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Old June 27, 2008, 04:45 PM   #126
David Armstrong
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I'd wager that you are correct. Of course I'd also wager the maximum and minimum BUGs are identical for most attendees.
I don't know if I'd agree. While the 2" snub is the predominant weapon there is usually a fair cross-section of others.

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And what does this prove .....
It proves exactly what the quoted material addressed, that there is a market for this type of training. Sorry if that zoomed right over your head while you were ranting about other stuff with no relevance.
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Old June 27, 2008, 04:57 PM   #127
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"Almost never" is the same thing that can be said for how often civilians will need a concealed weapon.
No, thta is not true, and we've gone over this before. For you to continue to say so is dishonest. The lifetime chance of using a firearm for defensive purposes is far from "almost never." It is rare, but that then should give you some idea of how truly rare the caliber difference matters, which is "almost never."
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For many they prepare for the rare need only to fall short in choosing which caliber to carry.
Again, it is a matter of compromise. You have compromised in your chice of carry, others may consider different isues and come to different compromises.
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Against a determined attacker a mouse simply lacks what it takes to stop the attack.
As do most handguns, which is OK because so few BGs fit into that category.
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Not a single one of you pro mouse gun guys would choose that weapon if you knew in advance that you would face a determined attacker and only had handguns to choose from.
When you anti-small gun folks all start carrying around N-Frame Smiths with 6" tubes in .44 Magnum caliber, its just so much hot air. You are just desperately trying to justify YOUR choice in spite of the history of failure to stop incidents present in the .40 caliber, and the .45, and the 9mm, and so on.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:04 PM   #128
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I understand there are BUG classes, but not .22/.25 acp classes per se.
True, just as there are not .38 classes per se, or 9mm classes per se and so on.
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My preferred BUG is a Kahr PM9, but it has considerable capabilities above my .22 revolver, so application and expectations of each is going to vary.
Exactly, and that is the key, IMO. BUGs usually dictate different tactics and applications thaan full size service guns. Revolvers usually dictate different tactics and applications than do autoloaders. .22 rounds can also dictate different tactics or applications than larger calibers. But to ignore all the evidence of the successful use of mouseguns for personal defense over the years, as some here are trying to do, is just ludicrous, IMO.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:13 PM   #129
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You see, some of us have already "been there, done that" with the big guns, and actually made a conscious decision that a small gun would be our primary weapon.
Excellent point, Bill, and one I've noticed over the years. Given a choice, the more experienced shooters seem to gravitate to the smaller guns, while those with the least experience gravitate to the bigger guns. Certainly there are a number of exceptions, but that is a dynamic that seems to have held true for at least the 30 years I've been doing this stuff.
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My pocket gun is always there to get me out of a fix. I'm very confident I can do the job with it.
I think that might be a key difference in the thinking, Bill. Some seem to have confidence in themselves, others seem to place their confidence in their equipment, and seem to feel they can't accomplish the task without that particualr equipment.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:29 PM   #130
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Funny, when I got my CCW in NY way back in the 80s, it was always 1911s or P7s, and occasional Model 19 or 28...

Then it slowly wended its way to Browning High Powers, Model 60s...then a TPH....or a baby Browning

Now its all the way back up to a Seecamp, although I gaze lustfully at NAA .22 mags....

Must be I have more confidence in my ability and technique, don't need a big gun anymore or a substitute thereof....


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PS....the last time I drew down with the Seecamp it was just as I alwys practice....center of face Screw that center of mass crap.....
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Old June 27, 2008, 07:35 PM   #131
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RFK's killer used a .22.
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Old June 27, 2008, 10:17 PM   #132
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Chui, thanks for your response. I agree with most of your last post.

1. If the BG is armed with a firearm then immobilizing him pales into insignificance. In that scenario, COM and head shots are the only thing that makes sense.

2. When the SHTF, we will revert to what we have trained unconsciously. I guess that's why they call it training.

What I was getting at in my original post, and explained very poorly I might add, is a situation in which the BG is holding a knife or some other weapon that requires proximity to be of use. If the BG is closing, COM hits with a mousegun may not slow him quickly enough to prevent serious or life-threatening injuries to you. That is why I asked whether a change of tactics (necessitating, of course, a change in training) might be useful to consider. Several folks with a medical background have advised that, while an gunshot injury from a small caliber weapon to the hip would be painful, in their opinion, it would not be incapacitating or injure the BG sufficiently to consider the tactic as an alternative to COM shots. That's good enough for me until and unless someone with greater knowledge chimes in with a contrary opinion.
If a goblin is rapidly closing with a knife you have few options other than "surgical" speed shooting while simultaneously moving off his line of motion if possible.

There is a website (I cannot for the life of me recall it now but the google search of "NDIA, weapons symposium" should get you close) in which they discuss lethality of small arms and CNS shots are not common and neither are head shots in close proximity fighting. Multiple hits center of mass seems to be "the norm". The mechanism of death is rapid blood loss.

Within 20 feet or so it's unlikely that you'd be able to successfully draw, move and shoot without getting cut which places you in the "oh ****, I've GOT to stop the bleeding" category. I'm a bit spooked at the concept of a knife entering a confrontation (as many people are) and if I cannot "beat feet" getting rapid, solid hits in the upper torso MAY get the job done without me bleeding. Iff the threat is coming slowly enough or from far enough away the initial target would be upper torso, if he slowed but was still coming then I, too, would think, "PELVIC GIRDLE". It simply would not be my first choice and Nature has seemed to program us to strike towards head and torso (which is probably why when startled we bring our hands up to cover our face...) Interesting subject.
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Old June 27, 2008, 10:23 PM   #133
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Some seem to have confidence in themselves, others seem to place their confidence in their equipment, and seem to feel they can't accomplish the task without that particualr equipment...
Would you strap that "rat stinger" on your hip if you knew that you'd have to use it TONIGHT??? H3ll no, you wouldn't.

You can "philosophize" with vague Freud (fraud?) references but you and I know damned well that you hit better with a larger framed gun than a Kel-Tec P3AT. If that isn't the case it would be all the rage in IPSC, IDPA and advocated by all armed professionals the world over. Here's a hint: They don't. And if you KNEW that the likelyhood was extremely high that you'd have to actually use whatever you carried you'd probably choose something a bit better than a BACKUP Gun - that is what they are called for a reason. Yes, it's better than nothing, but since when is "nothing" an option??
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Last edited by Chui; June 27, 2008 at 11:28 PM.
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Old June 27, 2008, 11:38 PM   #134
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There is really only one reason I could think of that would justify a .22LR as primary: it's all the shooter can handle.
Extremely good point. My Pt-22 was bought with the wife in mind. Being a tip-up made it easy to load without having to rack the slide. Alas, even the simplicity of this gun was too much for the wife's destroyed hands. My thought was "better than no gun" as has been stated. Should someone try to shame me to my face in that I was wrong in thinking I could trust my wife's life to a "mere mousegun," I'd slap him silly.
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Old June 28, 2008, 01:03 AM   #135
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Chui-
Do you live somewhere that has zombies?
As I said before- anyone who keeps coming after being shot at (or shot) is obviously insane, and nothing besides a CNS shot would put them down immediately.
Apparently, you are spooked by more than knives-if you think a crazed assassin bent on your destruction (at the cost of his own life) is after you.
Yes, we ALL realize that a bigger gun is better. We simply no longer feel the need to carry a big gun. We would rather be comfortable and go about our lives armed. You carry your big "rig" all you want. One day you just might say, "You know, those old guys were on to something."
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Old June 28, 2008, 02:05 AM   #136
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Quite a few bad guys have been known to carry mouseguns. A lot of ugly street crimes/assaults have been carried out with little .22/.25acps. One of the most important aspects of the mousegun, is its concealability. In a self-defense situation, its extreme concealability is likewise the main attribute of its effectiveness.


The range is going to be very close ie. less than 5ft - and maybe less than 1ft. away. Think about 7 shots from a .22 delivered into the torso at a range of about 2ft. Maybe they'll survive? Bullet failure can occur with larger calibres too ie. a .357 mag at close range might miss a vital spot, not open up...and could also be problematic to control via blast/recoil.


There are factual stories of soldiers on the battlefield having
.50cal. rounds go through them...but still living to effectively fight on quite a bit. There's no 'magic bullet.' I'm not saying that the .22/.25acp is the best round - but I would say it can be quite effective. Personally, I prefer a .38, but there are times when a smaller mousegun...is nice to have too. It's not just better than nothing - but a lot better than nothing.
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Old June 28, 2008, 08:18 AM   #137
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In our local paper this morning is an article about a woman getting life in prison fro killing her husband with a .22 pistol. I just posted the link for verification.

Also remember that the little 4 year old girl that used her grandmothers .32 to put a bullet clean through herself. Last I hear she is doing fine.

Mouseguns can and do kill. I don't think anyone who says that they prefer a box of rocks to a mousegun is willing to back that up with being shot by one.

http://www.scnow.com/scp/news/local/...y_murder/9855/
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Old June 28, 2008, 09:10 AM   #138
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And if you KNEW that the likelyhood was extremely high that you'd have to actually use whatever you carried you'd probably choose something a bit better than a BACKUP Gun - that is what they are called for a reason. Yes, it's better than nothing, but since when is "nothing" an option??
Unless you're active military in a combat zone or law enforcement, the vast likelihood is that you are not going to be confronted with a life-or-death armed response situation. If in fact you KNEW you were going to be in such a situation, you would be a fool not to be equipped with a vest and long gun at a minimum. Oh, but that's not practical to carry such equipment in your daily trips to the store, back and forth to work, etc. Even the most forthright advocates of service-size weapons here are making a COMPROMISE. Those of us who have been carrying off duty, or as CCW for 20+ years know that unless we're someplace we really shouldn't be, the likelihood of encountering a crazed killer hopped up on PCP is close to zero. For many, carrying concealed is just a little insurance in case you actually do hit the lottery and encounter a really bad situation.

I've interrogated or otherwise interviewed violent offenders for a long time, and the almost universal response to having guns pointed at them and/or fired at them is to leave if possible or take cover if they can't reasonably get away , due to volume of fire. They may return fire while running, or attempt to return fire from cover, but none has ever advanced into oncoming fire, and none has ever made mention of caliber or scoffed at little guns: they just know they are being shot at, and want to get away from it.
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Old June 28, 2008, 09:58 AM   #139
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Old June 28, 2008, 10:25 AM   #140
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Yes, we ALL realize that a bigger gun is better. We simply no longer feel the need to carry a big gun. We would rather be comfortable and go about our lives armed. You carry your big "rig" all you want. One day you just might say, "You know, those old guys were on to something."
Comfort...Im all about that If bigger is better I'll grab my M1A

Plus 1 billion

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PS I put the 44 away and now carry a 38 S&W Webley in the glove box, simply so when confronted by a "goblin" (tee hee, how cute) I can go into my Michael Caine mode and scream FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRR.

I can't afford a 455
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Old June 28, 2008, 10:46 AM   #141
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And if you KNEW that the likelyhood was extremely high that you'd have to actually use whatever you carried you'd probably choose something a bit better than a BACKUP Gun - that is what they are called for a reason. Yes, it's better than nothing, but since when is "nothing" an option??
I would do my darnest to avoid that situation. If I couldn't then I would rely on more than just one .40 caliber for protection.
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Old June 28, 2008, 10:48 AM   #142
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I often carry a Beretta 21 25auto, with a MecGar mag that holds 9 rounds, giving me a total of 10. It is reliable, and can rapid fire all 10 rounds in a very short period of time. If I ever have to use it, the bad guy will not know I have it till it is in his face, and all 10 are coming at him. After that, he better be watching for MY big pocket knife.
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Old June 28, 2008, 02:44 PM   #143
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Would you strap that "rat stinger" on your hip if you knew that you'd have to use it TONIGHT??? H3ll no, you wouldn't.
If I knew I was going to have to use it tonight, I (A): wouldn’t strap on any handgun as a first choice; and (B): wouldn’t go where I know I was going to have to use it. If I knew that I was going to go about my usual activities for the day, yes, I would (and frequently do) grab a small gun, often a .22, and feel quite comfortable with my ability to handle whatever is likely to pop up.
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You can "philosophize" with vague Freud (fraud?) references but you and I know damned well that you hit better with a larger framed gun than a Kel-Tec P3AT.
So what? That is the issue. How much “better” do you need to hit? Will the BG leave you alone faster if you hit him better? Not likely.
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If that isn't the case it would be all the rage in IPSC, IDPA and advocated by all armed professionals the world over.
You know, that might be a pretty good example. I don’t know very many IPSC and IDPA folks that use their competition guns for carry. That might be because so many folks realize there is a difference between what is needed to score lots of points in a game and what is adequate for DGU incidents. In fact, IDPA developed a whole subcategory of the game jsut for BUGs due to popular request. And there are a whole lot of armed professionals that carry small guns the world over in various situations.
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And if you KNEW that the likelyhood was extremely high that you'd have to actually use whatever you carried you'd probably choose something a bit better than a BACKUP Gun
But that is not the case. Reality is that the likelihood is extremely high that you WILL NOT have to use what you are actually carrying. And that is the difference. Professionals tend to base decisions on probabilities, amateurs tend to base decisions on possibilities.
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Old June 29, 2008, 11:02 AM   #144
Chui
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Chui-
Do you live somewhere that has zombies?


"28 Days Later" and "28 Weeks Later" type? One would like to think no. Check your newspaper and CNN, however, and they mysteriously appear (at least in major cities and the surrounding suburbs, thereof).

Question: Do you think the bastards who organized, planned and executed the OKC bombing, WTC I, Columbine, September 11th, VaTech, etc. as zombies? Did you FULLY EXPECT ANYTHING OF THE MAGNITUDE OF WTC II TO OCCUR IN THE USA IN YOUR LIFETIME? If you think or answer, "no", then you're in the norm. But they happened. And more will come.

As I said before - anyone who keeps coming after being shot at (or shot) is obviously insane, and nothing besides a CNS shot would put them down immediately.

Apparently, you cannot shoot quickly or ever witnessed a shooting. It happens very quickly and in the thread aboubt being shot some report they did not feel a lot of pain immediately. Should be a lesson in that for you...

Apparently, you are spooked by more than knives - if you think a crazed assassin bent on your destruction (at the cost of his own life) is after you.
Yes, we ALL realize that a bigger gun is better. We simply no longer feel the need to carry a big gun. We would rather be comfortable and go about our lives armed. You carry your big "rig" all you want. One day you just might say, "You know, those old guys were on to something."


"Spooked" would be an inoperative word. "Concerned" would be a much better descriptor. You pull a knife in a quarrel and you're oh, so damned close to being shot until you drop it... You see, I know what a knife can do as I've trained a bit to use them. I've also seen first hand what they can do and I want no part of that and if you're wise you'd concur.

It's good to see that you DO recognize that what you carry is less than ideal. I wasn't aware of this by reading many posts here. "Comfort" is relative. What one laughs at crushes another. I'm quite comfortable with what I carry daily and I'm extremely comfortable and proficient with it's use if it comes to it.

The only time I'll switch to something very small and more difficult to fight with will be when I can no longer carry what I do with any comfort. As long as I'm able I will go no smaller than a P30, Glock 19 or M&P9.

You know, [IDPA] might be a pretty good example. I don’t know very many IPSC and IDPA folks that use their competition guns for carry. That might be because so many folks realize there is a difference between what is needed to score lots of points in a game and what is adequate for DGU incidents. In fact, IDPA developed a whole subcategory of the game just for BUGs due to popular request. And there are a whole lot of armed professionals that carry small guns the world over in various situations.

Absolutely. They KNOW that they hit better with full-size pistols. My question is why don't they carry what they compete with? The same with those who show up at Defensive Shooting Classes with firearms they'll never have on them... Why? Several reasons: they aren't comfortable shooting over 700 rounds or more, obviously; they are SLOW to reload and they are VERY DIFFICULT to hit well with at speed (and any distance). I'd like to take several BUG classes, drills and shoot a few BUG IDPA practices & matches before I'd feel comfortable with one.

Admittedly, there are circumstances where a 340PD would be well worth having. But when those circumstances arrive I'm under no illusion about my ability to hit very well and quickly with it as compared to any mid-sized semiautomatic pistol. So being aware of one's limitations (I'm under no illusion that adherents of "micropistols" and J-Frames as primary feel that they can shoot as well with, say, a Glock 17, M&P9, 1911, P226...).

I just refuse to buy into the "I cannot conceal a mid-size or full-size pistol" for most people. Why? I work at a gunstore as a hobby (they're close friends of mine) and when I sell a pistol no more than 5% take the advice to purchase a "gun belt" and a decent holster. They wear whatever thin belt they have, they want the cheap nylon holsters and they aren't willing to alter their dress to accomodate the pistol or revolver. Many are not open to even discuss altering their dress. It's pathetic, but there it is. Modern-day Americans - Wimpus Americanus. So my vociferous defense of nothing less than mid-size and irreverence for the "comfortable" argument is based upon about 100 cases of pure ignorance. That's not to say that anyone participating in this online conversation fits that bill but statistics will say that some here have not tried good equipment to see if it fits them well. You should.
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Old June 29, 2008, 01:03 PM   #145
Bill DeShivs
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Chui
I shoot pretty well, pretty quickly. I have seen shootings and I know a little bit about knives. I certainly don't need to prove myself to you.
The WTC attacks have little to do with self defense. If they bring the war to me I have more than enough "big guns" for the job.
Maybe the people you have sold guns to know something you don't. You don't need a "duty belt" for most carry. You should be glad they are gun owners, rather than condescending toward them. You seem typical of the gun shop commandos that turn people off to "gun people." I have seen hundreds like you- you think you know more than anyone else-regardless of their situation. It is YOU sir, that is the ignorant one.
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Old June 29, 2008, 01:52 PM   #146
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.22 over the .25.

.22WMR over the .22LR.

NAA mini-magnum revolver in .22WMR by far over the .22LR mini-revolver.

.22WMR as primary and only SD weapon over .22LR or .25ACP. You'll always carry it if push comes to shove..

Of course, I prefer a snub in .38+P, or a 9, but I think .22WMR is adequate. Just learn to shoot it accurately.

I refuse to carry a large handgun concealed. Carry for me, by choice, is in a front pocket only. The chances of justifiably needing to display or use the weapon, for the average citizen in relatively 'good' surrounds, is so 'miniscule' as to justify carrying a .22LR, or even .25ACP, if you are so inclined, and nothing else.
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Old June 29, 2008, 02:02 PM   #147
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Wildalaska Funny, when I got my CCW in NY way back in the 80s, it was always 1911s or P7s, and occasional Model 19 or 28...

Then it slowly wended its way to Browning High Powers, Model 60s...then a TPH....or a baby Browning

Now its all the way back up to a Seecamp, although I gaze lustfully at NAA .22 mags....

Must be I have more confidence in my ability and technique, don't need a big gun anymore or a substitute thereof....


WildcanishootyouinthefaceAlaska ™

PS....the last time I drew down with the Seecamp it was just as I alwys practice....center of face Screw that center of mass crap.....
2008-06-27 03:13
I love my NAA mini-mag. Don't count on it, though, for defense purposes beyond 3-7 yards, if that much, unless you practice thoroughly with it. Wonderful gun!

My advise is to get that over the .22LR version-don't even bother with that. If any indication, check gello tests:

.22LR
http://brassfetcher.com/22minis.html

.22WMR
http://brassfetcher.com/NAAminiRevolver22Magnum.html
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Old June 29, 2008, 07:59 PM   #148
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Modern-day Americans - Wimpus Americanus.
As opposed to internet Rambois Commandonenis

I love guys wearing Glock 17s with a BUG and two reloads in an town where there hasn't been a crime since 1948.

Bill said the rest.


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Old June 29, 2008, 08:22 PM   #149
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WildicarryagentlemansgunAlaska TM
So do I. A deep blue-black Browning HP with highly figured walnut grips handcrafted by a Norwegian wood master. It's comfortable to carry so I carry it. Maybe when I get old and lumpy it will be harder to carry, but for now it's fine.
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Old June 29, 2008, 08:29 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Keltyke
And of course, there's the story of a wife who was killed by a bullet fired from her husband's .22 while he was using it to drill a hole (that's right!) for mounting a TV dish to the wall. Went through the inside wall and outside siding - killed her dead. One shot.
I'm not suggesting you made this up, but I tend to be very skeptical of stories like this. In this case, I have a reason to be suspicious: Why was he mounting a satellite dish inside the house? Or was he outside and she was inside?
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