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Old June 20, 2008, 09:25 AM   #26
nemoaz
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The alternate way it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed.
Your legal analysis is flawed and shallow. This could easily be regarded as a citizen's arrest or, according to the scumbag's attorney, an illegal detention/false arrest or kidnapping. (Kidnapping usually requires asportation- meaning moving the person.)

Your (the whole thread not the poster in particular) knee jerk reaction to citizen's arrest is probablematic in my view. Citizen's arrest should be encouraged. This is exactly what should be happening in our streets, instead of these video beatings with thousands of people walking by and ignoring the situation.

I think everyone is hung up on the thought of walking up and saying "I'm making a citizen's arrest. Stop in the name of the law!" Those words aren't necessary to initiate a citizen's arrest. Holding someone using force or threat of force (implied or not) is probably a citizen's arrest. If it were not, you'd be committing a crime when you do these things.

Yes, carrying a gun for defense and-- God-forbid-- being forced to either use it for defense or to arrest someone does create some legal liability. Better to put on some birkenstocks and walk around unarmed? You make the choice. In my view. CCW laws, Castle doctrines, defense of property, and citizen's arrest laws all go hand in hand in our efforts to take our country back from the criminals coddled by the left and liberal judges.
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Old June 20, 2008, 11:30 AM   #27
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Your (the whole thread not the poster in particular) knee jerk reaction to citizen's arrest is probablematic in my view. Citizen's arrest should be encouraged. This is exactly what should be happening in our streets, instead of these video beatings with thousands of people walking by and ignoring the situation.

I think everyone is hung up on the thought of walking up and saying "I'm making a citizen's arrest. Stop in the name of the law!" Those words aren't necessary to initiate a citizen's arrest. Holding someone using force or threat of force (implied or not) is probably a citizen's arrest. If it were not, you'd be committing a crime when you do these things.

Yes, carrying a gun for defense and-- God-forbid-- being forced to either use it for defense or to arrest someone does create some legal liability. Better to put on some birkenstocks and walk around unarmed? You make the choice. In my view. CCW laws, Castle doctrines, defense of property, and citizen's arrest laws all go hand in hand in our efforts to take our country back from the criminals coddled by the left and liberal judges.
I disagree with you analysis and though process about citizen's arrest. The average citizen and yes I mean average but that will be covered later can make a citizen's arrest but it would bevery east to screw it up beyond repair. Take the example of pulling gun on a BG and yelling "Stop, you are under arrest". Do you expect the BG to stop and wait patiently until the cops arrive, to hold his hands up or behind his back so the mall ninja can put handcuffs on him. I expect the BG to do exactly what they do when the cops yell stop, to run. What are you going to do if he runs away? If you shoot him you better hope I am not on the jury and I know I will get flamed for that. Let's say you get you ninja handcuffs on him and he runs, what then? As someone else posted this whole thing reeks of Barney Fife.

And to the topic about CCW's. If you are involved in something they are going to ask if you have a CCW to determine if you were legally carrying and that is the end of it. A CCW gives you no more right to claim citizen's arrest, shoot someone or point gun or wave it around than anyone else. People need to learn that by having a ccw and carrying a gun doesn't turn you into a deputy, you remain a private citizen and have less authority than Barney Fife. Go ahead with your citizen's arrenst but you better be right.
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Old June 20, 2008, 02:13 PM   #28
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And to the topic about CCW's. If you are involved in something they are going to ask if you have a CCW to determine if you were legally carrying and that is the end of it. A CCW gives you no more right to claim citizen's arrest, shoot someone or point gun or wave it around than anyone else. People need to learn that by having a ccw and carrying a gun doesn't turn you into a deputy, you remain a private citizen and have less authority than Barney Fife. Go ahead with your citizen's arrenst but you better be right.
Personally, I don't have to worry about citizen's arrest.

And I'm not going to argue with you about the legalities. You can believe me or not. I've got the JD and years of experience prosecuting and defending criminal case in court prior to entering my current position. I don't know what your experience is.

What I'm telling you is that many scenarios that have been mentioned ARE citizen's arrest, even if you don't yell "I'm making a citizen's arrest."
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Old June 20, 2008, 02:26 PM   #29
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So you are saying that if you have a CCW then you should start running around arresting anyone that you think is breaking the law? Since you evidently are an attorney then can you provide us with your contact information so we can call you when we get arrested for shooting someone in the back while they are trying to escape. Are you going to defend us pro-bono?
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Old June 20, 2008, 02:34 PM   #30
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I was under the impression that you cannot legally detain a threat with a gun; perhaps the exclusion being if a criminal broke into your home.

I'm starting to think my CCW is just about worthless; it only allows me to carry in a way that my 2A rights already guarantee...but I have to submit personal info, take a no-brainer test, and pay $50+ to get my (neutered) guaranteed 2A rights.
The purpose of your CCW is to protect yourself and your family from death or grave bodily injury.

Your CCW permit does not make you a cop. If you want to arrest people, then join a police force and go to the police academy.
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Old June 20, 2008, 02:35 PM   #31
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No one said anything about CCW or handcuffs. Stop playing the red herring game. Citizen's arrest has nothing to do with handcuffs or saying "Stop in the name of the law" or a CCW. Like I said, many of the scenarios mentioned are in fact arrests, probably legal but arrests never the less. YOU SAID "it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed." That is an arrest. Just because you are ignorant of the law doesn't change the application of the law. You see a street urchan beating up an old lady, approach with a baseball bat in your hand and hold him until the police arrive. You have probably arrested him. No CCW, no gun, no handcuffs, no yelling "I'm making a citizen's arrest."

No, I will not send you my contact info. I'm not soliciting ANY clients (not currently in a position that allows private clients) and probably am not licensed in your state anyway. You should seek counsel in your local area.
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Old June 20, 2008, 05:34 PM   #32
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No one said anything about CCW or handcuffs. Stop playing the red herring game. Citizen's arrest has nothing to do with handcuffs or saying "Stop in the name of the law" or a CCW. Like I said, many of the scenarios mentioned are in fact arrests, probably legal but arrests never the less. YOU SAID "it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed." That is an arrest. Just because you are ignorant of the law doesn't change the application of the law. You see a street urchan beating up an old lady, approach with a baseball bat in your hand and hold him until the police arrive. You have probably arrested him. No CCW, no gun, no handcuffs, no yelling "I'm making a citizen's arrest."

No, I will not send you my contact info. I'm not soliciting ANY clients (not currently in a position that allows private clients) and probably am not licensed in your state anyway. You should seek counsel in your local area.
I have looked bac through this thread and don't see where I said, implied or inferred that statement. It was said but not by me that I saw.
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Old June 20, 2008, 07:08 PM   #33
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Citizens Arrest

A couple of weeks ago at our local WAL_MART a person with a CCW THOUGHT he saw a crime being commited. He undertakes to detain the alleged BG. Then he makes a really bad mistake . When the guy begins to resist him, both verbally and physically. He gets scared and tells the guy he is a policeman, he then puts his weapon to the guys head. He is lucky he didn't get disarmed at this point. Makes the guy lay down, and is sitting on him with his weapon still at his head when our guys arrive. He was promptly arrested and charged with WANTON ENDANGERMENT 1st, UNLAWFUL IMPRISONMENT, and IMPERSONATING A POLICE OFFICER. He is looking at a maximum of 10 yrs. in prison. The least that will happen, is he will lose his CCW for life, and a civil lawsuit.

Last edited by KYCOP; June 20, 2008 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Didn't finish
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Old June 20, 2008, 07:25 PM   #34
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What an F'n power-trippin' idiot!

I'm really suprised to see what this thread turned into...A red herring arguement about Barney.

Unfortunately, we are now at the point in society where people are afraid of the legal repercussions of helping other people, even to the extent of ignoring those getting violently beat.

My course instructor (ex-lawyer) blatantly said "I am a hypocrite; if I see you getting mugged, I'll turn the other way. If I'm getting mugged, then by all means please help!"

I guess people are more afraid of legal injustices than physical ones.
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Old June 20, 2008, 07:37 PM   #35
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Of course, Bounty Hunters institute a citizens arrest every time they apprehend a criminal.

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Old June 21, 2008, 12:04 AM   #36
nemoaz
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My course instructor (ex-lawyer) blatantly said "I am a hypocrite; if I see you getting mugged, I'll turn the other way. If I'm getting mugged, then by all means please help!"
That is unfortunately what most lawyers will say. The least legal exposure for the client is for him to simply walk away.

I know cops who feel the same way. "Hey, man. I'm off duty. Let the locals or on duty guys deal with it."

PT, sorry for misquoting you. I was confused about who wrote what.

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Then he makes a really bad mistake . When the guy begins to resist him, both verbally and physically. He gets scared and tells the guy he is a policeman, he then puts his weapon to the guys head. He is lucky he didn't get disarmed at this point.
He clearly doesn't need to be carrying.
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Old June 21, 2008, 01:50 AM   #37
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If You Don't Understand what a CCW Is and Isn't, Don't CCW

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The purpose of your CCW is to protect yourself and your family from death or grave bodily injury.
Your CCW permit does not make you a cop. If you want to arrest people, then join a police force and go to the police academy.
Well said. But even that gives a CCW holder some assumption of shooting rights. CCW law only refers to waiver from the Gun Law prohibition against carrying dangerous weapons (if there is one in your state). That's it. It does not bestow any rights or privileges beyond that: including shooting people, or citizen's arrest OR anything else to do with Self-Defense. None of this is mentioned.

As far as Self-Defense: you have the same rights as anyone else - and no other. SD Law doesn't mention guns either, is not about guns, or shooting people either. It's simply not mentioned.Nor is any other tool, method, implement etc. It's not about that. It defines conditions under which a potentially lethal defensive action rises to the level of a Justification for homicide for anyone.

Citizen's Arrest? Same. Whatever the local laws are, they are for anyone, not carriers of guns.

So, you have the right to legally have a certain tool on your person.

And you're just a citizen walking down the street like everybody else.

If you understand that, you are much more likely to do what everyone else does: live your life and if some extremely rare event happens, only defend yourself or anyone else if it is truly the last resort because you are going to die NOW. And you won't likely be running around looking to arrest people, but call the cops : who are completely different in powers and training than you are.
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Old June 21, 2008, 10:41 AM   #38
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+1 Gvf.
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Old June 21, 2008, 11:03 AM   #39
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A couple of weeks ago at our local WAL_MART a person with a CCW THOUGHT he saw a crime being commited. He undertakes to detain the alleged BG. Then he makes a really bad mistake . When the guy begins to resist him, both verbally and physically. He gets scared and tells the guy he is a policeman, he then puts his weapon to the guys head. He is lucky he didn't get disarmed at this point. Makes the guy lay down, and is sitting on him with his weapon still at his head when our guys arrive. He was promptly arrested and charged with WANTON ENDANGERMENT 1st, UNLAWFUL IMPRISONMENT, and IMPERSONATING A POLICE OFFICER. He is looking at a maximum of 10 yrs. in prison. The least that will happen, is he will lose his CCW for life, and a civil lawsuit.
Thanks for the vivid example of the perils of intervening in the "defense" of a third party. I'm not saying I would never come to the aid of a third party, but my inclination would be to stay out of it, get to cover, and call 911.

Here's a scenario. You are in the parking lot at the local strip mall, about to get into your car. You see a man burst out the door of a store, running as fast as he can. A couple seconds later, another man bursts out of the store chasing the first man. The second man has a gun in his hand.

What have you just witnessed? A jealous boyfriend chasing a rival? The shop owner chasing a robber? An undercover cop chasing a suspect?
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Old June 21, 2008, 11:22 AM   #40
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All I can say to this thread is be grateful you guys that live in states that are CCW friendly. In California you have to show "good cause". And no "it's my 2dA right" doesn't cut it. You have to show good cause where your life or family has been threatened. Or your job is one where you need it. IE: transporting large amounts of cash or valuables. I pass every requirement on the list that prevents someone from CCW except the "good cause". I thank God I have not had me or my family in the position to show "good cause". I'm sorry about the rant but for someone to say their CCW is just about worthless I wish I had the opportunity to CCW and be in a legal position to carry the tool(s) necessary to defend my life and my family.
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Old June 22, 2008, 10:14 AM   #41
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NJ's law on citizen's arrest requires the arrester to have witnessed an indictable offense. The arrestee is under no obligation to submit to an order for citizen's arrest, but by clearly asserting "citizen's arrest," the arrester reduces (does not eliminate) liability. It becomes a liability on the arrestee if the arrestee resists arrest or assaults the arrester. The arrester still acts at his own peril and must be willing to defend his actions in court. Both the police, as well as the courts, will be quite curious as to why you initiated a citizen's arrest, and why you didn't use other options (such as contact police or flee the scene). They will also inquire as to your knowledge about the application of law regarding citizen's arrest. As far as drawing a weapon on somebody, as a civilian you are guilty until proven innocent.

The arrester must also use restraints that will not cause harm to the arrestee. The arrester must also transport the arrestee to a magistrate (the law is quite outdated; if it were to happen today, it would be to a county jail). However, I cannot imagine how jail officers will react to a civilian bringing in an arrested individual.

Police departments (and even private security) have specific regulations they have to follow regarding arrest procedure; some are state requirements, some are department requirements. All requirements are in place for a reason; to prevent the police from acting in a "Dirty Harry" fashion. What's to stop an armed citizen trying to make a citizen's arrest from acting in such a way?

A carry permit (whether here or anywhere else) does not give power of arrest. It only gives you the right to carry in public. Using it, whether to defend yourself against an armed threat, brandishing it to scare someone, or drawing it to try to arrest someone, becomes an action that you must be able to defend in court. Assuming that the law will be on your side is foolish.

I think the only reason that citizen's arrest existed in the first place was because of a lack of law enforcement earlier in history. I further think that NJ's current law assumes that the arrester is a former or retired police officer, and that is the only reason that it is not outlawed altogether. Just my opinions, though.

My advice is this--don't try to make a citizen's arrest unless you are willing to accept all consequences for your actions.
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Old June 22, 2008, 04:50 PM   #42
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Take the example of pulling gun on a BG and yelling "Stop, you are under arrest".
Hmmm. I can't remember in all the years I was in LE ever pulling my gun and yelling, "Stop, you are under arrest."

When I pulled my gun, a whole string of expletives left my mouth, usually ending with "Get on the (more expletives) ground right (more expletives) now!" or "Hands up (expletive expletive expletive expletive) or I'll (expletive expletive expletive) shoot you!"

Maybe our sisters in the FBI would yell, "Stop! FBI! You're under arrest," but we sure didn't.

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Old June 23, 2008, 01:19 PM   #43
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This whole debate is why I love Texas. The defense of self, property, third parties and third parties' property is perfectly lawful as long as it's to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary...

Heck you can put a guy down for stealing your car at "nighttime" and not face any criminal charges.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes...00.htm#9.01.00

There isn't a Grand Jury in the State of Texas that would indict a citizen who stopped the criminal actions of a felony suspect by holding him at gunpoint (the equivalent to a "Citizen's Arrest"). Most Texas police officers don't even blink an eye and would be glad for the help (I know am).

Know your state laws and know yourself before acting. Just don't let some innocent die because you are afraid of getting sued. I agree wholeheartedly with the earlier statement that we need to take the country back from the criminals.
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Old June 23, 2008, 01:37 PM   #44
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Up here in Alaska, this is called Private Person Arrest, I have done several while working at the bar. It would also be the same as when a stores loss-prevention department arrests a shoplifter.

Any citizen has the right to detain and apprehend an individual they observe committing a crime. Most of my arrests were for minors trying to get in the bar, the rest were for assault & battery. Almost everyone has cooperated, those who didn't wish they had.

The next step of the PPA is to complete a statement, this will have all of your pertinent info (name, address, phone number, drivers license number); the info of the person being arrested, and detailed account of what happened. It is important not to speculate on this, but give exactly what you saw/heard, not what someone else saw/heard. You have to be willing to testify to everything you put down in writing, and expect for your statement to be challenged by a competant attorney. Often the police that take your suspect will help you with your statement. You need a copy, as does the officer.

Of the 25+ I have arrested or assisted to arrest, only twice have I been subpoenaed (sp?), both times the defendant changed plea so I didn't have to appear.
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Old June 23, 2008, 01:44 PM   #45
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Well said, gvf.

Everyone should re-read gvf's post (#37) over and over. In it, gvf makes a very important point that everyone who does CCW should understand thoroughly.
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Old June 23, 2008, 03:12 PM   #46
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Everyone should re-read gvf's post (#37) over and over. In it, gvf makes a very important point that everyone who does CCW should understand thoroughly.
I agree. This thread started with the OP being disturbed that a CCW was a waste since he couldn't use his gun for a "citizen's arrest". I don't think anyone has argued the point that it can be but haveing a CCW doesn't give you any additional authority to perform CA or personal defense than you would have otherwise. That is a very important detail that should be driven into the head of every CCW holder or average citizen to start with. There are many that think just because they have a CCW or even a notary public seal they all of a sudden become a deputy sheriff. Why else would you want to run around with a Concealed Weapons Permit badge on? But in the same vein there are some that think the same way if they OC even when there is no requirements other than not being a felon.

How many posts have we seen by someone asking if getting their CCW requires them to get involved in a crime they see happening. Simple answer is the same laws that require you to get involved if you don't have a permit.
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Old June 25, 2008, 04:19 PM   #47
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In the UK anyone making a citizens arrest can be arrested on charges of kidnap. Nevermind the severity of the crime the arrested individual commited...
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:07 PM   #48
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Is it only in movies?
I was under the impression that you cannot legally detain a threat with a gun; perhaps the exclusion being if a criminal broke into your home.

I'm starting to think my CCW is just about worthless; it only allows me to carry in a way that my 2A rights already guarantee...but I have to submit personal info, take a no-brainer test, and pay $50+ to get my (neutered) guaranteed 2A rights.
Your gun is to be used in defense of your life, and the life of others against illegitimate aggressions that could end up in death.

This applies in my country and I’m sure it works in USA that way too.

Even if you can arrest someone, if someone threatened me in such a way I had a legitimate right to use my gun against him, do I want him coming back for revenge?

I know many cases where people did just that and they later got killed, hurt or had to move because of the constant harassment by the criminals and their family and friends.

The only situation where I’m not shooting is when the bad guy turns and runs like there’s no tomorrow. Otherwise I’m ending this threat to my life right away.

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Old June 27, 2008, 05:40 PM   #49
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An old fellow that I used to hang around with had been shot, cut beaten and been on the sending end of those many times. How he had never been involved in a fatal altercation is a miracle. Anyway he used to tell me that if you wanted to make sure someone left you alone after a fight you had to cut them and leave them holding their guts in their hands. Otherwise they or thier family would come after you. However if you left them holding their life in their hands it would break them on that bad habit.

I don't know but I do know that he had more experience at that type stuff than anyone else I have ever known so I put faith in what he said. he would not ride in the middle of the seat of a pick-up. He either rode against the door or on the back due to experience.
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Old June 28, 2008, 02:06 AM   #50
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Your Concealed Carry Permit is ONLY for carry for personal self defense. It does not grant you any powers to arrest, detain, question, or otherwise harass another person, UNLESS that person is attempting to do serious bodily harm to you, or kill you or yours.

If you feel the need to arrest someone, please go through the police training necessary in your state and get a badge. That citizens arrest crap is nothing but ammunition for the lawyers who will eat you alive for playing at johnny law.
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