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Old June 14, 2008, 08:16 PM   #1
AutoPistola
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Citizen's arrest - what's the low-down?

Is it only in movies?
I was under the impression that you cannot legally detain a threat with a gun; perhaps the exclusion being if a criminal broke into your home.

I'm starting to think my CCW is just about worthless; it only allows me to carry in a way that my 2A rights already guarantee...but I have to submit personal info, take a no-brainer test, and pay $50+ to get my (neutered) guaranteed 2A rights.:barf:
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Old June 14, 2008, 08:51 PM   #2
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The one time I CA'd someone, I caught a prowler in my neighborhood at about 3:00 am. Bottom line the offence better be in your presence, and I would (and did) get the cops involved ASAP. In my case the guy evaded me, and a good personal/vehicle description got him arrested by the cops who were on their way to meet me to take a report.

I would be "disentangling" your CCW and CA in your mind.
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Old June 14, 2008, 09:39 PM   #3
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My thoughts on CA; If you want to arrest someone go through the police academy.....................
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Old June 14, 2008, 09:46 PM   #4
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(Penal Code Section 837).
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Old June 14, 2008, 09:55 PM   #5
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keep droping between typing a reply and posting, only puts sig.
O well
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Old June 14, 2008, 10:06 PM   #6
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I got woke up to 2 kids ( I say kids but they were 19 & 20) trying to steal my boat about 3am a couple years ago. I walked outside with my Mossberg and told them to get on the ground, they did and I called the sheriff (who is a good friend of mine and we don't have any city police in my town). They stayed there till he showed up and picked them up. I guess the sheriff's department had been looking for them for a while for stealing a bunch of other stuff. If I wasn't good friends with the sheriff I prolly would have just got their plate number called it in as they wouldn't haven gotten too far around here.
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Old June 14, 2008, 10:38 PM   #7
Recon7
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if you f#(& it up you will get charged with kidnapping. imho there are too many lawyers in this world to be doing that stuff.
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Old June 15, 2008, 05:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
My thoughts on CA; If you want to arrest someone go through the police academy.....................
Exactly!

Nothing good comes from an amatuer trying to do a professional's job. There is a difference between "Holding Somebody At Gunpoint" until the LEO's show up and attempting to make a Citizen's Arrest.

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Old June 15, 2008, 06:23 AM   #9
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Holding someone at gunpoint holds the same risk of being sued for illegal detention(I believe this is the actual charge in this situation). When I was a security guard in college we were told not even to stand in the way of anyone as this could cause them to be intimidated and feel detained leading to a lawsuit.
Too many lawyers is right on. Per capita we have about three times as many lawyers as in 1960. It has been a while since I read this stat, but I am pretty sure 3 was the number. It would be nice if law schools would get alittle more selective about who they let in.
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Old June 15, 2008, 08:15 AM   #10
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CA varies from state to state. Check the laws in yours.

If you're that down on CCW, then don't get your license or carry. The class I took contained a lot of good information concerning where I may carry, and when I can shoot. It also had sections on proper gun handling and safety. The test is a "no-brainer" only if you have no brains. Otherwise, it affirms what you know to yourself and to the authorities. Since I had my CWP the first time, the laws in my state had changed a lot and I was glad to be re-educated on them.
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Old June 15, 2008, 09:11 AM   #11
mes228
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Arrest

I know a man that heard a noise on his car port. Only to discover two thieves stealing several hundred dollars worth of his new bicycles. They ran to their open top Jeep car, pitched the bicycles in the back and fled. He jumped in his vehicle and pursued them. The thieves became lost/confused in the subdivision and ended up in a dead end with no escape. Long story short, not knowing if they were armed, he rammed them in the side of the Jeep pushing it over an embankment. He thought they might be armed, exit the vehicle and start shooting , so he rammed them. This took the flee and fight out of them. He made a Citizen arrest and held them until the police arrived. I don't think he was armed. Bottom line is he was in way more trouble than the thieves. And it cost him thousands to to avoid about a dozen charges and law suits. I feel he was justified in doing what he did. However, the system sure didn't.
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Old June 15, 2008, 10:42 AM   #12
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My training in citizen's arrest in California, now decades old, was that there are two differences in the arrest process between the sworn and the unsworn. Sworn personnel have authority to act on infractions and sworn personnel get to say 'Oooops!" The sworn officer who makes an incorrect arrest may suffer departmental discipline but is more or less untouchable in civil court. Blow a citizen's arrest and you might get skinned in civil court. Use of force or a weapon sweetens the pot.
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Old June 15, 2008, 11:04 AM   #13
WIN71
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California Penal Code



837. A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

839. Any person making an arrest may orally summon as many persons
as he deems necessary to aid him therein.

840. An arrest for the commission of a felony may be made on any
day and at any time of the day or night. An arrest for the
commission of a misdemeanor or an infraction cannot be made between
the hours of 10 o'clock p.m. of any day and 6 o'clock a.m. of the
succeeding day, unless:
(1) The arrest is made without a warrant pursuant to Section 836
or 837.
(2) The arrest is made in a public place.
(3) The arrest is made when the person is in custody pursuant to
another lawful arrest.
(4) The arrest is made pursuant to a warrant which, for good cause
shown, directs that it may be served at any time of the day or
night.

841. The person making the arrest must inform the person to be
arrested of the intention to arrest him, of the cause of the arrest,
and the authority to make it, except when the person making the
arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested
is actually engaged in the commission of or an attempt to commit an
offense, or the person to be arrested is pursued immediately after
its commission, or after an escape.
The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is
arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being
arrested.
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Old June 15, 2008, 03:23 PM   #14
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Keltyke, the only reason I'm down on my state CCW is because I recently took a class for the Utah licence; the instructor was a former lawyer and talked to us mostly about laws for 5 hours. A non-resident Utah CCW would grant me more rights than my state one (which is really only good for carrying on person or in car, nothing else). I learned a lot about how fickle the law can be, and honestly lost more respect for the way the system really works.

I'm not saying I want to arrest or detain someone, but it would be a great alternative to shooting someone who's obviously intentful on doing myself or others harm.
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Old June 15, 2008, 05:27 PM   #15
Lawyer Daggit
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Detaining a private person at gun point under circumstances where they can say they were fearful of their life...

I do hope you can make the charge that they are allegedly guilty of stick. Incidentally it had better be a serious felony. Personally I would not use a firearm in respect to a property offence and in most situations I would concentrate on getting a good description and let the professionals deal with it.

Otherwise the person charged with a felony will be you- kidnapping.

In Australia you would also have all manner of problems retaining your firearms licence.
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Old June 15, 2008, 07:47 PM   #16
LostOne
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Its not your place, you aren't the police. Your CCW is for self protection, not to run around thinking your the sheriff.
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Old June 15, 2008, 08:09 PM   #17
hoytinak
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Quote:
Your CCW is for self protection
and your property...depending on state of course
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Old June 15, 2008, 09:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
I learned a lot about how fickle the [CCW] law can be, and honestly lost more respect for the way the system really works.
I have to agree. To actually use your legally-carried weapon opens the door to numerous legal problems, both criminal and civil.

On the other hand, if you really did defend your life, it doesn't matter, does it? Better to live with legal problems than to be dead. Of course, if you properly employ the use of defensive deadly force, the criminal risk should be low. Civil is more of a crap-shoot. Can you say tort reform?
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Old June 16, 2008, 10:50 AM   #19
aroundlsu
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The non-resident Utah permit will not give you more rights than your state issued permit. You must abide by whichever states CCW rules that you happen to be at the time. If your state's permit is restrictive then your Utah permit will be just as restrictive.

Also, on the surface, all the restrictions may sound like a lot but in the end don't really add up to a whole lot in your day to day life. My states rules fill a handbook but about the only time I really seriously need to disarm is when exiting my vehicle on school grounds. "Accidently" breaking any of the other rules will only result in suspension for 30 days or (worst case) revocation of the permit for a year or so. It's a civil matter and no one is going to jail over it.

The important thing is to have the weapon on you when you REALLY need it, have a lawyer on retainer, and worry about the rules and regulations later if you're still breathing.
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Old June 19, 2008, 03:35 PM   #20
Ruthless4christ
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Quote:
Its not your place, you aren't the police. Your CCW is for self protection, not to run around thinking your the sheriff.
After WIN71 showed us that it is our legel right to do so I would be inclined to say you are wrong on that we are not the police. The original porpose of the Police was regular citizins who get paid to uphold the law and carry out justice. Now that the country is federalized and we look at the police more like soldiers we forget what the citizen´s arrest was placed there to remind us. that we the people need to run this country.

Its easy to run to the back of the store and hide, when we know the cops will get here in under three minutes NOW, but it would be good to remember that most of the rest of the world does not have this privalige and good things never last. I think it would be a good thing for people to start stepping up to the plate, preparing for the day when 911 is no longer an option.
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Old June 19, 2008, 03:41 PM   #21
B. Lahey
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All I remember about the citizen's arrest from my criminal law class last year is that you MUST be right. There is no room for "I had a reasonable belief there was a felony in progress" arguments. If your arrest is not totally justified, you are the criminal.

It may vary by state, though, and I am not a lawyer yet.
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Old June 19, 2008, 04:55 PM   #22
travisdj
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I look at it this way, if the offense is not enough for me to shoot them dead I'm not getting involved. CCWs are pretty much worthless. One small infraction and you are still in hot water.
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Old June 20, 2008, 04:15 AM   #23
AutoPistola
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I don't place much trust in LE, 911, etc. I live rurally, but the last time we needed police help (domestic violence) it was in SLC and it took about 25min before they arrived.

BTW I am not about playing sheriff... sheesh! I find it kind of offensive when you jump to such conclusions.
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Old June 20, 2008, 07:29 AM   #24
PT111
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I am not sure what the question about citizen's arrest and CWP/CCW/CHL or whaetver has to with each other. A CCW only provides the legality of being able to carry a weapon in places that you could not legally do so before. It does nothing to give you any more rights as far as protecting yourself or making arrests or playing sheriff.

If you thought that by having a CCW would allow you to make arrests, fight crime and play Dirty Harry or Death Wish then you should be very dissappointed and put your gun away. You go to Wal-Mart and stop a robbery in progress by shooting the BG the only difference between having a permit and not having one is with the permit you won't be charged for having a weapon ilegally. The rest of the laws are the same.
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Old June 20, 2008, 08:50 AM   #25
Keltyke
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You people who want to run around making citizen's arrests scare me more than the perps do. Y'all sound like Gomer on Andy Griffith, "Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest!"

The concept of UNTRAINED private personnel attempting to detain a BG is idiotic at best. The least case scenario is you get yourself shot. The worst case is you get an innocent bystander shot when the BG decides he isn't gonna just lay down and let you arrest him. A lot of people don't have much respect for the uniform/authority of a LEO. How much respect do you think they will show an individual in civilian clothing?

We are NOT trained to act or serve as LEOs. To the poster who said a citizen's arrest is preferable to shooting the guy: If you don't have a 100% valid reason for shooting him, you should have never pulled your weapon.

A CWP is for self protection from an imminent threat ONLY. It doesn't enable or justify the holder to run around acting like some vigilante militia in the old West. Negate the threat, then let the official LEOs take over. Grow up, people, don't play cops and robbers (bang, bang, you're dead) or someone just might be.

Look at this scenario: You come upon someone mugging an old man. You pull your weapon and order him to stop, and you tell him he's under arrest. What's gonna happen? The first thing is he'll look at you, in civilian clothing, and he'll take off running with you chasing him hollering "citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest!" Now that you've made your citizen's arrest move, what'cha now. Keep chasing him? You can't catch him, he's flying like the wind. You CANNOT shoot him. When he's running away from you, there is no imminent threat, and you can't use deadly force to enable a citizen's arrest. You're gonna stand there, out of breath, at a fence he scaled with one jump, and look really DUMB.

What should have happened: Same scenario - "Stop or I'll shoot!" He takes off running. You watch until you are sure he's no longer a threat, then you tend to the old guys injuries and stick around to give a good description to the LEOs.

The alternate way it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed.

Or, he could advance on you with a club in his hand and you have to shoot him dead. No citizen's arrest needed there, either.
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