The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 19, 2008, 07:23 PM   #1
911turbo
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2008
Posts: 4
Walther PPKS (Date of MFG)

I am looking at a used PPKS at an estate sale. No one knows when or where
it was made. The serial number is 215125. Can anyone help me to determine what year and where the pistol was made? Also, the gun is in very good condition, what should it be worth?

Thanks
911turbo is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 08:07 PM   #2
PSP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2006
Location: N. Virginia
Posts: 3,898
More info as to markings would help.

Some PPKs have a date stamped onto the outside of the chamber, as in the picture, showing 68 as in 1968.
PSP is online now  
Old June 19, 2008, 08:50 PM   #3
Stiofan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2006
Location: Panhandle, Idaho
Posts: 691
All Walther PPK/S were produced in one of 2 places, France or the US.

In 1968 the US law changed which required Walther to marry the larger PP frame with the shorter PPK slide and barrel, thus the PPK/S was born.

Almost all US guns were either imported by Interarms (will say made in W Germany) but manufactured in France by Manhurin before being sent to Ulm, Germany for proof testing, or when in 1986 the France plant lost it's license to make the PP series and the manufacture was changed to the Interarms contracted plant in the USA (mfg in USA), under Walther supervision. Lastly when Interarms stopped manufacturing (owner died, went out of business), S&W began production in America (mfg. USA) again under Walther supervision. Some parts have always been made for these guns in Ulm, Germany, but final assembly and proofing determines country of manufacture, hence why the French guns will show a German manufacture, as that is where they were proofed and the US guns will show a USA manufacture..

The side of your gun slide should say where it was manufactured, I'm guessing W. Germany, which means at the French factory.

Quote:
"I have owned both Manurhin and Walther produced PPK/S's and the Manurhin guns struck me as being every bit the equal of the German built guns."

That's because they're AREN'T any "German made" PP series pistols, and haven't been any since 1945.

When WWII ended, the Walther plant was completely bombed out. What was left ended up in Russian hands.
The Walther family escaped to the West, bringing with them the critical production plans for the Walther firearms.

When the new West German government wanted to adopt the P-38 pistol, Walther had the plans but no production plant.
Rumor has it, that the French had removed the P-38 production tooling, jigs, and dies from the Mauser plant before finally destroying it.

Walther contracted production of the P-38 and later the PP series guns with the French Manurhin company.

After Walther built a new plant in Ulm, all P-38 production was moved back to Germany, but Walther decided to keep having Manurhin produce the PP series pistols in France under contract.

The guns were manufactured in France, shipped a few miles over the border to Ulm, where they were blued, proof-fired, stamped "Made in Germany", and sold as German-made Walther pistols.

To be fair, in Europe the country where the final proof is conducted is considered the country of manufacture.

So, until Walther contracted with InterArms to have the PPK and PPK/s pistols produced in the US, ALL PP series pistols were actually made in France by Manurhin.

Some of you may remember the Walther/Manurhin "Advertising War" of the mid 1980's.
The license with Manurhin had expired after Walther had the guns produced here, and the Manurhin company decided to market their "own" PPK/s pistols.

Walther's ads said that ONLY Walther-marked guns were "genuine". Manuhrin's ads said that since they had actually made ALL the guns since 1945, THEY were the "genuine" gun.

Somehow Walther and Manurhin resolved the dispute after about a year, and no more Manurhin-marked guns were imported.

A side-by-side comparison of contemporary Walther and Manurhin PPK/s pistols revealed that the guns were in fact produced on the same production machines.
Machine marks were exactly the same on both guns, the plastic box was from the same mold, and the instruction manual for the Manurhin was exactly the same as the Walther manual, except the pictures had the Walther name air-brushed out, and replaced with Manurhin marks.

All through the 50's, 60's and early 70's when the gun magazines had their annual "round-up" articles on pocket autos, they always described the Walther PP series guns as "Typically fine Teutonic quality" and "High quality German craftsmanship".

After the guns started to be produced here in America, they blandly informed us that they'd always known the guns were produced in France.

So, arguments over which is the better gun, a German PP series or a French Manuring PP series gun is a moot point.
They were produced on the same equipment, in the same French plant, by the same French workers.

In short, There AIN'T no "German" PP series guns, and haven't been any since Adolph bit the Big One.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-80222.html

Plenty of other links to document this. So just check the gun slide to see what is stamped there.
Stiofan is offline  
Old June 20, 2008, 11:44 AM   #4
Searcher451
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 121
911: Head over the P38 Forum and post your inquiry there under the PP/PPK section. The folks who literally wrote the books on these guns reside there and will answer your question within a day or so. Provide as much information about the gun's markings as you can. Here's a link:

http://forums.p38forum.com/forums/
__________________
"Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this sun of York."
Shakespeare
Searcher451 is offline  
Old June 20, 2008, 08:26 PM   #5
44 Deerslayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2005
Location: MN
Posts: 335
If it was made by Interarms, most of the records are gone. This is a common question on the Walther Forum and usually has no answer.

If you have the original box with test target, that's your best source of a manufacture date since the test targets are dated.

You can try asking at the Walther Forum, they have a PPK/S section.

http://www.waltherforums.com/vb/index.php
__________________
Ron
NRA Life Member
44 Deerslayer is offline  
Old June 21, 2008, 06:09 PM   #6
911turbo
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2008
Posts: 4
Walther PPKS

I've researched the gun and it is a 1976 model made in West Germany/France.
It is in 100% condition and has never been shot. The serial # is 215125.
It has the case and manual. All are are in perfact condition. What do you
guys think it is worth??

I'm ready to buy, just need some feedback from some knowledgeable owners.

Thanks
911turbo is offline  
Old June 21, 2008, 06:26 PM   #7
denfoote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 1999
Location: Buckeye Arizona
Posts: 5,526
Google is your friend!!!

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Guns-Fire...Info-PPK-S.htm

Quote:
The PPK/S German version in "good" condition has an approximate retail value of $375 and a PPK/S American in "good" condition has an approximate retail value of $300. I do not however have any reliable info concerning the year of manufacture. However, an educated guess can be made by the available info listed on this firearm. You may want to check the barrel and see if you can locate any stampings on same. If so and it begins with a number (IE. "68" - - -") the 68 indicates the year the pistol was proof stamped. We already know that due to the G.C.A./68 that the PPK became the PPK/S which has modifications made to allow U.S. import, that your Walther was made after that.
I have a PPK/S that is roll marked WALTHER USA LLC.
I frankly do not know if it is a S&W or Interarms made gun because I bought it right at the time when Smith was transitioning to take over production from the then newly defunct Interarms.
Walther USA LLC no longer exists, so I'm thinking it was a temporary company, set up by Smith, to liquidate the old Interarms inventory.
The opinion of the "experts" is divided almost 50-50 on the question!!
Frankly, I've given up trying to find out for sure!!!
__________________
Ich bin kein Nationalsozialist!!!!!!
Ich bin Republikaner!!!!!!!!
Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset.
Arizona: Flush the Johns!!!
denfoote is offline  
Old June 22, 2008, 08:12 AM   #8
PSP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2006
Location: N. Virginia
Posts: 3,898
Quote:
It is in 100% condition and has never been shot
If it is a '76 PPK/S with German proofs it is probably made in Germany and imported by Interarms. In ANIB condition, a blued model may fetch more than the ubiquitous stainless model (you didn't say which finish it is), perhaps around $500-$600. Stainless generally sell around $400. I purchased a SS Interarms PPK/S not too long ago. It clearly states "made in USA".

If you can purchase for anything near the $500 area I would do it, were I you. What are they asking for it?

Last edited by PSP; June 22, 2008 at 03:35 PM.
PSP is online now  
Old June 22, 2008, 03:23 PM   #9
911turbo
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2008
Posts: 4
Walther PPKS Update

It's a .380 cal. and blued. I looked at it yesterday and talked to the family.
This pistol has never been fired. It's been in a dresser drawer since 1976.
The box, extra mag. (that's never been in) and manual are all 100%. The gun is like brand new. They were asking $ 500. I told them to hold it for me until
Monday. Based upon what I'm hearing from you guys and looking at the gun
I'm going to buy it, it's beautful. Wow what a find.

Thanks for all your help...
911turbo is offline  
Old June 22, 2008, 03:36 PM   #10
cxg231
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2008
Location: Henderson, NV
Posts: 203
FWIW - I bought a brand new S&W PPK for just under $500 recently.

The gun you are describing sounds really great, and $500 sounds fair. I would probably buy it for $500, I would definitely buy it for $450.
cxg231 is offline  
Old June 22, 2008, 03:37 PM   #11
PSP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2006
Location: N. Virginia
Posts: 3,898
Please follow up with comments and pictures after you obtain the pistol. Nice find, fair price.
PSP is online now  
Old June 22, 2008, 10:24 PM   #12
Stiofan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2006
Location: Panhandle, Idaho
Posts: 691
They are going to vary in price. I regularly see the German made guns going for about $900 in California at most of the gun shows/pawns. Other areas may be less. I bought mine used, but it was in good condition, for about $285. That was in the late 80s though, and I have been following them since.

Regardless, you're getting an excellent buy!

Enjoy your find.
Stiofan is offline  
Old June 24, 2008, 05:14 PM   #13
911turbo
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2008
Posts: 4
PPKS pics

Well, here it is. I picked it up yesterday. I also included a shot of my other pistols.

1976 PPKS .380 cal, blued. I took it apart to see if it had been fired, and it was clean. Never had a bullet through it. Also I looked at the mags. both
have never had bullets in them. This is a 32 year old gun that is as it was then from the dealer. Now my problem is I'm not sure I want to shoot it.

What is your views on this. Keep it as new, or shoot it. How much do you guys think it would reduce the value. I plan on keeping it forever at this point
and giving it to my kids someday along with the others.

Sorry the detail of the photos isn't that good but at least you can see it.

Thanks...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Guns 003.jpg (237.2 KB, 846 views)
File Type: jpg Guns 002.jpg (231.9 KB, 701 views)
File Type: jpg Guns 001.jpg (247.7 KB, 653 views)
911turbo is offline  
Old June 24, 2008, 05:40 PM   #14
cxg231
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2008
Location: Henderson, NV
Posts: 203
Very nice! If you plan I keeping it forever (no cares about depreciation), I would shoot it. Otherwise it is just a paperweight! Just my $.02

Congrats!
cxg231 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09701 seconds with 8 queries