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Old June 25, 2008, 01:23 PM   #101
David Armstrong
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Uh-huh. Who offers those tactical courses in .22/.25acp self defense? I would be glad to take it!
They are usually part of a broader BUG-type of class, of which there are many. Also, many instructors allow the smaller calibers into their main handgun class.

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Heck, I have to wonder why there aren't any such courses! After all, there would apparently be a market...
IIRC, the BUG class (maximum .38 2")at a major LE convention always gets a waiting list.
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Old June 25, 2008, 03:30 PM   #102
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The law of supply and demand is 99.999 percent law then......because until your post I had not heard of another.
It is somewhat related to the supply/demand curve but the pricing of very few items is based strictly on it. Supply/demand actually only works properly in a true competetive environment and the only one in the US used to be agriculture. Now that the small farmer has been bought out that no longer applies.

Any good marketing person will look at the market at what people are willing to pay for an item and adjust their production to that market which is somewhat following the demand. The main thing to remember is that selling price has no real bearing on manufacturing cost. For instance several years ago I went shopping for a new TV. GE at that time had three models that I was looking at. The difference between the three was the price and the features on the remote control. The difference between each one was $35 and the price of the remotes by themselves ranged from $20 to $40 so the maximum difference between the three remotes was $20 but $75 between the TV's. I found out that all three TV's were the exact same and the only difference was the remote which would work on any of the three. Therefore by buying the higher priced remote individually and the cheaper TV I could save $35 and have an extra remote. However the dealer told me that the higer priced TV was the best seller by far.

If Hi-Point were to double the price of their pistols they would be much better received and sales would probably drop only a little. The Taurus is similar and if Glock would have introduced their guns at half the price they presently are XD would be ruling the market. Is a Seecamp really worth 3 times as much as a LCP?
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Old June 25, 2008, 06:01 PM   #103
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You don't want a weapon that the perp can see and try to rob from you.


Your BUG/Mousegun is thus your primary civilian weapon. Can you use it effectively? So what if you can hit bullseyes at 25yds. at the range with a Glock; can you in a high adrenalin frightening moment, pull out a mousegun and use it reliably against a perp. who is less than 5ft. away...against a perp who might already have a hand on you...or have knocked you down?


The mousegun is designed to save your bacon. It's not a range gun or a gun to be used in a 'gunfight.' It's designed instead for the self defense situations a civilian is most likely to encounter in public. Its deep concealment is a virtue. Its controllability is a virtue. It lacks firepower - but it has capacity and it's designed for close quarters use.
Bwahahahahaha!

What utter hilarity! Mousegun is designed to "save your bacon" not to be "used in a gunfight"...

That'll look damned good on a T-shirt!
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Old June 25, 2008, 06:03 PM   #104
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"IIRC, the BUG class (maximum .38 2")at a major LE convention always gets a waiting list."

I'd wager that you are correct. Of course I'd also wager the maximum and minimum BUGs are identical for most attendees.

---

.300,
If I understand you correctly you are arguing that because of the realities of violent attacks smaller pistols of smaller calibers are preferable to larger ones? As in it would be better in-fight to produce a Seecamp .32 acp than a 1911A1 .45acp. Is that correct?
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Old June 25, 2008, 06:03 PM   #105
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The BUG class (maximum .38 2")at a major LE convention always gets a waiting list.
And what does this prove outside of the fact that young, healthy supposedly gun savvy guys are doing something odd if they rely upon Hel-Tecs as their primary when off duty? Hell, I know cops who don't carry off duty...
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Old June 25, 2008, 07:32 PM   #106
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What many in this argument seem unable or unwilling to understand is that the greater effectiveness of the larger caliber is almost never a factor in the outcome of the fight. It is nice to have, but not really necessary.
"Almost never" is the same thing that can be said for how often civilians will need a concealed weapon. What many in this argument seem unable or unwilling to understand is that the act of carrying a firearm in and of itself is to protect against a highly unlikely event. Still we carry. For many they prepare for the rare need only to fall short in choosing which caliber to carry.

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Sort of like having a car that goes 200 mph---nice to have, but it really doesn't make much difference when it comes to going to the store to buy milk.
If this was just about getting milk faster I would agree that the bug is ok. Since it is about life and death, "almost never" still leaves open that possibility that caliber could be the deciding factor in survival.

Against a determined attacker a mouse simply lacks what it takes to stop the attack. Not a single one of you pro mouse gun guys would choose that weapon if you knew in advance that you would face a determined attacker and only had handguns to choose from.
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Old June 25, 2008, 07:48 PM   #107
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PT, If Glocks stopped selling (demand went down) they would be forced to lower prices. Just as they raised them when demand exploded in the 80's. They went from 300 to 500 pretty fast. They far out paced inflation. They were only able to do it because the demand was high enough to support the increase.

If Hi-point doubled their price folks would buy a better gun. Almost every Hi-point I have ever sold was purchased because the customer couldn't afford better. Hi-point would joint the list of middle of the road guns thus ending their reign as king of the junk guns.
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Old June 25, 2008, 08:56 PM   #108
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threegun - I know what youa re saying and that is why I hated econ quizes so much. It was always choose the most correct answer out of five and all five were correct just the professor liked one better than the others. I had many discussions where we woudl wind up getting credit for more than one answer because when it comes to economics no one knows what will happen when prices are raised or lowered.

The best exanple of that is several years ago Amazon.com announced that they had lost $50 million one quarter and did not expect to have a break even quarter for at least five more years. The price of their stock doubled on that announcement.

Any store owner will tell you that customers will not even look at a 10% off sale. You have to go at least 15% for people to even notice. Yet every year here in SC people go absolute crazy over the tax free weekend which is only 6-8%. Go figure.
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Old June 26, 2008, 01:23 AM   #109
.300H&H
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Yeah Erik, to a certain degree that's what I'm advocating ie. a seecamp can be more practical than a 1911...in certain circumstances. In my previous posts I've even stated that I prefer a .38 snubbie. The main thing I'm advocating - is that tactics are very important and that mouseguns can be lethal and useful tools of selfdefense. A 1911 would of course offer greater 1shot lethality,and it's definitly a better pistol than a mousegun in terms of stopping a burglar or any situation in which one has the jump on the perpetrator - but, in close quarters where the perp has the initial jump on someone, the mousegun comes into play because it's deeply concealed...and can<if one is lucky and/or seizes the right moment>pull it out and use it rapidly at close range. One technique<generalizing> is to take a defensive stance and double tap, and continue to double tap as one moves to safety. If there's a gunfight in the next room or down the lane - the mousegun stays put and is not used. It's a BUG - not a gunfight weapon.


A lot of self defense situations are going to occur in bad situations. Perps tend to surprise people on purpose. If a seasoned inmate familiar with using a shiv and all sorts of street violence comes after somebody,it's likely to be after he's sneakily gotten up close and personal. I saw a show recently of people who were advocating 'open carry' - and they had lots of nice high capacity semiautos...but they were also using holsters that were designed to prevent 'takeaways' - so when the Perp attacks, the gun is almost useless because it's can't be quickly drawn.


Primary weapon? Well, any weapon one has - if it's one's only weapon - become then the primary weapon. Mouseguns deserve more respect by both users and receivers because despite their smallness, they can be quite lethal. There's quite a few times where one simply needs something that can be deeply concealed...but ironically I bet more folks neglect to practice with their mousegun than all their other guns. Ironically the mousegun probably requires the most practice to use effectively. I don't advocate open carry under most circumstances; I prefer well-concealed carry. Quiet as a mouse.
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Old June 26, 2008, 07:01 AM   #110
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.300,
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If there's a gunfight in the next room or down the lane - the mouse gun stays put and is not used. It's a BUG - not a gunfight weapon.
Why wouldn't the 1911 stay concealed with a gunfight in the next room? A handgun in general isn't what I would prefer in a gunfight. Just as a bug gun isn't what any of us would prefer in a life and death attack. Why prepare for the attack by carrying only to carry a gun you wouldn't dream of grabbing if you knew the attack was coming?

Quote:
but, in close quarters where the perp has the initial jump on someone, the mouse gun comes into play because it's deeply concealed...and can<if one is lucky and/or seizes the right moment>pull it out and use it rapidly at close range.
Why can a mouse gun be pulled from concealment while under attack yet a 1911 cannot? Prudent CW carriers practice accessing their weapon. This notion of "deep concealment" is bogus. Concealed is concealed. For me "deep" concealment is a gun so placed as to completely remove any sign of it period. They are usually very difficult to access and virtually impossible to access while under attack. Normal concealment, fanny pack, ankle holster, hidden waist carry, pockets, purses, shoulder holsters, etc. can be used for most small and medium handguns and a few full sized handguns not just bugs. They generally allow easy access while hiding the firearm from ordinary view.


Quote:
One technique<generalizing> is to take a defensive stance and double tap, and continue to double tap as one moves to safety
Why can't tactics designed to enhance the mouse guns effectiveness be applied to the 1911? How do tactics increase the penetrative and bone smashing abilities of a cartridge?


Quote:
A lot of self defense situations are going to occur in bad situations. Perps tend to surprise people on purpose. If a seasoned inmate familiar with using a shiv and all sorts of street violence comes after somebody,it's likely to be after he's sneakily gotten up close and personal.
Situational awareness is mandatory no matter what platform you carry. Your quote only strengthens my beliefs in that if I have failed to give myself advanced warning of pending danger and in fact have allowed that danger to get on top of me, do I want a caliber on the very weakest end of the spectrum at that moment? My gun is hidden so it should be just as much a surprise to the BG as a mouse.

A snubbie can even be fired from a pocket/purse (shrouded hammer models) without having to remove it. It has the power to reach the vitals yet remains easy to carry. There really are very few reasons to carry a bug as primary. With todays firearms ease of carry shouldn't be one of them.
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Old June 26, 2008, 07:16 AM   #111
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Handgun calibers are terrible man stoppers despite every single one of them being 100 percent lethal. We know that there are only three ways to cause a bad guy to comply.

#1 is a hit to the brain or upper spinal cord. (very hard to achieve given the dynamics of a shootout)

#2 is the bad guy giving up because of pain or fear of being shot. (not reliable because everybody reacts differently and of course drugs)

#3 is blood loss. (this effects everyone and can be caused by hits to the large parts of the body..........easiest to achieve)

The mouse gun doesn't get much respect because it causes the least of what is needed to stop a bad guy. That simply isn't acceptable for my safety or that of my family.
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Old June 26, 2008, 06:34 PM   #112
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"...but, in close quarters where the perp has the initial jump on someone, the mousegun comes into play because it's deeply concealed...and can <if one is lucky and/or seizes the right moment> pull it out and use it rapidly at close range. One technique <generalizing> is to take a defensive stance and double tap, and continue to double tap as one moves to safety. If there's a gunfight in the next room or down the lane - the mousegun stays put and is not used. It's a BUG - not a gunfight weapon."
This is UTTER NONSENSE... :barf:

You THINK a "mouse" can be shot better than ANY full-size 9mm or .45 ACP pistol at ANY distance?? You're crack, dude. Absolutely barking mad.

Try IDPAing with your mouse and then ask to re-run with a service-sized pistol and compare scores. This was done in Handguns magazine last year and you know what the results were? If you think this is all you need stay home.

I can (and YOU can) shoot better under ALL circumstances with an M&P over a LCP, Helt-Tec or any other "micropistol" or snub-nosed J-Frame or equivalent.



:barf:
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Old June 26, 2008, 11:35 PM   #113
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Chui, I would not say he was on crack, but would say that you are correct -because people show a notorious lack of proficiency with their BUGs. They don't spend the time with their bugs to be proficient or not to be as proficient as they are with their primary guns.

David Armstrong said,
[QUOTE]They [classes for .22/.25acp] are usually part of a broader BUG-type of class, of which there are many. Also, many instructors allow the smaller calibers into their main handgun class./QUOTE]

I understand there are BUG classes, but not .22/.25 acp classes per se. BUGs come in a variety of sizes and shapes. My preferred BUG is a Kahr PM9, but it has considerable capabilities above my .22 revolver, so application and expectations of each is going to vary.
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Old June 27, 2008, 01:01 AM   #114
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Here's something Chui and all the "over .40" crowd don't understand-
Some of us don't WANT a 1911 strapped to our side all day! I can carry my little Keltec and never know it's there until I slip my hand in my pocket. I can also have my hand on my gun, ready to draw, at any time. Bet you can't do that with your 1911! After 10 years of carrying it, i can pretty much shoot it as well as, or better than, most folks can shoot a full sized gun.
You see, some of us have already "been there, done that" with the big guns, and actually made a conscious decision that a small gun would be our primary weapon. I don't need to dress around my gun-it's simply there.
If I ever have to use it, I'm sure I'll wish it was a .45-but I'll damn sure have a gun, without all the hoopla that you guys have to go through.
I even keep a "backup" 9mm close by in the car!
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Old June 27, 2008, 01:33 AM   #115
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Primary carry is situational. A 12ga. Persuader shotgun might be very effective...and if a Burglar is breaking into my house...I'd probably reach for the shotgun...but it's a pain to open carry a shotgun all day...and as I walk through the parking garage to my car, it just doesn't feel comfortable slung over my shoulder...although I'm sure it's superior to a 9mm in regard to stopping power. There are times when a fat 1911 .45 is a good carry. If I was pulling over people on the highway handing out tickets all day...I might like one strapped on my side... There is also a place for a mouse gun! The mouse gun also has its niche. Again, I'd just argue that all these weapons deserve respect and tactical preparedness/training.


During WW2, Churchill's bodyguard carried a .32. He could shoot a head-sized target at 50 paces with it quite quickly and readily. Bloom where you're planted...and if planted with a mouse gun, the challenge is to know how to effectively use it.
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Old June 27, 2008, 01:58 AM   #116
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BTW- I own at least a half-dozen .45s, and more 9mms.
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Old June 27, 2008, 05:49 AM   #117
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Here's something Chui and all the "over .40" crowd don't understand-

Some of us don't WANT a 1911 strapped to our side all day! I can carry my little Keltec and never know it's there until I slip my hand in my pocket. I can also have my hand on my gun, ready to draw, at any time. Bet you can't do that with your 1911! After 10 years of carrying it, i can pretty much shoot it as well as, or better than, most folks can shoot a full sized gun.

You see, some of us have already "been there, done that" with the big guns, and actually made a conscious decision that a small gun would be our primary weapon. I don't need to dress around my gun - it's simply there.

If I ever have to use it, I'm sure I'll wish it was a .45-but I'll damn sure have a gun, without all the hoopla that you guys have to go through.

I even keep a "backup" 9mm close by in the car!
First of all, Bill, 9mm is just fine. I don't care for .40 S&W. The 1911 is THIN so it conceals better than all other full-size pistols.

I have no issues with my 1911 or M&P9 or P7M8, either. I use a proper belt. All of my belts are "proper" - even my dress belts. Check out Galco. I prefer IWB. They are comfortable. Wearing slacks and a jacket is easy. Wearing shorts with a tucked T-shirt and a loose fitting cover shirt is easy. Fall is easy. Winter is easy. The only time I have to even think a little bit is if it's over 90 degrees and humid.

I've no need to keep my hand on my pistol but I'l bet you our draw times are very similar. And I'm surely not a "most shooter" so running a course of fire would not likely be all that close. But then if we switched guns you'd do far better than I.

Here is the issue: if you know you needed a pistol you'd choose something else. So why carry something you would not wish to have with you in an emergency? You've made a conscious choice to carry an inferior tool. As long as you're okay with all of it's limitations. And the limitations are substantial regardless of caliber.

P.S.

I don't leave weapons unattended. Ever.
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Old June 27, 2008, 06:32 AM   #118
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Ok. So let me see if I got this right. A big gun is better than a small gun? Is that about the gist of it? Thank you. I'd have never figured that out on my own.

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Cain killed Able with a rock. Think about that before you post.
Someone may have pointed this out, I didn't read all the replies, but actually the Bible doesn't say how Cain killed Able. It just says he did. (Gen 4:8 (NKJV) Now Cain talked with Able his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Able his brother and killed him.) It's reasonable to assume that he used a rock, or a stick, but it's not stated.

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You, on the other hand, have a concealed weapon permit because you are either afraid, or you are looking for trouble. There are no other reasons for a civilian to have a concealed weapon.
This is about as silly a statement as I've ever read.

But this one is close.

Quote:
You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks.
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Old June 27, 2008, 10:21 AM   #119
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When using a larger caliber pistol it makes sense to shoot to COM. But when shooting a mouse gun, that strategy may not even slow down a determined attacker. If, however, when forced to use a mouse gun, you aim at the pelvic girdle do you not have a greater capacity to slow or end an attacker's charge on you? I am reminded of articles involving charging grizzly bears where the goal is to shoot to shoulders to stop the animal's ability to advance before trying to kill it. Why wouldn't the same reasoning apply in this situation?
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You're being entirely facetious, right?

Iff (if and only if)

If you aren't then I'm wholly at a loss to respond...
Chui, if you are going to use my quote to somehow show how sophisticated and knowledgeable you are at my expense please quote my entire question. I prefaced my query with a "Please correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't tactics change when using a mousegun."

At 53, I've learned that there is a lot I don't know about the world. I've come to find that asking questions is a good way to learn. I encourage it in my children and in others. The query I posed was (or so I thought) a legitimate attempt to educate myself relying on the combined knowledge of the folks who post here to provide their insights.

I asked a very similar question on another thread in this forum. The responses were thoughtful and enlightening. I learned there that the strategy I was asking about was a poor idea because hip shots are not sufficiently incapacitating.

I'm sorry that the best you could do was to respond with mockery.

But hey, have a nice day anyway.

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Old June 27, 2008, 11:11 AM   #120
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Chui, if you are going to use my quote to somehow show how sophisticated and knowledgeable you are at my expense please quote my entire question. I prefaced my query with a "Please correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't tactics change when using a mousegun."

At 53, I've learned that there is a lot I don't know about the world. I've come to find that asking questions is a good way to learn. I encourage it in my children and in others. The query I posed was (or so I thought) a legitimate attempt to educate myself relying on the combined knowledge of the folks who post here to provide their insights.

I asked a very similar question on another thread in this forum. The responses were thoughtful and enlightening. I learned there that the strategy I was asking about was a poor idea because hip shots are not sufficiently incapacitating.

I'm sorry that the best you could do was to respond with mockery.

But hey, have a nice day anyway.
You, like me and most every other human, will shoot center of mass. That's how we are wired. You, like me and most every other human will experience time distortion, tunnel vision, reduced levels of fine motor control, elevated heart rate due to adrenaline, adopting an modified isocolese shooting position if you're out in the open, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

One should consider training the way we are most likely to respond... That, sir, was my point. Unless you do a significant amount of training to overcome your natural "wired" responses you may find yourself reverting to something you're "not familiar" with...

I know where you're coming from: impede the person's mobility, but if the person has a firearm he can still fire in your direction incapacitating you. I *believe* that if I'm able to land shots and the person reacts to being shot I could then begin to use my cognitive ability and do whatever. Other than that I'm kinda confident it will bea :

Look, FLINCH!, draw, point, shoot affair with only combat levels of accuracy not a fist sized group.

ASSUMING the individual is not already on me, that is.

So to answer your question I don't believe having a different tactic for a diffrent gun is viable for most of us who don't train fastidiously and properly daily or weekly.

Train the way Human Instincts will Predict. If you can excel in this you'll probably be fine. If things continue for a mag change and there is a lull you can perhaps introduce other aspects/levels/techniques and I hope that we all would.

Draw, Extend, SHOOT!

Others may perceive other things and that's okay, too. I'd like to hear them, think about them, try them in some drills and draw my own conclusions.
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Old June 27, 2008, 12:28 PM   #121
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Reason for carrying a .22LR as primary

There is really only one reason I could think of that would justify a .22LR as primary: it's all the shooter can handle.

Now, before I get flamed by the "then you need to practice more" crowd, please realize that I do practice, and that my carries are either a 9mm P239, .357 SP101, or .45 C3; my other service grade pistols and revolvers are too bulky for concealment without a jacket, and I can't think of a reason other than hunting to carry my .44mag.

However, I am thinking more in terms of somebody like my mother, who is in her mid-late 60's and has fairly poor hand strength. Practice will help her skill, but in her case it isn't likely to help her with recoil control (due to physical pain), or with racking the slide on the autos (due to lack of strength in her grip). For her, a .22LR revolver is probably optimal (for CCW purposes, anyway, otherwise it would be a 20 gauge...)

A .22 that she can both carry and shoot is much better than a 9mm or .45 with a slide she can't work, or a .357 with recoil she can't handle, or a .38 that's too heavy or bulky for her.

Cheers,

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Old June 27, 2008, 01:14 PM   #122
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A 1911 is not particularly thin. It just seems thin because the gun is so big. My P32 is "considerably" thinner!
I have spent a lifetime looking for the "perfect" carry gun (for me.) Everything is a compromise. I know how to carry a .45, and have done so extensively. Then it was a 2" .38, then a Star Starfire .380. Along the way I probably carried most common guns for a while.
I work in a very bad area-lots of crime and racial tension. My pocket gun is always there to get me out of a fix. I'm very confident I can do the job with it.
Most weapons classes are taught by law officers. Their mindset is much different than necessary for civilian carry. Unfortunately, there are few qualified to teach the art of civilian carry-hence we have people strapping on huge guns because the former cop told them little bullets just bounce off people!
Think about this: if everyone carried a little .32 in their pocket, the world would be a much nicer place!
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Old June 27, 2008, 01:22 PM   #123
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Chui, thanks for your response. I agree with most of your last post.

!. If the BG is armed with a firearm then immobilizing him pales into insignificance. In that scenario, COM and head shots are the only thing that makes sense.

2. When the SHTF, we will revert to what we have trained unconsciously. I guess that's why they call it training.

What I was getting at in my original post, and explained very poorly I might add, is a situation in which the BG is holding a knife or some other weapon that requires proximity to be of use. If the BG is closing, COM hits with a mousegun may not slow him quickly enough to prevent serious or life-threatening injuries to you. That is why I asked whether a change of tactics (necessitating, of course, a change in training) might be useful to consider. Several folks with a medical background have advised that, while an gunshot injury from a small caliber weapon to the hip would be painful, in their opinion, it would not be incapacitating or injure the BG sufficiently to consider the tactic as an alternative to COM shots. That's good enough for me until and unless someone with greater knowledge chimes in with a contrary opinion.

<><Peace
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Old June 27, 2008, 01:54 PM   #124
Bill DeShivs
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98% (my estimate) will cease the attack if someone is shooting at them, 1% will cease the attack if hit with any bullet.
The other insane, zombie 1% probably wouldn't be stopped with any caliber without a CNS hit.
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Old June 27, 2008, 03:16 PM   #125
PT111
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Quote:
98% (my estimate) will cease the attack if someone is shooting at them, 1% will cease the attack if hit with any bullet.
The other insane, zombie 1% probably wouldn't be stopped with any caliber without a CNS hit.
I am not sure about those percentages but I would say that your ideas are right on. If someone sees your .22 revolver and gets hit with a .22 bullet but keeps coming, you need to consider retreat as a viable option.
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