2
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I have never shot one but I have handled one. There good guns. Any of the Italian built cap and ball revolvers are good shooters.
Personally I prefer the newer version with round barrel and more graceful lines and fluted cylinders like the 1860 army or 61 navy.
My only suggestion is that at $200 it seems a little pricy. Go to a gun show near where you live. There are always good (and better) prices and you can find one you might like better.
Just remember read the instructions for loading. Multiple chambers firing are a possibility if you don’t grease the chambers and that’s one thing you don’t want to experience.
I would also suggest you ask the same question in the black powder section of this forum, you might get more answers.
I have been shooting C&B for over 30 years and I have 12 in my collection. From little 32 cal to Dragoons. Several, I have matched pairs.
If you want to look at high end C&P or all the different models, go here.



http://www.uberti.com/
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Old June 25, 2008, 08:03 PM   #3
Hawg
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Cabela's has the same gun for 139.99. It's not historically correct tho. Colt never made a 51 navy in .44, that's a fantasy gun dreamed up by Pietta. IMHO you'll be happier with a steel frame.
Drop down to the black powder forum and read the sticky and peruse the threads there. You'll find a lot of useful information and more folks that are knowledgeable about bp guns.
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Old June 25, 2008, 08:51 PM   #4
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BP guns are a lot of work for a little shooting. Also they are high maintenance and need to be meticulously cleaned after every use. Otherwise they rust to pieces. That said, I've had a lot of fun shooting them years ago when I was too young to buy a centerfire gun. They're fun but are a lot of work.
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Old June 26, 2008, 12:02 AM   #5
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Quote:
BP guns are a lot of work for a little shooting. Also they are high maintenance and need to be meticulously cleaned after every use. Otherwise they rust to pieces. That said, I've had a lot of fun shooting them years ago when I was too young to buy a centerfire gun. They're fun but are a lot of work.
I couldnt disagree more. Modern percussion caps arent as toxic as they were in times past, so meticulous cleaning after every use isn't required. Quick cleaning with modern BP solvents, simple green, moose milk (Balistol & water) or just plain dawn dishwashing soap and water is all you need to do. My normal cleaning regimine after a match is to spray the pistol down with balistol & let it work on the fouling for up to a week. Then, wipe down the surfaces, patch the barrel, clean the nipples and chambers. After all the fouling has been removed, lube with balistol, grease the arbor with bore butter, then reassemble. Takes maybe 20 min per pistol. It takes a lot longer, using more patches & brushes on my smokeless guns.

Cabelas is a good place to get started. A steel framed pistol with a starter kit is an inexpensive way to get started.

I'll second Hawg's suggestion about perusing the BP threads. here are a few other good references sources:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...oard,19.0.html
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?board=18.0
http://www.jspublications.net/tips/BPLoading.pdf
http://www.curtrich.com/frontiersmen.html
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Old June 26, 2008, 12:10 AM   #6
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Thx for all the info so far, wasn't really sure where to post this so i went with revolvers but the mod moved it I believe Even if the guns do need a lot of cleaning and care I love that. I can't think of anything more relaxing than cleaning my guns. I did look around and noticed the price was high compared to other sources. I understand they might take awhile to prepare to shoot, but I'm looking for something like that, I like to go to the range for extended periods of time, but can only afford so much 9mm, .38spl, and rifle ammo.
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Old June 26, 2008, 03:52 AM   #7
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Quote:
BP guns are a lot of work for a little shooting. Also they are high maintenance and need to be meticulously cleaned after every use. Otherwise they rust to pieces.
Total B.S.

I use Pyrodex which is supposedly more corrosive than bp and I frequently go two or three days without cleaning and have gone as many as nine. I also live in the humid South. No rust or corrosion.
I only tear mine completely down maybe once a year.
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Old June 26, 2008, 04:31 AM   #8
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Well not total

Quote:
Total B.S.
Quote:
BP guns are a lot of work for a little shooting. Also they are high maintenance and need to be meticulously cleaned after every use. Otherwise they rust to pieces.

It ain't exactly Rocket Science, but 's kinda. I can say that I clean my Revs if I shoot 6, or 60 rounds, or or 200 in each Rev on a given day. I figure it like brushin' my teeth after dessert...as long as i'm not too tired. I clean um up that day, and ifin I had shot so many I din't get the Boltspring, bolt, trigger, hammer, pawl(hand), hammer and cones remove that day. I'd do it the next day for sure. My Uncle Sam taught me like that and I'm still here to tell ya.
It's a little work if you want um clean and to last but worth it for the fun you have and they work like a Swiss Clock.

Anyway...how ever you wanna see it I guess. This is only how I like to do it.

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Old June 26, 2008, 06:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Colt never made a 51 navy in .44,
Not exactly true. I went to the Colt Collections at the Hartford, CT State Library last summer and they had a bunch of prototypes that Colt designed but never mass produced. One of them was a .44 caliber revolver with the octagonal barrel and the hinged loading lever of the 1851 Navy. They even had a Dragoon with a top strap (full framed like a Remington).
If you're ever in the Hartford, CT area, check out this collection. It's free to the public.
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Old June 26, 2008, 07:37 AM   #10
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if you check around some you'll find a better price than that. they are some work to clean but don't let that put ya off of 'em, lots of fun! I use windsheild washer fluid in a spray bottle to soak mine with - be liberal in spraying on. let it soak and repeat than take down and scrub, rinse w/hot water and dry then spray with ballistol or similar. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE PROPER SIZE CAPS. to avoid flash-over chainfires.
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Old June 26, 2008, 09:33 AM   #11
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For more than 26 years I'ved enjoyed shooting C&B revolvers & the pleasure of shooting them is by far more than I have with any of my more modern semi autos or revolvers, & cleaning has always been short & sweet.

After shooting I simply keep Balistol in a spray bottle to spray over & into the weapon to soak, when I get home I remove the cylinder & the nipples, the wood grip's & place all the metal parts into a 5 gallon bucket of Hot soapy water clean the bore, chambers & nipples of fouling & spray the internals "through the opening of the grip area" & then lube as usual, reassemble & I'm done.

About once every 6-9 months I may total strip my pieces but in the 26 years I've never had any issues from my cleaning method but as with any mechanical device I have had some minor part failures that is to be expected from thousands of shots from these fine weapons by design.
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Old June 26, 2008, 01:35 PM   #12
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Yep total.

Quote:
It ain't exactly Rocket Science, but 's kinda. I can say that I clean my Revs if I shoot 6, or 60 rounds, or or 200 in each Rev on a given day. I figure it like brushin' my teeth after dessert...as long as i'm not too tired. I clean um up that day, and ifin I had shot so many I din't get the Boltspring, bolt, trigger, hammer, pawl(hand), hammer and cones remove that day. I'd do it the next day for sure. My Uncle Sam taught me like that and I'm still here to tell ya.
It's a little work if you want um clean and to last but worth it for the fun you have and they work like a Swiss Clock.

Anyway...how ever you wanna see it I guess. This is only how I like to do it.
It's not going to hurt anything except to wear out the screws but it's not necessary. My guns look(except for the one I antiqued) and function like new. I pretty much do mine like Raider. Just remove the grips and cylinder. All metal parts go into hot soapy water. Bore and chambers get patch cleaned and the internals get sprayed out with WD-40 to displace water and then lubed. Reassemble and wipe down with oil. I can tear down any one of mine right now and the internal parts will be bright and shiny with no fouling residue or rust anywhere.
I fired one with 40 grs. of Pyrodex and let it sit for nine days and it didn't rust. The chambers and bore started to show a white film like lead oxidation at the end of nine days so I went ahead and cleaned it.
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Old June 26, 2008, 04:14 PM   #13
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The price is high for a brass framed '51. I bought a steel framed one for $165.00 new from the Possibles Shop http://www.possibleshop.com/cap-ball-closeout.htm
A new brass framed '51 is $140.00 or a better gun for the beginner is an 1868 Remington is $200.00 at Cabelas. I wouldn't buy the one from Bud's.
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Old June 26, 2008, 04:29 PM   #14
Hawg
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Quote:
Not exactly true. I went to the Colt Collections at the Hartford, CT State Library last summer and they had a bunch of prototypes that Colt designed but never mass produced.
Prototypes don't count. Chevy made a few prototypes of the Jeep for the government trials too but how many have heard of them much less seen one? I have.
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Old June 26, 2008, 06:59 PM   #15
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I recall that prototype had an 8" barrel - it could just as well be called an 1860 Army with an octagonal barrel rather than an 1851 Navy in .44 cal.

We can certainly say Colt never PRODUCED an 1851 Navy in .44 cal, if that makes anyone feel better.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:44 AM   #16
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The prototypes were patented so you cannot say Colt never made a Navy in .44. Maybe calling it a Navy, a term that was basically a marketing tool, is not correct. I'd say a revolver with an octagonal barrel and hinged loading lever in .44 was a natural progression from the .44 Dragoon to the 1851 .36 Navy, then back up to the 1860 .44.
I've seen them so you can't tell me they didn't exist. How many were made we can't tell - the records burned with the factory in the early 1860s.
Is Pietta overly concerned with historical accuracy? Not from what I've seen. I used to be anti-Pietta when it came to some of their models, but I'm in the mindset now that if it's fun and functional, it' legitimate. It's like the Ruger Old Army, a revolver that draws its design from several guns, a revolver that has no real historical accuracy, but probably the best black powder revolver ever made.
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Old June 27, 2008, 03:52 PM   #17
Hawg
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Quote:
a revolver that has no real historical accuracy
If it's not reasonably historically accurate I want no part of it. I realize there are some who don't care but I'm not one of them and I'm not alone.
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Old June 27, 2008, 04:08 PM   #18
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What do you guys think about this.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...817&hasJS=true

I know a lot of people said get a steel frame but i really like the way the Brass looks, don't ask me why. As far as being accurate historically I'm not worried about it. I just want a simple shooter I like the looks and price of, maybe when I'm out of college and working full time I'll invest is a Colt, but for now, I just like supporting my 2nd amendment right and having good fun being a responsible person weather the Liberal media agrees or not.

Another question I had was how much do Caps and Powder usually run, I'm at my college house now so cant get to my local shop to check it out myself because its 3 hours away. Is it cheaper to shoot than center fire rounds, more expensive, about par?
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Old June 27, 2008, 08:59 PM   #19
pohill
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Brass framed guns, especially .44, take a beating over time, especially if it's your only gun. I'd suggest getting the same gun in .36 if you like the brass - just don't use large loads. Plus, .36 will save you lead and powder. Caps and powder might be a problem if you're at a school. You can order powder online but most places require a purchase of at least 5 lbs. Caps can be expensive with shipping and handling charges, too.
What state are you in?

Oh yeah - Cabelas went too far with that one - even the South didn't make a .44 in brass that I know of. They made the Spiller & Burr and the Griswold & Gunnison in brass, both in .36 caliber.
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Old June 27, 2008, 09:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg Haggen
If it's not reasonably historically accurate I want no part of it. I realize there are some who don't care but I'm not one of them and I'm not alone.
Iagree with you HH but only that it isn't for me, the Ruger Old Army was not a Historically accurate weapon except that it used a cap & ball system, even though it is a fine weapon in it's own right it has no place in my gun locker because it is only a modern representation of a weapon that is only playing to be a C&B revolver.

Now as far as the brass framed revolver that you like from Cabelas, Pohill I think you mean Pietta not Cabelas because that is who make 98% of the C&B revolvers for Cabelas but for the most part you are correct that Colt did in fact not make a 1851 Navy in a brass frame & especially not in .44 caliber but I think I had seen one variant that was manufactured during the War of Northern Aggression that was similar to the Colt 51 with a Brass frame from one of the many facilities in the south.

Now to the OP:

If you are stuck in getting a Brass framed C&B revolver please keep the loads around 20gr. max of FFFG gun powder to keep the weapon around for some time because after a while the brass will tend to stretch & fatigue from normal use of full house loads.

Also being in college, please I hope that you are living in off campus quarters because there may be some rules against firearms possession while on the campus property.
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Old June 27, 2008, 09:49 PM   #21
Hawg
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Quote:
I think I had seen one variant that was manufactured during the War of Northern Aggression that was similar to the Colt 51 with a Brass frame from one of the many facilities in the south.
"Most" Southern guns were brass framed and based on the 51 Navy and in .36 not .44.
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Old June 27, 2008, 10:07 PM   #22
pohill
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Quote:
I think you mean Pietta not Cabelas
Nope, I meant Cabelas because they do the advertizing. Pietta made the gun, not the ad that said it was a Confederate gun based on the 1851 Navy.
As far as a Ruger Old Army playing to be a C&B revolver...now that really puzzles me. But, to each his own. I was very against Rugers until I got one.
The South copied the Whitney to make the Spiller & Burr in brass, they copied the Colt 1851 Navy to make the Griswold & Gunnison in brass with a round barrel. And I'm sure there were others.
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Old June 27, 2008, 11:47 PM   #23
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It's not going to hurt anything except to wear out the screws but it's not necessary
It's necessary to me and turnin screws on Revs don't wear um out. People who can't use a screwdriver and strip the heads do wear um out. Letting a dirty gun lay can hurt a Rev...you mentioned lead starting to oxidize? How long do you think it takes BP once fired in an non-seasoned barrel, cylinder, or cones to have a reaction to the residue(it has about a 24 hour reaction & it starts). And then you have the left over residue all over the rest of the Rev. They ain't like Long Gun/Smokepoles. Oxidation starts when a chemical, be it gunpowder residue, a sodium from sweat off our brow, or white vinegar on steel. Well That and that the M-16 I carried allow me to feel the necessity to clean um when I'm done. Works for me.

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Old June 29, 2008, 07:02 PM   #24
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Yes I do live off campus, obviously I would never bring a firearm near it. The only gun I keep in my house at school (my house is in the town I walk to class) is my PM-9 for conceal carry when I walk somewhere at night. My g/f doesn't live in a nice part of town, and she maybe weighs 100 pounds so I keep one of my CCW guns down here in case we walk to her place (also she doesn't live on campus)

I don't know why I like the brass frame more but maybe I will get steel to be on the safe side. I'm torn between buying one of these or a Ruger Mark II .22 at the moment. Decisions Decisions I think we Americans are spoiled, we get to many choices.
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Old June 29, 2008, 10:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Another question I had was how much do Caps and Powder usually run, I'm at my college house now so cant get to my local shop to check it out myself because its 3 hours away. Is it cheaper to shoot than center fire rounds, more expensive, about par?
1 lb. of powder equals 7000 grains of powder. If you load 25 grains per shot, that's about 280 shots from 1 lb. of powder.
At $20 per lb., the cost would be .07 cents per shot.

Round balls cost about $9 per 100 or .09 cents each.

Percussion caps cost about .04 -.05 cents each.

Then most people use some Bore Butter or Crisco over the loaded balls, or lube pills under the balls. Some use bore button wool wads (at .08 - .10 cents each).
There's also the cost of cleaning & loading accessories, wrench, nipples, nipple pick, flask, capper, measure etc...
You're looking at a minimum of about .20 cents a shot which isn't much different than shooting a 9mm or even a .45 ACP.
I know that some will say that powder is cheaper, but I'm talking about the average price of powder, whether it's 777, Pyrodex or real BP. BP costs well over $20 per lb. around here, and so does 777. APP is $18 - $20+. Maybe $2 can be saved by buying Pyrodex, but you need gas to drive around buying the stuff.
Sure you can cast your own round balls, but that's another investment cost too.
Don't blame the messenger for saying this, but on average BP pistols usually require more replacement parts than smokeless guns do which is another expense. Plus their resale and trade in values do go down more than a Ruger MK III's would, especially a brass frame model. The back of the brass frame gets battered due to the cylinder hitting it from the recoil of each shot and the brass shows more wear over time.

On the other hand, one round of Federal .22 bulk ammo from Walmart costs about 2.5 cents. Shooting one 10 round magazine costs .25 cents, and shooting 10 full magazines per hour costs $2.50 per hour.
That same $2.50 is equal to shooting about 2 full cylinders out of a .44 C&B revolver or about 12 shots worth.

Last edited by arcticap; June 30, 2008 at 12:38 PM.
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