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Old June 13, 2008, 11:16 AM   #51
Hook686
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I understand your fear. My immediate thought to your explainations, including legal codes, is:

1) Do gangbangers have the right to self defense ?
2) Do gangbangers have the right to walk, or travel, on public property ?
3) Is sitting in wait, with a loaded weapon, essentially an 'Ambush' ?

If I conclude that a person has the behavior pattern of sitting in ambush with a loaded weapon, is then okay for me to speculate that this poses a very real threat to myself and my family ? If I do conclude this, is it then okay for me to take you out before you can execute your ambush ?
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Old June 13, 2008, 11:24 AM   #52
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1) not when committing a felony.
2) not when committing a felony.
3) not when a party is attempting to kill you. There is no difference between waiting for a party in your yard than there is in waiting for them in your living room. If I were sitting in my yard with just my pistol, would that still be an ambush? Does the self defense law say that I only have the right to self defense with certain weapons?

Again:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
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Old June 13, 2008, 03:20 PM   #53
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1 Gangbangers out on the street after 22 arrests by their 17th birthday.
2 Underage illegally carrying weapons
3 Attack a citizen in his own front yard, not one, but three times- police do nothing (must be busy writing speeding tickets)
4 Citizen defends himself IN HIS OWN FRONT YARD FROM ARMED CRIMINAL has to worry about going to prison
5 Gangstas think prison is a joke, for them prison is a revolving door vacation
6 Other gun owners support this kind of thinking
Not my intent to justify the results of our judicial system. Although, I have not seen a better one and I have travelled and lived all over the world.

Many of the points you made above you did not know at the time so it wouldn't have helped your case. Anyway, based on your story you weren't on your own property but in the street. I think even in Florida you would have been sent to prison if you had opened up on those men in your ambush. I think there are some other posts here are worth reading like gvf and keltyke.

Also, if you had killed one or more of them then the gang really would have wanted your blood and you know if somebody wants you dead they will probably get you. What they did later on was just mess with you. Had you killed some of their own then they would have had to "save face" and kill you.

All this because of a guy who yelled and cussed at your wife?:barf: Much better to descalate the situation and leave.

Again, I say you were lucky and if the lesson you learned was that you should have killed any of those gangsters rather than not then you learned a bad lesson and might have to pay for it one day. I hope not.
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Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; June 13, 2008 at 06:17 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old June 13, 2008, 04:04 PM   #54
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I still think I was correct. Those here that feel I was wrong, too bad. I lived, my family lived, and anyone who wasn't there, and more importantly sits in his living room planning "what if" scenarios cannot say what they would have done.

As to whether or not what I did was legal, I point out the fact that I was taken to court, and won. 'nuff said. I'm outta this one.
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Old June 13, 2008, 10:17 PM   #55
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Bottom Line: Defending yourself and family

Well,
I have never seen so many varied opinions in all my life. Divemedic told his story and even though none of you was there but him, (years ago) we all give want to give him advice as to "what WE would do", if that happened to us..............

He did what he thought was best and thats it. Maybe it was stupid to some of you (maybe not) but when you get right down to it, that was his call, period!
I'm getting sick and tired of seeing and reading about all these these scum bags running the country. A bad guy can do what he wants and gets away with it. We can't, because we don't want to be incarcerated and have a record. They don't give a rat's ass about a criminal record or being in prison, (obviously). It is time to stand up and tell them enough is enough.
Have you looked around lately, the bad guys are running the country, the courts, etc. Their liberal lawyer's opinions are the law of the land.
Political Corectness is the order of the day. Man, I really am sick of all this crap. It is time to stand up for your rights and do what you think is best for YOUR situation. When and if it happens to you or your family, to hell with what other folks tell you what is "right". Do what is right for you and forget about the court of public opinon............
Yeah, some of you think I may be a little too out of line here, etc. That's okay, I know what I feel is right for me. That's all that counts, when you get right down to it...................
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Old June 14, 2008, 03:56 AM   #56
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If you don't like the bad guys running the country, want tougher prison times, more prosecution ... I suggest you elect representatives that advocate that and vote for spending money, increasing taxes, to pay for it, or stop wasting money in Iraq and start providing that money for our infastructure.

It takes time and money to secure our streets. Are you willing to pay for it ?
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Old June 14, 2008, 06:10 AM   #57
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There seems to be a bit of conflict in this thread, and I am going to give you all my 2 South African cents on the matter.

Some time ago, I posted a thread here about a Johannesburg mall/shopping centre incident in which I discharged a firearm during a sequence of events that resulted in the capture of a thief who had also beaten up one security guard and (as far as I could tell at the time) mortally stabbed another one.

The thread is here if you want to read it:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=222887

There are some similarities between what happened there and what happened with divemedic:

1) I never asked to be in that position, but I felt compelled to do something. Unfortunately, because I had not been in that situation before, I had to do things according to my best perception of the situation and the circumstances at hand.
2) That perception and those circumstances can never be fully replicated or described, to the point where you as the reader can confidently say what you would have done in those circumstances. It just isn't going to happen, because you weren't there.


However, when discussing the legalities and tactics of the situation objectively and taking into account only the facts, it is possible for us to have a debate here and arrive at a reasonable conclusion with regards to whether the person (divemedic or me) made any mistakes or put himself or another at greater risk because of his actions. This is all done retrospectively, in the comfort of our armchairs of course.

Nonetheless, as regards my situation in the shop, I accept that I could have handled that better, based on suggestions by TFL members who posted in that thread. There is a chance (not a certainty) that if I am in a similar situation sometime in the future, I will heed that advice and modify my response appropriately. Much will depend on the new circumstances, obviously.

As far as divemedic is concerned, I don't think he should have waited outside the house. I think he did it because that was the best approach he could think of at the time. That was the solution that looked the most viable in those circumstances.

However, in my opinion it will be better (should a similar situation occur again) if divemedic does not come out of the house. There have been clear and rational reasons why it is better not to come out of the house.

Similarly, in my situation, there have been clear and rational reasons why I shouldn't have fired a warning shot and chased an armed thief down a few city blocks. After the stabbing I should have closed the distance and fired COM.
And that's what I should do if it happens again. But it all depends whether I recognise the similarities of the situation and decide to apply the lessons I have learned to minimise risk to myself and others.
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Old June 14, 2008, 08:03 AM   #58
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When and if it happens to you or your family, to hell with what other folks tell you what is "right". Do what is right for you and forget about the court of public opinon............
No, the only court you'll need to worry about are the criminal/civil ones you will stand in trying to explain why what you did was right. If you don't convince the judge and jury you were "right", you might end up going away from that precious family for a while.

Breaking the law doesn't solve breaking the law.
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Old June 14, 2008, 10:46 AM   #59
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Hey Keltyke: Read you own quote below!

"It is better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6:............

I agree with that for sure, good advice. By the way, since when is defending yourself and/or family considered breaking the law? If that is the case, we are all in deep doo doo.
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Old June 14, 2008, 10:46 AM   #60
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Those here that feel I was wrong, too bad. I lived, my family lived, and anyone who wasn't there, and more importantly sits in his living room planning "what if" scenarios cannot say what they would have done.

As to whether or not what I did was legal, I point out the fact that I was taken to court, and won. 'nuff said.
The shame of it is, if you had stayed in the house, called the cops and waited for them your family would still be alive and you wouldn't have had to go to court.
Also, this "armchair quarterbacking" charge is incorrect. Many of us including myself have been in situations where if we had chosen to could have escalated them into something bad. Get the emphasis on chosen! As long as I have a choice and divemedic did, I am going away from the problem. That is not just smart but morally correct IMHO. Choosing to "stand your ground" when you could easily and safely leave but rather choose to get into a confrontation where a person may be killed is both wrong and may get you put in prison. Lots of good advice from folks here. Do what you wish but you can't say you weren't warned when you are sitting in court.
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Old June 14, 2008, 11:03 AM   #61
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More On This:

You make a good point Tennesee Gentleman,
However, didn't divemedica say: "that one of the bad guys sitting outside his house in a car had a SKS assault rifle? That could easily wound or kill someone "hiding in the house" if they fired it at the home.
I don't have all the answers, aren't we just getting sick and tired of dirt bags like that getting away with anything they want to do (and we just have to take it)????
Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........
My last comment on this situation folks and thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
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Old June 14, 2008, 11:40 AM   #62
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Guess I am just fed up with it. I read everyday in the paper about things like this and nothing ever gets done. We need to elect people who care about the law abiding citizen far more than the bad guys...........
My last comment on this situation folks and thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
The violent crime rate is at historic lows these last few years, and cops are doing much in many areas to curb violence further. Gang violence in my area and all violent crime is down 14% this year. New York City, another area I'm very familiar with, has 45000 cops, and is now safer than almost all urban areas in the country with a population of over 100,000. It is the safest of all major cities in the US, and ranks somewhere near San Jose, California as far as violent crime. Look at data on violent crime over periods back to the 19th century, and the numbers continually decrease in their general direction, markedly decrease.

The remarks about crime like the above quoted produce a predispostion towards BIG mistakes in SD situations.

We had a case in my area of new CCW who got into a road-argument with a minority in mid-afternoon at a mall - shouting etc. Both were about to park and had stopped or slowed to a crawl. The minority got our of his car and walked towards the CCWs car, both arguing. CCW pulled his gun and shot the "threat", killed him.

There was no "threat", just an argument, no weapon displayed by the victim or possessed by the victim, whose pregnant wife watched from their car as her husband - a professional man - was killed in a routine shopping trip to the mall over a parking-space.

CCW is in prison. But 4 lives - probably more - are destroyed, and one literally. This was an act caused by stero-type, of all kinds: of people, of crime, etc., and its consequent irrational fear and altered judgment.

Better get the facts right. And act on only those: what is really happening NOW. Forget all the bias and predisposition, all the opinions, societal judgments, all the political, self-righteous, victimhood claptrap.

Last edited by gvf; June 15, 2008 at 09:44 AM.
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Old June 14, 2008, 06:50 PM   #63
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Taken from the Lectric law library


LYING IN WAIT - Being in ambush for the purpose of murdering or harming another. A waiting and watching for an opportune time to act, together with a concealment by ambush or some other secret design to take the other person by surprise. The lying in wait need not continue for any particular period of time provided that its duration is such as to show a state of mind equivalent to premeditation or deliberation.

Lying in wait is evidence of deliberation, malice and intention and so is often used as a special circumstance to enhance sentencing in criminal cases.

Pretty much says it.
That said I am very glad to hear that you and your family are none the worse for wear. I know from personal experiance that shootings can take a very long time to get over if ever.
No one died, it was a good ending, Period.
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Old June 15, 2008, 08:09 AM   #64
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By the way, since when is defending yourself and/or family considered breaking the law?
You certainly MAY defend yourself and family, but you must do it within the law. There are times the law allows you to shoot and times it doesn't. Of course, you CAN step outside the law, but if you do, you open yourself to the same legal process your assailants will undergo. You and your family may be separated for a while, and/or incur total financial ruin. As RESPONSIBLE gun-carrying/using citizens, we walk a fine line.

Defend, yes, but do it legally.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:17 AM   #65
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it sounds likes you were looking for a fight
in virginia open carry is legal

when you said they took all your guns makes me want to hide some of mine
a pistol in a ziplock bag in the AC vent
inside of fridge or freezer if you dont have kids
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Old June 27, 2008, 08:00 AM   #66
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1) The local cops are known for being PITAs. I've had a couple of runins. Some are good guys but a lot of them are real jerks.
2) All of us who live here know the situation hasn't improved. Every day there are a couple of stories of thugs shooting each other. The area in Va Beach and lower Newport News is in serious decline.
3) You came away unharmed and your family is unharmed. You accomplished your objectives.

Could it have been done better? Probably. Nobody's perfect. Could you have avoided a lot of grief by walking your wife out of the original argument and sat comfortably in your home with a gun and phone? Probably. Was sitting in ambush with your drunk neighbor who got you in trouble by shooting at a retreating vehicle not the best idea - the drunk neighbor with the ND part, I mean - ? Probably. I object more to the drunk neighbor with a gun shooting at a retreating vehicle more than the ambush. If he hadn't taken the bad shot you wouldn't have been in as much trouble.
Live and learn... but first you gotta live.
Stay safe. Glad you're okay.
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Old July 2, 2008, 10:38 AM   #67
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Thanks for sharing your story. I have no idea what I would have done in your situation, so I refrain from trying to tell you what you did right or wrong. But one more lesson that I learned from your example is to always have a spare firearm that you DON'T give to the police when they want to confiscate all your guns while you're still in danger
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Old July 4, 2008, 08:53 PM   #68
Dihappy
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2 things i find frightening:

You hid and waited for them to return

and

After it was over, you seem convinced that you should have taken him out when you had the chance.


People talk about armchair quarterbacking, but i definitely know what i WOULDNT have done: walked out with a gun/shotgun and laid in wait, and especially run up to someone in a car and point my gun at them.

Im as sure about that as i am sure that i wouldnt have stopped to make myself an omelet.
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Old July 23, 2008, 10:16 AM   #69
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What if you sit by an upstairs bedroom window, tactical rifle of choice by your side not pointing out,and look out the window. Does that constitute 'stalking' ?

Are some of you saying that you should leave your house and say go to a motel because you don't feel safe? Is that really the best way to handle this?

Difficult situation,
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Old July 23, 2008, 12:31 PM   #70
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What if you sit by an upstairs bedroom window, tactical rifle of choice by your side not pointing out,and look out the window. Does that constitute 'stalking' ?
It would not be stalking... stalking is completely different. Well, unless you're looking out the window to eyeball your neighbor, that is.

I wouldn't think it would be unreasonable to keep a look out for trouble if you had a credible reason to expect it. The actions you take if trouble shows up are likely going to have a big influence on the potential difficulties you'll face after the incident is over, though. I believe that gunning them down from the window as they pull up in their cars or try to cross your lawn will be severely frowned upon in many jurisdictions.

Quote:
Are some of you saying that you should leave your house and say go to a motel because you don't feel safe? Is that really the best way to handle this?
Any solution that ends up with you and your family alive and not in prison is a passable one. Different people have different priorities and will likely use different methods to arrive at such an outcome. Some people will stand and fight for their homes, some people will prefer to abandon their homes in search of greater safety, and yet others would have just let the gang member smack their wife and neighbor around because they wanted to avoid conflict altogether (I hope none of the latter category are on this forum, but such people most definitely exist).
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Old July 23, 2008, 01:37 PM   #71
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Old August 5, 2008, 01:36 AM   #72
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Divemedic,

I too lived in VB at the same time as you while serving in the Navy at Dam Neck, 1988-92. Lived near Witchduck Rd. and the Lynnhaven Mall. Pretty much the same situation that happened to you happened to us as well.

We moved into a new Condo type development as a E-5 with dozens of Military family's around us initially. As people were reassigned and moved away alot of the houses didn't sell and were turned into rentals or section 8 housing. We had two apartment complexes on either side of our development that were already seedy places to be after the sun went down and things just spilled over into our neighborhood as the gangs fought it out.

As the crime level increased and the nightly gun shots went off, I started carrying at all times. We built a 6 foot tall privacy fence around the back and side yards as a buffer, and did the same with our immediate neighbors yards as well.

Same sort of scenario developed out front of my home one afternoon, wife came home from work and the neighbor to the left side and the two from across the street were arguing with a thug from the apartments out back. Seems the thug was trying to tear down a section of fence along the side yard that was installed as a utilities easement there by closing off a short cut through our neighborhood into the apartments behind us. My wife (ex now) was trying to mediate the situation and not getting anywhere when I pulled into the driveway.

The Thug at that point tried to take out one of the neighbors with his ball bat that he had been using to destroy the fence with and was chasing my wife away from the downed neighbor when I rounded the corner. Big mistake! He never even saw me coming as I cracked him on the collar bone with the barrel of my .357. He dropped the bat and sat there crying like a baby as I tied his hands up with my belt and had one of the other two neighbor's call the police.

Subsequent 15 minute wait for the police and the ambulance arrived for the downed neighbor. During the making room for the paramedics shuffle of people the Thug takes off running, screaming it's a gang thing and he'll be back with his posse.

Police show up finally and take statements and say they'll check out the apartments during the night and off they go. Downed neighbor has concussion and is off to the hospital. My wife goes off to get his wife from work and take her to the hospital.

The remaining neighbors and I agree to watch out for each other for the next few days. Didn't take but 4 hours for the gang to show up and flash bang the neighbors house (concussion guy's) thank god they were still at the hospital, guess they thought that's where I lived. I had taken the kids and picked up my wife from the hospital and we were out to dinner when that happened. VB Police paged me and advised me not to return home. Great..
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Old August 5, 2008, 02:24 AM   #73
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So wife is scared and won't go home not that I really wanted to take them there anyway so we spend a few nights with friends and finally go home a few days later.

Next morning one of the neighbors across the street's wife gets carjacked in her driveway while loading the kids up for school. Her and the kids weren't hurt but they were told it was in retaliation for what had happend just days previously. That's it my wife's on the phone to her Mom and her and the kids are on a plane to Phoenix before noon, and I spend a couple more nights on our friends couch as a precaution.

Go home and the house has been ransacked, called VB police they make another report and more promises to drive by, Do I have any guns in the house as they want to confiscate them so that I don't escalate the situation, I lied and told them they were all stolen when they broke into the house, ok, ok, make sure to call us if they come back! and off they go!!

Fortunately my guns were all at my friends house less my .357 which was between the seats in my car. Used my Neighbors phone (concussion guy) to call and get the Insurance agent out and make an appointment with a Realtor.

Showed up 2 days later to meet the Insurance agent and the Realtor with about 15 of my armed to the teeth friends and a moving truck . We posted a guard around the house and yard and I finished all of my business with the above mentioned professionals and packed up what ever wasn't broken and left.

I canceled my paperwork to re-up after 12 years and started looking for a job. Found a nice one in Arizona and have been here since. The really sad thing was about a week after I listed the house and moved they killed concussion guy in his driveway when he got home from work.

Tactics wise our house and yard weren't really defensible unless we stayed inside, and I suspect that might be the case in most suburban settings. That wouldn't have proved wise since they had access to flash bang grenades and who knew what else. And yes SKS's were extreemely popular and cheap there then.

That would not be the situation on the ranch now. You can't get anywhere near my place that I or the animals don't see you coming for at least 1/4 mile before you pull up in front of the house. Friends call first before coming over and everyone else gets stopped in their car by my really big dog fluffy and me on the front porch.
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Old August 5, 2008, 03:16 AM   #74
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I think the Republic of Texas has a better idea...
I have no advise.
Could be,I need to let the system handle it till I reach the point that nothing else matters.Once,I stuffed my 97 full of #4 buck with the idea that whatever happened to me didn't matter so long as my wife and daughter were OK.No need to tell the story,it didn't go that far.I was understood,and believed.

In testimony that what is right doesn't matter,my town late 90's a young man was jumped by four young men.He ran.They caught him,had him down,and were kicking the crap out of him.He pulled his Buck folding hunter and killed one.He got 5 years.Our DA said "You brought a knife to a fist fight"
I wonder,if this DA had 4 guys knock her to the ground and begin kicking her if she would feel justified in pulling a Smith out of her purse and shooting till it was over.
See,we are supposed to be sensitive to the idea these poor little gang bangers can be saved by the public school system if we are sensitive and patient enough.You failed to be politically correct,and sometimes,that will cost a lot.But,maybe if you had done anything different,somebody would be dead.
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Old August 5, 2008, 09:21 AM   #75
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Former Navy myself (TM3/SS). You did as good as you could, no one should have the expectation of any better or different. Glad you're here to tell your story. One real life experience shared is equal to 10,000 "well, what if this , or that." I Lived in Charleston SC while in the Navy and had some experiences with thugs, but nothing like this. I've been a cop now since being HONORABLY discharged in 1975. The justice system SUCKS, especially for the law abidding citizens.
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