Point & Shoot

okjoe · January 29, 2000, 11:38 AM

I have been trying to get police and others interested in
the Point & Shoot (P&S), method of shooting, and in
using what I call a P&S Index Finger Rest.

The P&S method of shooting is a method of instinctive
shooting that is fast and accurate.

You may be interested in the results of two recent test
shoots using a "Test" peel and stick version of the P&S
Index Finger Rest. The results are below.

First, here is some background info on the P&S method of
shooting and the P&S index finger rest. You can skip this
part and get to the results below if you like, but P&S is not
Point Shooting as that term is generally understood.

P&S has been tested and developed at the Vermont Police
Academy. There, the term Point Shooting was used to ID it.
That unfortunately,can result in some confusion as to just
what is being talked about, and that is why I use the term
P&S to identify it.

P&S is almost if not totally instinctive and mechanical, not
cognitive and mechanical, and it is expected to be the next
step in the evolution of survival shooting. It is taught to VSP
members.

The basics of P&S are not new, but they are not widely
known and accepted in the gun community for use with
pistols. For example, I was told by and old sergeant to
use the method away back in 1954 when shooting my
grease gun from the hip. It worked then and still does.

A P&S INDEX FINGER REST

A P&S Index Finger Rest is a simple, cheap, reliable, and
easy to use addon that provides the means for using the
P&S shooting method. It allows one to shoot fast, accurately,
and multiple times instinctively at night or day, and with little
or no training. It can be part of the grip or the frame, or it can
be a separate attachment.

A P&S Index Finger Rest is added to the side of the gun just
above the trigger guard. It extends about 3/4 of an inch out
from the side of the gun like a small shelf. It is aligned with
the barrel and positioned so that when you grasp the gun,
your index finger will fit snugly up against it.

END VIEW

OOOO
OOOO
OOOO_____ <- Finger Rest
OOOO|
OOOO|
OOOO
OOOO
OOOO
OOOO

To use it:

1. You grasp the gun,
2. Point your index finger at the target, and
3. Shoot using your middle or left index finger.

That is all there is to it.

Additional information on P&S is available on my web site: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm

TEST RESULTS:

"Test" versions of the P&S Index Finger Rest were sent to
several people late last year. I followed up with questions
on how their test shoots went.

The questions I sent and the responses received to date are
below. They are sparse, but like other tests before them,
they prove that the P&S method of shooting and the P&S
Index Finger Rest do work.

********************
Questions Asked:
********************

A. Were you able to shoot fast, accurately, multiple times,
and instinctively using the "Test" P&S Index Finger Rest?

B. Would you recommend that other police agencies test
them?

C. Would you recommend that gun makers offer a frame
or grip that incorporates a P&S Index Finger Rest?

D. Any general or specific comments?

*************
Responses:
*************

I have shot using the P&S method. I have had varied results.

I shot 700 rounds using the method with my S&W 4506.
100 at 1 yard (quick draw...shoot from the hip)
100 at 3 yards double tap technique
100 at 5 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds
100 at 7 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds
100 at 10 yards
100 at 15 yards
100 at 25 yards

From 10 yards and under, I found that it was extremely
accurate... and to be honest... how many gun fights will you
get into at more than that?

At the 15 yard mark, I had trouble keeping the target, until I
canted the weapon to the left (I'm a righty shooter)... gangster
style... but not as much cant... maybe 45 degrees.

At the 25 yard mark, I had trouble hitting the target. I can see
the potential for this technique, but I guess I must practice it
at long range to become extremely accurate.

I think I would be a great idea to have this technique taught
at the police academies and also have the gun manufacturers
create a grip with the guide built in... but maybe not as wide
off the grip. Maybe a 1/4 inch off the gun... just using it as
support anyway.

**********
**********
I find no difference either myself or by students between this
training aid and using a frame characteristic. I tried glue-on
dots { they are used as non-abrasive feet for calculators etc.
and are 3/16" dia.} as a more acceptable, holsterable substitute.
They are just as successful in untrained hands.

2. If you made a test shoot:

A. Were you able to shoot fast, accurately, multiple times,
and instinctively using the "Test" P&S Index Finger Rest?

They [the students] could point shoot.

I cannot say I was but then I am an above average shot. I can
put 5 shots from a .357 into 3" at 7 yds in 2 seconds.

B. Would you recommend that other police agencies test
them?

As a training adjuct, why not.

C. Would you recommend that gun makers offer a frame
or grip that incorporates a P&S Index Finger Rest?

no
D. Any general or specific comments?

Point shooting is the sensible route to defensive use of pistol
at 5 yards or less. This is one way to teach point shooting.
It is not a practical carry gun alternative.

**********
**********

Here are some added comments of mine.

It is an odd quirk of the gun community, that handguns used
by the average shooter, are no different than those used by
the experts. Though the same can be said of the tools used
in other arenas, in other areans, your life most probably will
not be forfeited if you lose.

Police gunfight accuracy rates and police casualty rates cry
out for improvment in close quarters shooting methods and
means, or both. The P&S method and a P&S Index Finger
Rest provide a response.

The accuracy rates are so bad, less than 20% hits, there is
little to lose and much to gain from at least testing P&S.

In a test I made with a "Test" P&S Index Finger Rest, I was
able to hit an 11 x 17 inch target at 25 feet, 6 out of 7 times
while shooting as fast as I could point my indexfinger at the
target and pull the trigger, and I hadn't shot a gun in over 40
years when I made the test.

A lot of people have said the P&S is bs, or that it just won't
work, etc.. However none of them have tried it or a P&S
Index Finger Rest. They must have crystal balls or some
other means of determining what works and what doesn't
by just thinking about it. No one who has tried either the
method or a finger rest has said they don't work.

A P&S Index Finger Rest can help to equalize the difference
between the expert and the average shooter, and increase
the shooting ability of one non expert shooter over another.

And what is true for gun professionals, is even more true for
the anxious home defender who may have bought a gun with
the thought in mind that in a high stress situation, when their
life was on the line, they would be able to use it effectively in
their self defense.
Works for assault rifles too.

[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited January 29, 2000).]

**Art Eatman** · January 29, 2000, 04:16 PM

For an Old Fart with decades of reflexes, I won't try to unlearn an old method and learn a new method. I've just been poking the index finger into the trigger guard for too long.

That said, I've advocated that P&S style to a non-shooter or raw beginner, since some 20 years back. These are folks who will never do any notable amount of practicing. They'll buy some revolver for home defense, shoot just enough (maybe) to learn the rudiments--and then "park it and leave it".

I've used a simple system: "See that doorknob? Close your eyes. Now point at the doorknob. Open your eyes. See? You're pointing right at it. Okay, do the same with your pistol, using "The" finger on the trigger." Since it's almost infallible to 10 or 15 yards, what more does a once-in-a-lifetime user need? It's AFTER that "once" that they become "Shooters".

FWIW, Art

labgrade · January 30, 2000, 02:19 AM

Art,

Ditto. For a quick SD situation at SD ranges (7 yds or so - usually much shorter) the "point" (duh!) your finger approach works very well indeed.

I've tried several times to get some to understand this most basic concept with varying results. Once the trigger squeeze (even in the "break now!" mode) is grasped, it is amazing how well even beginners dump 'em on into the X-ring. It's so instinctive that trying to "teach" someone to do this is almost like "unlearning" ingrained bad habits.

One can reach for a telephone & grab it everytime without sights & rubber-dubbies. Same for a pistol & I don't even have to stick that in my ear!

January 29, 2000, 11:38 AM	#1
okjoe Junior member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 66	I have been trying to get police and others interested in the Point & Shoot (P&S), method of shooting, and in using what I call a P&S Index Finger Rest. The P&S method of shooting is a method of instinctive shooting that is fast and accurate. You may be interested in the results of two recent test shoots using a "Test" peel and stick version of the P&S Index Finger Rest. The results are below. First, here is some background info on the P&S method of shooting and the P&S index finger rest. You can skip this part and get to the results below if you like, but P&S is not Point Shooting as that term is generally understood. P&S has been tested and developed at the Vermont Police Academy. There, the term Point Shooting was used to ID it. That unfortunately,can result in some confusion as to just what is being talked about, and that is why I use the term P&S to identify it. P&S is almost if not totally instinctive and mechanical, not cognitive and mechanical, and it is expected to be the next step in the evolution of survival shooting. It is taught to VSP members. The basics of P&S are not new, but they are not widely known and accepted in the gun community for use with pistols. For example, I was told by and old sergeant to use the method away back in 1954 when shooting my grease gun from the hip. It worked then and still does. A P&S INDEX FINGER REST A P&S Index Finger Rest is a simple, cheap, reliable, and easy to use addon that provides the means for using the P&S shooting method. It allows one to shoot fast, accurately, and multiple times instinctively at night or day, and with little or no training. It can be part of the grip or the frame, or it can be a separate attachment. A P&S Index Finger Rest is added to the side of the gun just above the trigger guard. It extends about 3/4 of an inch out from the side of the gun like a small shelf. It is aligned with the barrel and positioned so that when you grasp the gun, your index finger will fit snugly up against it. END VIEW OOOO OOOO OOOO_____ <- Finger Rest OOOO\| OOOO\| OOOO OOOO OOOO OOOO To use it: 1. You grasp the gun, 2. Point your index finger at the target, and 3. Shoot using your middle or left index finger. That is all there is to it. Additional information on P&S is available on my web site: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm TEST RESULTS: "Test" versions of the P&S Index Finger Rest were sent to several people late last year. I followed up with questions on how their test shoots went. The questions I sent and the responses received to date are below. They are sparse, but like other tests before them, they prove that the P&S method of shooting and the P&S Index Finger Rest do work. ****************** Questions Asked: **************** A. Were you able to shoot fast, accurately, multiple times, and instinctively using the "Test" P&S Index Finger Rest? B. Would you recommend that other police agencies test them? C. Would you recommend that gun makers offer a frame or grip that incorporates a P&S Index Finger Rest? D. Any general or specific comments? ********* Responses: ********* I have shot using the P&S method. I have had varied results. I shot 700 rounds using the method with my S&W 4506. 100 at 1 yard (quick draw...shoot from the hip) 100 at 3 yards double tap technique 100 at 5 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds 100 at 7 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds 100 at 10 yards 100 at 15 yards 100 at 25 yards From 10 yards and under, I found that it was extremely accurate... and to be honest... how many gun fights will you get into at more than that? At the 15 yard mark, I had trouble keeping the target, until I canted the weapon to the left (I'm a righty shooter)... gangster style... but not as much cant... maybe 45 degrees. At the 25 yard mark, I had trouble hitting the target. I can see the potential for this technique, but I guess I must practice it at long range to become extremely accurate. I think I would be a great idea to have this technique taught at the police academies and also have the gun manufacturers create a grip with the guide built in... but maybe not as wide off the grip. Maybe a 1/4 inch off the gun... just using it as support anyway. ****** ****** I find no difference either myself or by students between this training aid and using a frame characteristic. I tried glue-on dots { they are used as non-abrasive feet for calculators etc. and are 3/16" dia.} as a more acceptable, holsterable substitute. They are just as successful in untrained hands. 2. If you made a test shoot: A. Were you able to shoot fast, accurately, multiple times, and instinctively using the "Test" P&S Index Finger Rest? They [the students] could point shoot. I cannot say I was but then I am an above average shot. I can put 5 shots from a .357 into 3" at 7 yds in 2 seconds. B. Would you recommend that other police agencies test them? As a training adjuct, why not. C. Would you recommend that gun makers offer a frame or grip that incorporates a P&S Index Finger Rest? no D. Any general or specific comments? Point shooting is the sensible route to defensive use of pistol at 5 yards or less. This is one way to teach point shooting. It is not a practical carry gun alternative. ****** ******** Here are some added comments of mine. It is an odd quirk of the gun community, that handguns used by the average shooter, are no different than those used by the experts. Though the same can be said of the tools used in other arenas, in other areans, your life most probably will not be forfeited if you lose. Police gunfight accuracy rates and police casualty rates cry out for improvment in close quarters shooting methods and means, or both. The P&S method and a P&S Index Finger Rest provide a response. The accuracy rates are so bad, less than 20% hits, there is little to lose and much to gain from at least testing P&S. In a test I made with a "Test" P&S Index Finger Rest, I was able to hit an 11 x 17 inch target at 25 feet, 6 out of 7 times while shooting as fast as I could point my indexfinger at the target and pull the trigger, and I hadn't shot a gun in over 40 years when I made the test. A lot of people have said the P&S is bs, or that it just won't work, etc.. However none of them have tried it or a P&S Index Finger Rest. They must have crystal balls or some other means of determining what works and what doesn't by just thinking about it. No one who has tried either the method or a finger rest has said they don't work. A P&S Index Finger Rest can help to equalize the difference between the expert and the average shooter, and increase the shooting ability of one non expert shooter over another. And what is true for gun professionals, is even more true for the anxious home defender who may have bought a gun with the thought in mind that in a high stress situation, when their life was on the line, they would be able to use it effectively in their self defense. Works for assault rifles too. [This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited January 29, 2000).]

January 29, 2000, 04:16 PM	#2
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 21,047	For an Old Fart with decades of reflexes, I won't try to unlearn an old method and learn a new method. I've just been poking the index finger into the trigger guard for too long. That said, I've advocated that P&S style to a non-shooter or raw beginner, since some 20 years back. These are folks who will never do any notable amount of practicing. They'll buy some revolver for home defense, shoot just enough (maybe) to learn the rudiments--and then "park it and leave it". I've used a simple system: "See that doorknob? Close your eyes. Now point at the doorknob. Open your eyes. See? You're pointing right at it. Okay, do the same with your pistol, using "The" finger on the trigger." Since it's almost infallible to 10 or 15 yards, what more does a once-in-a-lifetime user need? It's AFTER that "once" that they become "Shooters". FWIW, Art

January 30, 2000, 02:19 AM	#3
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Art, Ditto. For a quick SD situation at SD ranges (7 yds or so - usually much shorter) the "point" (duh!) your finger approach works very well indeed. I've tried several times to get some to understand this most basic concept with varying results. Once the trigger squeeze (even in the "break now!" mode) is grasped, it is amazing how well even beginners dump 'em on into the X-ring. It's so instinctive that trying to "teach" someone to do this is almost like "unlearning" ingrained bad habits. One can reach for a telephone & grab it everytime without sights & rubber-dubbies. Same for a pistol & I don't even have to stick that in my ear!