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Old June 21, 2008, 09:38 PM   #1
Oquirrh
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Colt Navy woes

Took two revolvers to the range for a long session, the Pietta '58 Remington and the .36 Pietta Colt Navy.

The Remington badly needs new nipples, but I've got it shooting close to POA and it's grouping nicely.

But the 51 Navy drove me nuts. Lots and lots of misfires. The nipples look good -- stainless -- but they seem to be between a #10 CCI and 11 RWS cap. One doesn't go on far enough and the other falls off. It got to the point that I was going around once snapping to set the caps, then a second time to fire.

The biggest problem is that after shooting one cylinder the hammer starts to bind against the frame--two cylinders, and I have to push the hammer to full forward with my thumb so I can cock it back again. There is almost no tolerance even before the crud starts building up. I put a piece of leather under the hammer spring to make is smack harder. Would it be a good idea to dremel the frame wider a bit where the hammer slides through?

Not surprising with all the fooling with caps that accuracy sucked, groups the size of ur hand.

When I tore the Navy down to clean it, I couldn't get the barrel off. After soaking it I finally was able to carefully twist it off--I think the wedge slot was peened from recoil (?) Now the wedge is very loose.
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Old June 21, 2008, 10:31 PM   #2
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I wouldn't dremel the frame, I'd stone the hammer a little bit and I mean LITTLE BIT, just enough to remove burrs. Try some different brand caps, no two brands are the exact same size. If they fit tight use a wooden dowel or ease the hammer down on them and use it to seat them fully. Or pinch fit loose caps, misfires should stop with fully seated caps. A Colt barrel shouldn't twist until it clears the alignment pins. Did you try using the ram to pry it off? Recoil shouldn't have had any effect on the wedge pin slot. If it's loose you need a new wedge.
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Old June 21, 2008, 10:45 PM   #3
Fingers McGee
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Hawg beat me to it. What he said, except, the part about pinching the caps for them to stay on and using the hammer to seat tight fitting ones. In each case IMHO you're asking for trouble from an AD or chain fire.

Treso nipples and #10 Remingtons will solve the cap problem. I dont like, and wont use CCI caps. RWS 1075s work on Treso's also.

Put the dremel tool down and back away from it. Stoning of the hammer to remove any burrs or stoning the notch in the frame should be all that's required. In an extreme case, you might have to take a diamond file to the frame - but that's prpbably a rare occurrance.

You dont say whether this is a used Pietta or not and if it's a brass or steel frame. I'm gonna assume for the sake of arguements that its a well used one. You may have to do some stoning to the arbor to fix the tight fitting barrel - again, it may just be a burr or ding.
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Old June 22, 2008, 12:14 AM   #4
Oquirrh
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Thanks

It's a used but well cared for Navy. Steel frame, pietta. Seems very tight.

As for the barrel separation issue, it slid apart and hung where the front edge of the slot in the arbor met the rear end of the slot in the frame. Thus it was was way past the pins when I gave it a careful twist--i think the friction polished off a burr or some powder gooch. Before I reassembled the gun, I polished the arbor with some fine metal polish.

I've already emailed Track o' da Wolf and will get the nipples ASAP. Black powder caps are hard to find around here. When I switch to Tresos it'll help because 1075 rws are the most plentiful.

Don't get me wrong, it's actually a fun project.

I just ordered some parts for another revolver, wish I had added a wedge to the shipment.
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Old June 22, 2008, 01:03 AM   #5
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Oquirrh, what Powder did you use and how much in the Pietta '51?
Caps go to #10 or11 Rems and try that, or fibnger and thumb squeeze the RSW or CCI11. Dowel or hammer seat the #10(using a stick, or you kinda hammer seated already, but you place the hammer gently on the cap and push the hammer forward, pointed in a safe direction.)

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Old June 22, 2008, 06:06 AM   #6
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Percussion caps are impact (shock), not force sensitive, so pinching them or pushing them on with a dowel or the hammer is not unsafe. The danger with the hammer, of course, is that it will slip and impact the cap, so be sure you have control of it and the gun is pointing downrange when letting it down.

Cap and nipple sizes are a bit of a crap shoot. I've measured both CCI sizes, both Remington sizes and the RWS caps and found they bear no resemblance to each other, nor is there any consistency from batch to batch. Treso nipples, and other brands as well, seem to be generally consistent within a given size; I have, however, received two different batches of Tresos that were packaged with the same part number but very different in length - perhaps just a production slipup.

I would definitely change to Treso nipples, but caps are going to be the variable. All you can do is just try different sizes and brands until you find some that work, and hope that the next batch is the same size. It might help to buy in bulk once you find the right combination.

Here are the numbers; the first is the inside diameter at the opening in inches, the second is the overall height in inches, average of more than 20 examples of each:

CCI 10: 0.160 0.160
CCI 11: 0.166 0.162
Rem 10: 0.167 0.168
Rem 11: 0.166 0.145
RWS 1075: 0.165 0.154

I should mention that the inside diameter is very difficult to measure consistently, so there's probably a 0.002 error, and others have attempted to duplicate those numbers without much success (hence my comments about batch consistency).

Finally, every Treso nipple I've measured (and that's dozens) had a diameter of 0.160 inches at the tip, suggesting that anything but a CCI #10 should fit...
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Old June 22, 2008, 07:23 AM   #7
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Glad to hear...

...I wan't beyond the pale of safety when I resorted to using a pencil to seat the caps [and even that didn't work with the CCIs]. Using the hammer to seat sounds scary, but I guess an accidental discharge through the barrel pointed downrange is preferrable to a AD out the cylinder in the loading position!

I worked on the Navy and will take it out again today even though I haven't gotten treso nipples yet. Here's the issues remaining:

1. The wedge is barely finger tight, should I give it a tap with a SMALL brass hammer?

2. The lack of accuracy bothers me. I keep hearing about clover leafs at 25y with others navys. Either that BS (on this forum! nah.) or i got issues with this piece.

BTW, i tried an assortment of powders with the Navy. Kik bp fffg, Triple7, and pyro (can't get Go-Ex around here). The loads were in the 20 to 25 grain range. I did do a cylinder of 26 grains of Triple 7 just to feel the .36 buck. I ran out of wonder wads so I was just seating against the powder with beeswax and crisco over the ball. I'm going to take corn meal with me today because I'm afraid I wasn't getting consistent compression with the light loads.

May I rant? My biggest challenge to consistency is that no one at my range shoots cap n ball (a lot of plastic in-ine muzzle loaders). You'd think the circus came to town when I show up. If I hear one more joke about "No smoking on the firing line" or "Hey, your gun's on fire." ,,,, I've had to resort to telling people they can watch me load, but they can't talk to me or else I'll screw up the sequence.

Last edited by Oquirrh; June 22, 2008 at 07:30 AM. Reason: a rant
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Old June 22, 2008, 08:04 AM   #8
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It's no real danger in using the hammer to seat caps. They take a sharp blow to set off, not pressure. If pressure would do it a wooden dowel wouldn't be safe either, just be careful letting the hammer down on them. No real risk of chain fires from pinch fit caps either. I pinch fit them for years because until recently nobody sold #10's locally. Never had a chain fire if I used a wad or over ball lube. I've even loaded all six and capped and fired them one at a time with no chains. Not saying it can't or wont happen but it's highly unlikely. You can drive the wedge in too far and put the cylinder in a bind. On my 60 Colt the wedge fits just barely past flush on the side opposite the screw. I can remove the wedge in mine with just my fingers but it won't come out during use.
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Old June 22, 2008, 09:42 AM   #9
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try slugging your barrel and measuring both the slug AND the diameter of your chambers. You may very well find that your chambers are grossly undersized (I've measured .36 cal Piettas having .375" bores and .367" chambers!). If they are, it may help explain why it won't shoot accurately. This can be easily fixed with a drill press and a .375" reamer.
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Old June 22, 2008, 11:30 AM   #10
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777 ffg is 15% more powerful than Goex ffg

If you loaded 26gr of 777 ffg it would = 22.1gr of Goex fffg BP...for me that's alot in a .36 Navy.
Could buldge the barrel assy at the wedge and arbor, if you hadn't removed the wedge from shipping to you, and it was in too far. Just need it in far enough to stay and not too far in to bind up the cylinder to the forcing cone.. 15-20gr BP is standard to me, I think the .36 cyl only holds about 25-28gr BP anyway.
By the way if you use ffg 777 it's even more than 15% than fffg BP, buy the ffg 777 if you must use it.

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Old June 22, 2008, 12:57 PM   #11
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There is a danger of your thumb slipping off the hammer & setting off a cap if you use the hammer to set them. That's why SASS has outlawed the practice. Err on the side of safety. An antler tip, dowell, piece of a broken ramrod etc. used to push the cap on the nipple is much safer, and as has been stated previously, caps ignite from impact, not pressure.

There is also the possibility of pinched caps allowing a chain fire - I've seen it happen on more than one occasion (same pistol, 3 successive stages in a 5 stage match once). Once properly sized caps were substituted for the mis-sized ones, the chainfires stopped. Firing a C&B without a cap on a charged chamber is asking for a chainfire. The only chainfire I've ever had was from an uncapped and charged chamber. Again, Err on the side of safety.

My standard load in a .36 Navy is 20 grains of Goex or Sheutzen, lubed wad and .380 ball. A steel framed Navy will handle 25 grains with no ill effects. However, max loads are not generally the most accurate. I've known bullseye shooters that only used 15 grain loads with a filler as their target load. Since 777 is hotter than real BP, a 15 grain load of it may be your best bet for accuracy.
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Old June 22, 2008, 01:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Firing a C&B without a cap on a charged shamber is asking for a chainfire.
That's why I did it to see if it would, it didn't after two full cylinders.
I bought my first bp revolver a 58 remington when I was 12. I didn't know squat about it. This was in 1969 and the shop owner that sold it to me didn't know much either. The gun took #9 caps which aren't made any more. All I could get were #11's. The thing is tho once I figured out to put a drop of oil on the loaded balls the chain fires quit, never had another one and I was using so much powder I had to carve the front of the balls off to get the cylinder to turn. Not long ago somebody on another forum was ranting about chain fires occuring from the nipple end so I tried it to see if I could get it to chain fire. BTW this was the same 58 Remington I started with. True enough I used Pyrodex for the test because I can't get real bp anymore but the original loads I was using was real Dupont bp. #11 caps on #9 nipples is a real sloppy fit. Rarely can you fire all six rounds without at least one falling off.
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Old June 22, 2008, 01:51 PM   #13
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Different experiences, different conditions, different results - Again - Err on the side of safety.
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Old June 22, 2008, 02:06 PM   #14
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Again - Err on the side of safety.
Good advice. I do things I don't recommend anyone else do.
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Old June 22, 2008, 05:13 PM   #15
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One More Thing...

Check Revolver(s) for chamber to barrel alignment, with a light to side or rear of rev place on full cock and see if cone flash hole is dead center to barrel/chamber. If it isn't chamber will show a sliver or quarter moon of the cylinder chamber over lapping the barrel. Viewed from barrel end. Called misalignment a factory defect.

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Old June 22, 2008, 05:56 PM   #16
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Good morning at the range...

I took the Pietta Navy (and the Remington) to the range for a quick follow up.

I was using only Kik black powder, just to keep things simple. I loaded 20 grains of Kik cornmeal filler to bring the ball to a 1/8" of the top of the cylinder. I used a top grease of Crisco/beeswax/parafin.

I'm still having trouble with the caps, but that's a matter of getting some correct-sized ones.

And the gun still gets so foul by the end of the second cylinder that the hammer is hanging up. (this time after the third cylinder I cleaned it with hot water and a rag and relubed the arbor with olive oil.

Grouping much better--the foto below is the best but only three shots (under the rammer) -- the other three misfired twice and I finally just fired them off down range to get rid of them. It was mostly luck and I'd settle for groups twice that size which I got from other cylinders. The holes below the trigger guard are from the Remington.

When I started shooting the '51 Pietta a couple weeks ago, the wedge was just barely past flush on the far side. Now it's completely through and the lip on the wedge is up against the frame. It's finger tight like that though and doesn't shake loose. Would heavy shooting cause that change that fast?

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Old June 22, 2008, 06:24 PM   #17
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Ummm, from the looks of the pic your wedge is in backwards. It goes in from the screw side. The lip on the spring is to catch on the screw head to keep it from coming all the way out. With the wedge in all the way you most likely don't have enough gap between the cylinder and forcing cone.
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Old June 22, 2008, 06:49 PM   #18
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Good cloverleaf group - even if it was only 3 rounds. Shows what it's capable of.

Well......... I'm not sure. At first glance it looks like it might be; but on closer examination it looks like the wedge is thicker than the slot, so It would be in right. The amount of shooting you've been doing shouldn't cause it to loosen up that quick unless you were using really heavy loads.

My 2nd Gen Colts, the wedge is finger loose and has yet to fall out during use. My Uberti Frontiersmen are not quite as loose as the Colts; but I can still remove it with a minimal amount of finger pressure. I've got a couple C&Bs that the wedge is tight on - you can put it in with finger pressure - but they won't come out without a little friendly persuasion; and some others that are really tight. While they all dont have the same amount of use, ones that have seen the most usage dont have the loosest wedges.

FWIW - I use bore butter on the arbors of my Colt style C&Bs. It fills the lube threads of the arbor and even on the hottest days, doesnt run out and cause the cylinders to drag or freeze up.

Again, FWIW. There is a series of articles in the Cowboy Chronicles - The newspaper of SASS - about tuning up C&B revolvers. June issue went through evaluating what neede to be done, and July's will go through the fixes, step by step. Article is geared towards Colt style C&Bs from Pietta and Uberti; although the information will be usefull to owners of COlt style C&Bs regardless of manufacturer.
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Old June 22, 2008, 06:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Well......... I'm not sure. At first glance it looks like it might be; but on closer examination it looks like the wedge is thicker than the slot,
If you look close you can see the lip on the spring and you can see the whole screw head. Shouldn't be able to see the whole thing and it doesn't look like the camera angle is enough to show it all. We'll find out when he gets back.
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Old June 22, 2008, 07:04 PM   #20
Oquirrh
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Wedge

that's the way it's always been put in and the only way it works so I think it's right.
it's got a lower lip on that side that is flush with the frame. the other side has hook on the spring.

But i've done dummer things, so don't be afraid to call me on stuff.





Can i read the Cowboy Chron online? I'd love to read those articles.

Oh yeah, someone mentioned miking the chambers. I'll get the caliper out, but I shave a slight bit of lead with a .375 ball, so I think they are ok.
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Old June 22, 2008, 07:28 PM   #21
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The wedge is right it just looked funny in the pic. It's in too far tho, you don't have enough gap between the barrel and cylinder. Might just need a new wedge.
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Old June 22, 2008, 10:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
One More Thing...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Check Revolver(s) for chamber to barrel alignment, with a light to side or rear of rev place on full cock and see if cone flash hole is dead center to barrel/chamber. If it isn't chamber will show a sliver or quarter moon of the cylinder chamber over lapping the barrel. Viewed from barrel end. Called misalignment a factory defect.

SG

Oquirrh, did you note the above quote?
What were your findings?
And screw filler press that ball down on the powder and shoot.

SG
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Old June 22, 2008, 10:42 PM   #23
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Can i read the Cowboy Chron online? I'd love to read those articles.
You need to be a SASS member to get it - or find one near you and borrow theirs. To find a club near you, go to www.sassnet.com then click on Affiliated Clubs; then click on your state to find the clubs in your state. There will be contact information for that club. I'm sure there will be someone that will pass their Chronicle along to you.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:43 PM   #24
Oquirrh
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Another day of shooting...

'51 Navy was frustrating again. I'm going to replace nipples and the wedge and start all over with this wheel-gun.

Question: The arbor is bottomed out in its shaft in the barrel, leaving a tight but not too tight barrel gap. Does that sound right? As I said before the wedge is barely finger tight now.

On the other hand the Rem. New Army .44 was right on target and hummin' 'em into a three inch circle at 50'. I think if the '58 had a better sight picture it would rival my Ruger OA.

I'm still waiting for parts for my Uberti Pocket Navy.
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Old June 27, 2008, 08:04 PM   #25
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Wedge was too tight/in too far to start with Oquirrh

Quote:
Question: The arbor is bottomed out in its shaft in the barrel, leaving a tight but not too tight barrel gap. Does that sound right? As I said before the wedge is barely finger tight now.
Oquirrh
A wedge sould be pushed in by hand, not tapped in or hammered in till the spring end clears the frame on the otherside. If new they are usually flush to the other side...not pushed thru.
you used corn meal to raise the ball, don't it ain't a cartridge gun. Corn meal is cereal and it helps bind up your Rev quicker. Use lube pills they work best...I hate Crisco and won't use it but I'd say use it till you find Lube pills. Ask me and will let you know where.
Cly being too tight, w/wedge in too far, no lube , and cornmeal..why would that poor Colt work right?

You probly won't anwer this posting as you haven't replied to any other Posts I hsve taken the timne to try ahd help you with.


And if your name is Larry, then I consider the source...and your welcome.


SG
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