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Old June 29, 2008, 08:34 PM   #151
mikejonestkd
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La France,

its a true story, i remember it making the news a while back, yes, he shot through the house and it still had enough left to kill his wife.

back on topic - carry something that is comfortable so you won't leave it at home and a get a gun that you are confident with. Caliber is not a primary consideration.
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Old June 29, 2008, 09:10 PM   #152
PT111
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I love guys wearing Glock 17s with a BUG and two reloads in an town where there hasn't been a crime since 1948.
If there hasn't been a crime since 1948 then they are due for one and better carry two BUGs and three reloads.

I see we have a fairly new member if he doesn't know about using the gun to mount the TV dish.
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Old June 29, 2008, 10:14 PM   #153
Chui
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I shoot pretty well, pretty quickly. I have seen shootings and I know a little bit about knives. I certainly don't need to prove myself to you.
The WTC attacks have little to do with self defense. If they bring the war to me I have more than enough "big guns" for the job.

Maybe the people you have sold guns to know something you don't. You don't need a "duty belt" for most carry. You should be glad they are gun owners, rather than condescending toward them. You seem typical of the gun shop commandos that turn people off to "gun people." I have seen hundreds like you- you think you know more than anyone else-regardless of their situation. It is YOU sir, that is the ignorant one.
Gimme a break, dude. Where did I ask you to "prove yourself to me?" Furthermore, I deny any responsibility for your safety so if you're good at what you do then great. You've truly lost me on that... At any rate maybe you live in "Pleasantville" where there is never any personal crime. Some of us don't. And many of the persons I interface with at the gun store live in "hell holes"...

The WTC attacks unmasked much about the mindless tendency of many; namely "it cannot happen here" syndrome... It's very germane to this conversation. It may be a reach for some but depending on your view of what transpired we were totally unprepared. That is the point. Many (on both sides of this little "debate") haven't truly thought about their safety much.

No, they don't "know something I don't". Don't expose yourself, please. Perhaps what you've experienced is EXACTLY what you describe. What I do is something wholly different, but in your omniscience you know ALL about how I approach customers...

And, no, I don't know more than anyone about their situation (only a fool wouldn't ask them now would they prior to assisting them picking out a firearm ). You may need to drop the assuming about something/someone you know precious little about.
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Old June 29, 2008, 10:43 PM   #154
Bill DeShivs
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I live in a nice suburb.
I work at the largest jail/justice complex in the south. It's in Memphis-one of the murder and crime capitals of the country, thank you. I have seen tanks on Main Street (1968), and martial law/National Guard troops several times during riots. Gang thugs are everywhere. I have experienced things you can't imagine. I am COMPLETELY prepared for most anything. I simply carry a .32 as my primary gun. I keep others handy at all times.
Your gun customers, like you, will have to figure it out for themselves. Good equipment makes carrying a big gun more comfortable, but not as comfortable as my .32.
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Old June 30, 2008, 01:37 AM   #155
Chui
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I live in a nice suburb.

I work at the largest jail/justice complex in the south. It's in Memphis-one of the murder and crime capitals of the country, thank you. I have seen tanks on Main Street (1968), and martial law/National Guard troops several times during riots. Gang thugs are everywhere. I have experienced things you can't imagine. I am COMPLETELY prepared for most anything. I simply carry a .32 as my primary gun. I keep others handy at all times.

Your gun customers, like you, will have to figure it out for themselves. Good equipment makes carrying a big gun more comfortable, but not as comfortable as my .32.
I, too, live in a very "nice" suburb but Hades isn't far away at all and it's in every direction you choose to look. Detroit Metro aint no nirvana and there are plenty of places outside of Detroit that are fast becoming dangerous due to the economic climate in the state of Michigan. Sales are up despite the economy; from my very limited perspective it's not the "repeat purchaser" when the economy was better. It's the new purchaser or someone who is not considered a "shooter". CPL classes are also filled 1 to 1.5 months in advance. No matter what they purchase (I only advise them to rent the model or something similar before they purchase) I always inform them that a good belt and holster is required.

We agree - everyone will have to come to his/her own level of preparedness responsibility and comfort.
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Old June 30, 2008, 02:33 AM   #156
.300H&H
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How much does size matter?

There's I think a false sense of security that get's inadvertantly
promoted, when people focus so much on 'caliber size' and 'the percentage of one-stop kills...' The .357 mag. gets a sterling reputation for being a true manstopper ie. a 125gr.hollowpoint .357 gets the reputation of almost being a kind of super bullet. In reality ,however, the .357mag. is far from being a magic bullet - and in a snubbie, it's a bit brutal in regard to recoil and muzzle blast.


What gets overlooked in a lot of discussions about caliber effectiveness - is the reality of self defense. It's easy to demonstrate how one might eliminate a target with the right weapon and caliber, but the very hard part of the equation is being able to demonstrate how someone is going to be able to actually grab a weapon and use it effectively in a self defense situation.


I can shoot targets at the range all day, but in the real world when my attacker has surprised me a bit...and he's only 5 ft. away from me - I need self-defense skills that revolve more around my ability to come up quickly with a concealed weapon rather than the tactics that just revolve around the size of the bullet chambered.


The .25acp and good tactical skills trumps a .357mag. and poor tactical skills. If the bad guy see's the print of my full-size auto or my midsized revolver and takes it away from me - it does me no good. The tiny gun in my pocket might be the best weapon to have. If I can use it with skill, then it might make sense to carry it frequently.


The .25acp is not my nightstand gun, and it's not the gun I take in the great outdoors. The .25acp , however, is the little gun that I am carrying when you think I'm not carrying anything at all. Yeah, when I'm dressed like that cop in short pants on RENO 911, the .25acp is what's in my pocket.
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Old June 30, 2008, 03:34 PM   #157
MLeake
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.300 H&H wrote:

"Yeah, when I'm dressed like that cop in short pants on RENO 911, the .25acp is what's in my pocket."

Um, thanks for that mental image... I hadn't had any nightmares recently...
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Old June 30, 2008, 04:19 PM   #158
GNLaFrance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejonestkd
La France,

its a true story, i remember it making the news a while back, yes, he shot through the house and it still had enough left to kill his wife.
But my question was, why was he mounting the satellite dish inside the house? My TV satellite dish is out in the back yard. I don't think it would work as well if it were in the house.

I think one of two things:

1.) The story got garbled; he was outside and his wife was inside, or

2.) He wasn't trying to mount the dish inside, he was trying to make a hole for the cable, and was too lazy to get out the drill.

I think 2.) makes more sense.
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Old June 30, 2008, 05:34 PM   #159
threegun
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If I ever have to use it, I'm sure I'll wish it was a .45-but I'll damn sure have a gun, without all the hoopla that you guys have to go through.
Why would you wish for a bigger caliber?
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Old June 30, 2008, 05:58 PM   #160
threegun
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No, thta is not true, and we've gone over this before. For you to continue to say so is dishonest. The lifetime chance of using a firearm for defensive purposes is far from "almost never." It is rare, but that then should give you some idea of how truly rare the caliber difference matters, which is "almost never."
Dishonest? Like saying almost never is different than "rare". Like over looking my point that the civilian use of a concealed weapon is extremely low yet folks like us still carry. Like advocating a caliber you know is simply not capable of consistently causing the damage needed to stop an assault especially under the pressure of an armed conflict. Who's being dishonest here David?

By your own words you know a civilian gun use event is "rare". Still you carry. I prepare for both rare and very rare. Seems much less a gap than needing the gun to begin with. You OTOH prepare for rare but not very rare....that seems hypocritical. Especially when the difference is only a few ounces away.
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Old June 30, 2008, 06:19 PM   #161
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I'll carry a bigger gun on a the rare "if "when folks who say "you need one" wear lightning rods on their head

WildthatsrareAlaska TM

I don't need any gun. I chose to carry one on an if basis. I chose to be comfortable when I do it. I carry one based on probablities. My probabilities don't require a 1911....but if Im walking in the park, my probablities would require a shotgun but I will chose a 44....life is all about choices
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Old June 30, 2008, 06:42 PM   #162
David Armstrong
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My question is why don't they carry what they compete with?
Because they realize that there is little, if anything, that will make a difference in a DGU the big gun can do that the smaller gun won't also do.
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I just refuse to buy into the "I cannot conceal a mid-size or full-size pistol" for most people.
Again, so what? For most it has nothing to do with "I cannot" and everything to do with "why should I". I carried an N-frame S&W for quite a while, and a 1911 for a long time. I can conceal them just fine if I want to carry them. But I don't. Most people don't. Most people are quite comfortable carrying a gun that will adequately serve their needs, and see no need to discomfort themselves for something that is rarer in their life than being struck by lightening.
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But when those circumstances arrive I'm under no illusion about my ability to hit very well and quickly with it as compared to any mid-sized semiautomatic pistol.
It's nice that you recognize your own limitations. However, once again, it is not about comparison, it is about what is needed to do the job.
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It's pathetic, but there it is. Modern-day Americans - Wimpus Americanus.
What is perhaps more pathetic is this idea you have that unless everyone follows your dictates and dresses how you want them to and carries what you want them to they are somehow less of a man. Sounds a whole lot like you have a number of unresolved issues, and the concerns for a big gun might be a symptom of them.
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Old June 30, 2008, 07:02 PM   #163
David Armstrong
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Dishonest? Like saying almost never is different than "rare".
Yes, dishonest. And "rare" is quite different than almost never, at least in the context of DGU incidents. 1 in 200 is rare, 1 in 2,000,000,000 is almost never.
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Like over looking my point that the civilian use of a concealed weapon is extremely low yet folks like us still carry.
Didn't overlook at at all. In fact, I addressed it directly by pointing out that the lifetime chance of a DGU was very different (much higher probability) than the likelihood of caliber making a difference in the outcome.
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Like advocating a caliber you know is simply not capable of consistently causing the damage needed to stop an assault especially under the pressure of an armed conflict.
Once again you are making things up. I have not advocated any such thing. I have said that this nonsense about all the damage needed to stop an assault is just that, nonsense.
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Who's being dishonest here David?
Uh, you. That is what I keep pointing out.
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By your own words you know a civilian gun use event is "rare". Still you carry.
Yes. I also know that deadly car wrecks are also rare, but I continue to drive.
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Seems much less a gap than needing the gun to begin with.
Yeah, I know. We've discussed this apparent inability of you to understand basic concepts of probability and relative likelihoods of occurrence before. That statement shows that you haven't changed in that regard.
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You OTOH prepare for rare but not very rare....that seems hypocritical. Especially when the difference is only a few ounces away.
LOL!! This from a man who admits to carrying what many consider a compromise gun in a compromise caliber! The same could be said of you, my friend. FWIW I'd suggest there is a much greater difference in ounces between my Beretta 21 or my Airweight Smith and say, a loaded Glock 23, and a loaded Glock 23 and a Glock 22, or a Glock 21. Gosh, how hypocritical of you!
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Old June 30, 2008, 07:06 PM   #164
PT111
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I'll carry a bigger gun on a the rare "if "when folks who say "you need one" wear lightning rods on their head
I have never actually needed my pistol but still carry a P3AT. However I have been hit by lightning 4 times but don't wear a lightning rod. Maybe I need to examine my priorities.
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Old June 30, 2008, 07:32 PM   #165
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I carried a Hi-Standard .22Mag double-derringer for a few years. I know fellers that have .25acp semi's they sometimes carry. but a .32acp isn't much larger and has more 'punch'. that's what I have now along with a Mak. both I practice with every so often, but not as often as I'd like (or likely need to).
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Old June 30, 2008, 07:53 PM   #166
Capt Charlie
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It's hard to believe that this thread generated 165 posts, but then, caliber wars appear to be never-ending anyhow .

At any rate, it's been going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush for some time now, and now it's starting... just starting, mind you, to take a downward turn.

All threads have a life span, and this one's bordering on geriatric. Still, at 165 posts, I have to hand it to you guys for keeping it relatively civil. So, let's say good night to this one while we're still on the high road, and let it be remembered as one of the few this size that remained so .

Closed.
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