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Old June 16, 2008, 09:02 AM   #1
stephen426
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How would this disarming technique work?

I was thinking about a disarming technique that could be used in a hold up type situation. Obviously situational awareness is the best prevention, but sometimes things happen. I also know that disarming techniques should only be used as a last resort, but there have been too many instances where compliance still led to being shot and killed.

With that said...

Say the bad guy has the gun leveled at you and is within contact distance (possibly gun pressed against you). You raised your hands in the typical surrender positiion and proceed to "verbally distract him" by saying things such as "Take the money. Just don't hurt me.". Lets assume that the bad guy is holding the gun with his right hand for this technique. Using your right hand, sweep the gun away from your body and simultaneously use your left hand to hit the attacker in the throat using an open hand technique (like you were going to choke them). That should cause them to either drop the gun and grab their throat, or at least buy you enough time to draw your own weapon or continue your attack. The bad guy's gun will probably go off, but you should not be in the line of fire if you swept it away from your body. You should also not telegraph your intentions to bad guy before you act.

Would any of you guys try it out (using and Airsoft preferably) and let me know if you were able to sweep the gun before getting shot? (My wife wasn't up for the simulation ). You should obviously use light force when striking each other or use some kind of padding.
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Old June 16, 2008, 09:42 AM   #2
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That should cause them to either drop the gun and grab their throat, or at least buy you enough time to draw your own weapon or continue your attack.
That's a BIG "should". If it doesn't work, you're dead meat. Granted, you might be dead meat anyway, but why provoke him? I'm 54 and not in the best physical shape I could be in. Could I pull this off on a fit, 20 y.o. attacker?

I'll be real honest, that sounds like a scene from "The Karate Kid 2" where they're in the castle with the little drum rattles and Daniel-san is fighting the bad guy du jour. "Listen to drum."

OK, let's hear from the guys who really know - the martial arts and self defense experts. How much of a real chance does this have of working?
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Old June 16, 2008, 10:10 AM   #3
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This method continues on past just striking him in the throat and has more than a few variations depending on what school of martial art you study and who your instructor is. In actual application, it probably wont go down nearly as smoothly, and more improvising will need to be done after the initial weapon sweep.

With your hands in the air, you use whichever arm would cause the weapon to sweep across less of your body than the other - IE, if its more to your left side, then you would use your right. Some instructors teach you to grab the slide of the gun, hopefully causing it to jam if it goes off. Others tell you to grab the wrist (at the joint, so the hand cannot pivot and still point the gun at you) and save your hand from the damage the slide would do.

The strike to the throat should land at the same time the gun is no longer pointed directly at you. Once the strike has landed, I was taught to step back with the foot that is on the same side as the gun, and sweep the striking hand to support the other hand that is holding the gun/wrist, pulling it (and the opponents body) towards you, and and issue a kick or knee strike with the now front foot to the attackers groin area.

Following the kick/knee, you can step back forward to close the distance and either use a wrist or elbow lock to make them drop the gun.

I was never of the understanding that the throat strike alone would cause them to drop the gun.

For what its worth, in every single disarming technique, whether from this "front and center" or "from the side execution style", I cannot think of an instance in which a student or instructor was able to shoot while the gun was still covering a part of their body.

Edited to say:

If I was armed, I would probably just sweep with my weak side, draw with my strong side, and use a bullet instead of my hand. :T
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Old June 16, 2008, 10:21 AM   #4
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Just my .02, I have about four years practical hand to hand defense training, nothing really is perfect and will work 100% of the time.

Moving out of the line of fire is the right idea, because the possibility that the gun goes off as you react is almost certain. Once you are out of the line of fire you have split seconds to react before he resets the trigger and moves the muzzle on to you. What you do then is what will save your life, if you're armed and are quick to draw from concealment with one hand, as your other hand is still on the assailant keeping the muzzle away from you, take the shot. If you are unarmed the only thing I could envisage is crushing the guys windpipe or jamming your fingers in his eyes and taking his firearm away from him (not easy but not impossible).

I would personally give up the money if that's what he wants, if he is trying to kill you then you would already be dead before you knew what was going on.

One of the instructors I have trained with is in the video that follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEMJPIXipP4

Hope I could be of some help...

ETA: ajohnny50 beat me to it, I agree with what he said
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Last edited by RF11; June 16, 2008 at 10:25 AM. Reason: beat me to it
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Old June 16, 2008, 11:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltyke
That's a BIG "should". If it doesn't work, you're dead meat. Granted, you might be dead meat anyway, but why provoke him? I'm 54 and not in the best physical shape I could be in. Could I pull this off on a fit, 20 y.o. attacker?

I'll be real honest, that sounds like a scene from "The Karate Kid 2" where they're in the castle with the little drum rattles and Daniel-san is fighting the bad guy du jour. "Listen to drum."

OK, let's hear from the guys who really know - the martial arts and self defense experts. How much of a real chance does this have of working?
I'm not trying to sound like a martial arts expert or anything like that. You have to assess your threat and determine what your chances are. There are no guarantees that resisting will save you. Like you said, it may even get you killed. If the bad guy is out of range, then there is little you can do.
You have to analyze the scenario and see if resisting makes sense. Like I said, there are plenty of situations where the victim was 100% compliant and subsequently executed in cold blood. If I have an opportunity, I don't believe that I am going to leave my life at the "mercy" of the bad guy.

I'm in my early 30s and have some martial arts experience. It was a long while ago, but I remember most of the strikes. I still move pretty quick and hit pretty hard.

The idea with a strike to the throat is that the size of the bad guy becomes less of an issue. There are no cheap shots when it comes to your survival. I would go for the most debilitating points I can including the eyes, throat, and groin. I'm not expecting the bad guy to drop his weapon after a hard strike to the throat, but I'm sure it will buy me a few precious seconds to follow up that strike with more strikes or pulling my own gun.

I hope I never get into a situation where I have to use these techniques. I just opened a new restaurant though and have already terminated a few trouble makers. I just hope they don't come back looking for trouble.
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Old June 16, 2008, 11:31 AM   #6
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Lots of strikes available. I like either the throat or brachial nerve stun. After the strike while my arm is coming back I prefer to draw and shove the attacker down and put a few rounds in. If he needs another strike before I can draw so be it. Things like close combat are so dynamic there are lots of options, which I like.
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Old June 16, 2008, 09:20 PM   #7
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Since only a sweep was done with the strike, and not a grab for either the shooters gun arm nor the gun itself, you open yourself to the BG moving backwards (maybe firing while backpeddling to), or pulling the gun back. Also you lose contact with the person.

I strongly suggest either pinning the shooters gun arm (Krav Maga) or a gun rip (as the NYPD teach). In either case, control the weapon as you get out of the line of fire either by moving or deflecting the weapon. Never let go of the weapon, and always have a plan 'B' incase the first part of the disarm fails.
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Old June 16, 2008, 09:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
Since only a sweep was done with the strike, and not a grab for either the shooters gun arm nor the gun itself, you open yourself to the BG moving backwards (maybe firing while backpeddling to), or pulling the gun back. Also you lose contact with the person.

I strongly suggest either pinning the shooters gun arm (Krav Maga) or a gun rip (as the NYPD teach). In either case, control the weapon as you get out of the line of fire either by moving or deflecting the weapon. Never let go of the weapon, and always have a plan 'B' incase the first part of the disarm fails.
I like this kind of input...

I learned some disarming techniques in a women's self defense course (my wife volunteered me as the punching bag ). Pretty much all of the moves start with sweeping the gun and moving away from the line of fire. The class taught a technique where the gun is twisted sideways and then upwards.

My concern with this technique is that the bad guy will pull the trigger once you start to resist. If you are holding the gun and it goes off, chances are you will let go (if it is a semi auto). This give the bad guy an opportunity to shoot you. Strength also becomes an issue, even though many of these techniques use the idea of leverage. Holding the gun also puts you in close proximity to the attacker and he may grab or strike you. There is also the concern that the more complicated the maneuver, the more difficult to execute under pressure.

The throat is a highly vulnerable area regardless of size. The groin is also sensative regardless of the attacker's size. A hard strike will to the throat will often cause the throat to spasm and will slow down most people. The idea behind the open handed strike is decreasing the chances of missing. Like I said in my initial post, you can then follow the strike up with additional strikes or pull your own gun.
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Old June 16, 2008, 11:25 PM   #9
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Shortly after my son finished basic training he found himself facing someone with a gun in a parking lot. The BG made a show of racking the slide as he walked over to him, then my son noticed that there wasn't a mag in the gun. When he pointed the gun at my son's face, he just started laughing, knowing it was unloaded. I guess all his recent force-on-force training helped him keep his cool and be able to think more rationally. He told the guy his gun was unloaded, the guy tried to continue to bluff, then my son swept his hands in opposite directions, one on the barrel and one on the grip. The gun fell to the pavement and he believes he broke at least one of the guy's fingers. The guys started cussing and threatening to call the cops, and my son just walked off laughing. He should have called the cops and probably secured the gun somehow, but I think he did reasonably well under the circumstances.
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Old June 18, 2008, 08:27 AM   #10
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I tried it with a Sig Sauer 9mm, with snap caps. We had observers present who kept eyes on the sights, so we could tell where the gun was pointed when it was fired.

A few observations:

1. You're absolutely right about the gun being fired. The attacker pulled the trigger. Every single time.

2. Given the way I ended up gripping the slide of the gun, we all figured the gun would experience a stove-pipe jam about half of the time.

3. The attacker shot me in the shoulder as I swept the gun out of the way almost 70% of the time. (It was VERY difficult to move the gun all the way past my body line before the attacker could pull the trigger.) We figured that, for each of the times I got shot, the yoke-hand to the throat would not have been possible. When we tried this technique with a threat to the face, I was able to move the gun out of the way of my head in more than half of the attempts.

4. The attacker NEVER let go of the gun. In every attempt, the attacker kept his grip on the gun and curled his arms in toward his chest, making my grip on the gun VERY difficult to maintain. The muzzle swept back and forth across my bodyline as he and I struggled on the ground for the gun. On more than one occasion, I ended up with cuts on my hand from the front sights.

CONCLUSION: Do NOT attempt to disarm an attacker armed with a gun unless you are CERTAIN that you are about to be killed. Even under the best of circumstances, this technique only worked about half the time. And, under the circumstances presented in this hypothetical, I got shot MOST of the time.

Also, this technique could be better modified by dropping the yoke-hand to the throat, and instead substituting a two-handed grip on the gun, and some sort of stripping movement to rip the gun out of the attacker's hands.

Hope this helps!
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Old June 18, 2008, 09:01 AM   #11
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I just opened a new restaurant though and have already terminated a few trouble makers. I just hope they don't come back looking for trouble.
As the manager/owner, in most states you are allowed to carry openly at your place of business. That would be a real deterrent. Strap a 1911 or Glock or .357 on your belt and most crooks will think twice.
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Old June 18, 2008, 10:39 AM   #12
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As the manager/owner, in most states you are allowed to carry openly at your place of business. That would be a real deterrent. Strap a 1911 or Glock or .357 on your belt and most crooks will think twice.
I wish I could, but it is a large, well known brand. They have a no gun policy. I did tell the DM that I would abide by it as long as they could ensure my safety (Yeah right! ) At least 7 restaurants (of the brand I opened) have been hit inthe past 6 months. Besides, the mommies and their kids might get scared if I had my big ol' 1911 or Ruger GP 100 strapped to my hip. I'm sure my employees would be much better behaved though! Besides, I like the element of suprise. If someone is intent on robbing the restaurant, they will shoot whoever is packing first.



Samurai, thanks for trying out the technique. I know you have extensive martial arts experience and you would have the best opportunity to execute the technique successfully. I may not have been clear on the scenario though.

Say the bad guy has the gun (in his right hand) leveled at your chest or mid section. You sweep from the gun with your right hand while simutaneously yoking him in the throat with your left hand (while stepping into it). I'm sure a palm strike to the nose could also be substituted for the strike to the throat. I'm not sure which would be more effective though.

While I agree that it is important to control the weapon, physical strength becomes an issue. The gun will go off (as you said) and will seriously impede your ability to hold on to it (especially if it is a semi-auto). Even the blast from the cylinder gap in a revolver may burn your hand. Once you let go, all bets are off. I seriously think that some strikes need to be delivered to the assailant that will limit his ability to fight back. We are not all martial arts experts and not all of us are not in the best of shape.

If the gun is pointed higher, it becomes more difficult to simulataneously sweep the gun and yoke the attacker since your arms are crossed up. In that case, the sweep should be performed while turning your body away from the line of fire. At this point, I would agree to try to use a 2 handed hold on the weapon and possibly issue a few elbows with your right arm.

Samurai, I completely agree that disarming techniques should be done in life or death situations only. The problem is that you never know. I fully understand that money can be replaced, but they shot the manager of a restaurant twice in the back and twice in the back of the head. We are dealing with animals here and I am not going to depend on their mercy (if given a chance). Like I said, you need to evaluate the stiuation to see is there is a good chance of disarming the bad guy. If your chances are bad, you sit tight until you are forced to act. If I am about to get herded into a walk-in cooler or freezer, I'm not going to wait to get executed.
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Old June 18, 2008, 10:50 AM   #13
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Shortly after my son finished basic training he found himself facing someone with a gun in a parking lot. The BG made a show of racking the slide as he walked over to him, then my son noticed that there wasn't a mag in the gun. When he pointed the gun at my son's face, he just started laughing, knowing it was unloaded. I guess all his recent force-on-force training helped him keep his cool and be able to think more rationally. He told the guy his gun was unloaded, the guy tried to continue to bluff, then my son swept his hands in opposite directions, one on the barrel and one on the grip. The gun fell to the pavement and he believes he broke at least one of the guy's fingers. The guys started cussing and threatening to call the cops, and my son just walked off laughing. He should have called the cops and probably secured the gun somehow, but I think he did reasonably well under the circumstances.
I sure don't think I would have just walked off. Did he have the mag in his pocket? Could have easily took one in the back if that be the case. I'd have taken that beotch's gun myself. After he wasn't moving anymore.
But that's just me....
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Old June 18, 2008, 02:15 PM   #14
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More important than the technique is your skill with it. there are several disarming techniques out there and if you are really interested you should learn and practice several. My limited experience with martial arts (back in HS I am no mall ninja) was that self defense and especially weapon disarming techniques are not easy to use and there is plenty that can go wrong.

look at the above link RF 11 posted, those guys practice.
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Old June 19, 2008, 02:11 AM   #15
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The chance of survival of disarming an armed attacker is only 50%. The first thing you should do is figure out what the attacker wants and what he is willing to get it. I have been robbed at gun point, had my gun in my pocket, yet I did not shoot. I quickly realized that he only wanted money and really didn't want to hurt me to get it. So I gave it to him. Had I shot the man, I would be in court defending myself as to why I felt it necessary to shoot, or even kill, someone who just wanted money.

If I felt I was in life threatening danger, I would defend myself to the last breath and had no way out. Remember, 50% is not that good of odds to survival.

Try this. Unload your firearm. Give it to a friend. Tell him to pull the trigger before you can even touch it. I will bet you he will win every time. In the game of survival, there are no if's.
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Old June 19, 2008, 08:07 AM   #16
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They have a no gun policy.
Well, that bites.

Quote:
I did tell the DM that I would abide by it as long as they could ensure my safety (Yeah right! )
Yea, that guarantee and a dollar will get ya a cup of coffee.

Quote:
Besides, the mommies and their kids might get scared if I had my big ol' 1911 or Ruger GP 100 strapped to my hip.
Oh, gawd forbid we should offend someone. Ya know, I have a very gentle pit bull, a real baby. I carry a weapon. I'm trained in the use of it and I practice constantly. Keeping a pit bull and going about armed are/should be my RIGHTS, and I'm getting real sick and tired of someone being offended by my lifestyle. If the mess hits the fan, that mommie will be falling over herself thanking you for carrying. Those kids need to grow up learning it's not always a nice world with nice people in it. They need to grow up knowing that some people stand up for what they believe. I'm really tired of being "politically correct". I have rights and beliefs, too - that others should not infringe, just as they expect me to not infringe theirs.

If the area is that bad, carry if you can get away with it (I never said that). If you carry properly, no one will ever know. If something does go down, at least you'll be alive to stand trial.

Off my soapbox.
Quote:
Besides, I like the element of suprise. If someone is intent on robbing the restaurant, they will shoot whoever is packing first.
Or they'll simply go away. There's a jewelery store uptown, and the owner always has a open gun strapped to his waist. It's a classy store. There's never been any trouble there. I operated a small retail business for a couple of years in a bad part of town. I kept a gun on my waist or under the counter. I carried it openly when I made the night deposits. I had two city LEOs and a county LEO all tell me the only reason I hadn't been hit was the perps knew I was packing heat and had the ability and intent to use it.
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Old June 19, 2008, 12:27 PM   #17
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Try this. Unload your firearm. Give it to a friend. Tell him to pull the trigger before you can even touch it.


For gawd sakes use an airsoft, or even a water pistol.
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Old June 20, 2008, 09:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by AdamSean
The chance of survival of disarming an armed attacker is only 50%. The first thing you should do is figure out what the attacker wants and what he is willing to get it. I have been robbed at gun point, had my gun in my pocket, yet I did not shoot. I quickly realized that he only wanted money and really didn't want to hurt me to get it. So I gave it to him. Had I shot the man, I would be in court defending myself as to why I felt it necessary to shoot, or even kill, someone who just wanted money.

If I felt I was in life threatening danger, I would defend myself to the last breath and had no way out. Remember, 50% is not that good of odds to survival.

Try this. Unload your firearm. Give it to a friend. Tell him to pull the trigger before you can even touch it. I will bet you he will win every time. In the game of survival, there are no if's.
Adam,

I'm not trying to be arguementative, but where do you get this 50% - 50% statistic? I'm sure there have been some real nice robbers who shot their victims in the face after they got what they wanted. Do you KNOW what they want? Do you KNOW how far they will go? Unless we are in Sherwood Forrest and the bad guy is in greet tights, I'm going to assume his intentions are bad. He is already robbing me at gun point. The main intention is to survive the ordeal unharmed. In order to ASSURE that, you must disarm the assailant and take control of the situation. I never said that the bad guy has to be killed. If he drops his weapon and ends his attack, then you hold him for police if possible. If he flees, you give them a good description and hopefully a weapon with prints on it. If the bad guy continues to attack, you use ANY force necessary to defend yourself. I work hard and I am a positive member of society. Why should I let this "predator" take what I have worked hard for and possibly kill me? I'm glad you survived your ordeal unharmed. There are no gaurantees that someone robbing me would let me live.

Besides, if I practice disarming techniques and I throw off the robber by feining compliance, it should improve my odds significantly. Try swatting a airsoft gun away from your body from the hands up position while turning your body. It is often said that action beats reaction. You might be surprised that the gun is no longer pointed at you when it goes off... and this is from someone who is EXPECTING you to swat the gun away.
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Old June 20, 2008, 09:29 PM   #19
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Keltyke,

I do carry regardless of the policy. That is the benefit of being a franchisee rather than an employee. I agree about political correctness, but bottom line is money talks and you know what walks. If the mommy sheep don't frequent my establishment because I openly carry, then why open a business? I'm here to make money... not make a statement. Besides, its better that corporate doesn't know so they can't give me heat.

Besides, I don't know where you buy your coffee, but a dollar won't get you a low-fat caramel macciato! (unless my DM's gaurantee is worth about $3)
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Old June 21, 2008, 08:25 PM   #20
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CONCLUSION: Do NOT attempt to disarm an attacker armed with a gun unless you are CERTAIN that you are about to be killed. Even under the best of circumstances, this technique only worked about half the time. And, under the circumstances presented in this hypothetical, I got shot MOST of the time.
A friend and I tried this same thing and we both shot each other almost every time. The few times we didn't get shot instantly, we got shot very soon after. The above quotes first sentence is the best advise on this thread.
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Old June 21, 2008, 10:25 PM   #21
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Gyuakute Waza Disarm

1. The "typical surrender" position should actually be with your hands more out to the sides instead of above your head, if your assailant lets you get away with it.

2. Forget left and right. Using the hand closest to the BG's pistol, rotate your body, as you push the hand with the pistol off you. If you rotate your body, you will reach their hand faster while you simultaneously take yourself out of line of fire.

3. Grip the top and bottom of their gun hand and pull forward (though, again, NOT towards you). This will weaken their arm and move them off balance.

4. Pivot/rotate your body. Bring their hand with you, never sweeping your body. Their pistol will end up pointing towards them, if they can't drop it, and their hand and probably at least trigger finger should be broken. Well executed, this works with knives too. If you practice with a training knife, you can see the possibilities.

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Old June 21, 2008, 10:36 PM   #22
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Oh- if you're trying to "verbally distract", and someone has a firearm pointed at you, avoid saying "hurt". "Please don't hurt me" = no go. "Take the money" = go.

"Don't hurt us" = no go. "Let us go" might be all right.
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Old June 24, 2008, 09:10 PM   #23
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There are a variety of techniques available, most having the similar characteristics of explosive, powerful movement dedicated toward:

1. Diverting the muzzle from your body

2. Attacking either the gun or the gunman

Accomplish the diversion stage by either striking or physically controlling or redirecting the gun or gunman's limb. There is a debate as to with is the better course. The strikers do not fare as well in training intervals.

Accomplish the attack stage, or counter-attack stage if you will, by either physically controlling the gun or delivering strikes to the gunman; or some combination as necessary. There is a debate as to which is the better course. Both sides fare well in training intervals with combinations often seen.

Anyway, they are what they are, which had better be simple, sudden, and violent. The further from that recipe... well, good luck.
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Old June 25, 2008, 02:15 PM   #24
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Like I said, there are plenty of situations where the victim was 100% compliant and subsequently executed in cold blood.
But there are far, far more situations where the victim was compliant and not injured. Fighting back is a sucker bet for most, and IMO should be reserved for those times when you are certain you are going to be injured anyway. As for your technique, I think it better if you sweep with the left and go for the throat with your right (assuming the RH is your stronger) if you are going to do that. Personally if it were me I'd forget the throat and put everything into the gun, either controlling or trying to remove it.
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Old June 26, 2008, 11:29 AM   #25
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Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I know that disarming techniques are dangerous. I just hate being at the mercy of an unknown attacker. The problem with wait and see is it is often too late to do anything after the bad guy shoots you unexpectedly. If he tells you to turn around and marches you to a back room or tells you to get on your knees, what chances do you have at that point?

What I am saying is look for an opportunity (if it presents itself) where you have the best chances of taking control of the situation. For instance, if the gunman is within contact distance of you, you have the opportunity to act. Depending on the distance, you can make a break for it, turn a corner, or find cover. You would have to be reasonably far away to do that though and hope the bad guy isn't a great shot on moving targets.

As for my initial scenario, the surrender position I was talking about was with my hands up and to either side at head level. That way it is closer to my body and presumably the gun. The reason for pushing gun with my right hand is economy of motion (again, this is presuming the gun man is right handed and has the gun either close to centerline or to my right). Sweeping with the left involves bringing your arm down and then out. It is slower and you have less ability to sweep the gun away from your body.

As I mentioned before, the reason for the strike to the throat is that it will give you a huge advantage if the attacker is bigger than you. The throat is highly sensitive and even a decent hit will make it difficult for the bad guy to breathe. If the gunman is stronger, he would probably overpower you in a gun grab situation (without any debilitating strikes). Heck, even an eye gouge is very painful and will hinder an attackers ability to hit you. You are dealing with a much smaller target though so that is why I mentioned the throat.

I guess this is a play it by ear kind of thing and take the opportunity if it arises or becomes necessary. It never hurts to have more tricks in the bag though.
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