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Old June 22, 2008, 05:24 PM   #76
threegun
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Lost me right there...
And hooked the peoples republic Kalifornia at that point.
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Old June 22, 2008, 09:30 PM   #77
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I really hope I don't get so close to the BG that I can hit him in the head with the rock still in my hand. Of course if you are that close you can always pistol whup him.
With a .25? Just be carefull it don't break or go off in your hand when you do that.
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Old June 22, 2008, 09:53 PM   #78
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After you get the permit, your weapon will most likely remain under your car seat, in your desk drawer, or in the bottom of your purse. There will not be a round in the chamber. It may even be completely unloaded, the bullets hidden in some other place – for safety.
That's about the silliest damn thing I've ever heard. Based on what? I personally know only about a dozen CPL holders, and NONE would lend themselves to backing up this particular statistic. Most likely? Conjecture at its purest.
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Old June 23, 2008, 12:02 AM   #79
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Anecdotal...

Some years ago<many years ago> I was dating a lady...and as the passenger in her car - a 1972 Vette -<gosh, do I remember the car more fondly?> I noticed a Beretta .25acp sticking out of the glove box... She remarked that it was there to 'scare off possible bad guys'. She had never actually fired the gun, but 'knew how to load it...' It was a bit chilling ie. she treated it like a kind of 'toy' and seemed to assume that it was a simple little thing to use... She had no experience with any firearms. It had been given to her as a 'gift' by a relative.


One problem with Mouse guns, is that I think they don't get the respect they deserve; they aren't toys - and they require more proficiency to use than a revolver or bigger semiautos. With a Mouse gun, one should frequently practice shooting it, and know how to 'clear it' of possible jams - and gain a significant level of skill. Yet, I would bet that Mouse guns suffer from getting the least amount of respect and proficiency of use. A big chunk of the stats in regard to the poor performance of .22/.25acp's might simply be a reflection of the unskillful use of the weapons rather than the actual weapons. One sad remark sometimes heard in the aftermath of a shooting<i'm thinking primarily of domestic situations> is :'It was just a .22.' - as if folks think that there's a special law that categorizes a little .22 as not being so serious...


Tactical proficiency will almost always trump caliber size. I think people are a little smarter these days, but the Mouse gun could still benefit from a bigger dose of respect and training. I've seen Mouseguns being one of the most dangerous little items for some people to own...and I do believe that the .22 caliber is responsible for the most gunshot wounds of any caliber<i know it was some years back...>
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Old June 23, 2008, 09:09 AM   #80
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One problem with Mouse guns, is that I think they don't get the respect they deserve;
Right up until it is pointed right at your face. I have no problem carrying a mouse gun.
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Old June 23, 2008, 05:38 PM   #81
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"I could quickly pop off 7 rounds from my little .22 Beretta Bobcat... and I can't imagine anyone standing on the receiving end within 10 ft. who could withstand such a nasty unloading. Imagine 7 quick .22/.25 acp shots at close range to one's torso. That's nasty and very lethal. It might not be the optimum primary weapon... but it's still a powerful form of self-defense."
I could introduce you to one from my old childhood neighborhood. He was shot a couple a miles from the neighborhood standing in line to eat at a takeout restaurant. Some guy skipped him in line and he protested. I think he may have hit the guy -it's been approaching 30 years ago. I do recall that he was hit exactly seven times in the torso at point blank (i.e., conversational range) range. He lives to this day with no complications. It was "hit or miss" for a few days afterward, however. He was nicknamed "Twenty Mule" after bouncing back from that ordeal. Real nice fella. YOU can ask him yourself what he felt and what he thought. I'll answer: "I wish the hell I had my 9mm cause I'd a shot his..."

I know of another one - this time a woman who was shot seven times with a .25 caliber semi-automatic in the upper torso, neck and face. She, too, walks, smiles and is none the worse for wear minus scars from the surgery.

The first guy was a muscular, athletic man in his day and at the time of the shooting - kinda like a NCAA defensive back. The woman was not overly anything. Kinda short, built like a 400 meter sprinter. Not overtly muscular or anthing. She'd tell you that it hurt but she was able to fight off the idiot and get to the phone to dial 911.

IF A PERSON IS HIGHLY MOTIVATED YOU'VE JUST GOTTEN THEIR ATTENTION. IF THEY ARE CLOSE ENOUGH TO YOU & SUITABLY AGGRESSIVE THEY'LL GRAB YOU. AND IF THEY ARE SUITABLY ARMED IT'S NOW THEIR TURN...

I'll pass...
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Old June 23, 2008, 05:45 PM   #82
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There are much more important things in determining ear damage than the difference between cartridges; the effective reflection of the environment and the ear's state at the time. That is why the Eskimos went deaf, as they were shooting at water after waiting in silence.

Also, the measurement from cartridge to cartridge is going to be repeatable in a relative way, being a function of muzzle pressure and bore+chamber volume, but the absolute measurement is very difficult to control. When someone writes down 155.0 db re ubar, that may be one data point from one set up, but to get 4 digits of replicate able resolution, that would be one elaborate test set up in the lab, certainly not at the range.
Uh, you're incorrect. I've worked in Sound Quality for the last nine years and in Vibrations for 15. They are extremely repeatable. By the way, decibels are not linear they are a log function. Every 6 dB is a doubling of sound pressure. A .22LR will damage your ears. Some of it is repairable but continued exposure is doom.

I don't know where you're reaching to/from on the Eskimo, thingie.
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Old June 23, 2008, 05:53 PM   #83
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When using a larger caliber pistol it makes sense to shoot to COM. But when shooting a mouse gun, that strategy may not even slow down a determined attacker. If, however, when forced to use a mouse gun, you aim at the pelvic girdle do you not have a greater capacity to slow or end an attacker's charge on you? I am reminded of articles involving charging grizzly bears where the goal is to shoot to shoulders to stop the animal's ability to advance before trying to kill it. Why wouldn't the same reasoning apply in this situation?
You're being entirely facetious, right?

Iff (if and only if)

If you aren't then I'm wholly at a loss to respond...
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Old June 23, 2008, 05:59 PM   #84
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I saw a classic statement in another topic on another forum... "it beats harsh words."
True that.

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One problem with Mouse guns, is that I think they don't get the respect they deserve; Right up until it is pointed right at your face.
Ditto.

However, when/if you and the Goblin/Zombie "do the dance" HE will lead and YOU will follow. No mice stinger for me... It leaves far too much to chance.
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Old June 23, 2008, 06:03 PM   #85
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"Bahhhh, baaaaah. After you get the permit, baah, baaah, your weapon will most likely remain under your car seat, in your desk drawer, or in the bottom of your purse. Bahh. There will not be a round in the chamber. Bahh. It may even be completely unloaded, the bullets hidden in some other place – for safety. bah, bah, bah. munch, munch, munch. baa, baaa, baaaa..."
Anyone hear anything?

I've got a sudden taste for mutton.
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Old June 23, 2008, 09:32 PM   #86
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Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?
For the same reason deer, elk, bison, and bear hunters don't carry .22lr and .25 acp for hunting. They are not known for making quick and effective stops on larger, dangerous animals.
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Old June 24, 2008, 01:59 AM   #87
.300H&H
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Yawning... Tactical proficiency trumps 'caliber' ie. if a .22/.25acp is all you're carrying...then it is your primary defense gun...and then one has to use the appropriate tactics that go along with it...
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Old June 24, 2008, 09:21 AM   #88
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Yawning... Tactical proficiency trumps 'caliber' ie. if a .22/.25acp is all you're carrying...then it is your primary defense gun...and then one has to use the appropriate tactics that go along with it...
Uh-huh. Who offers those tactical courses in .22/.25acp self defense? I would be glad to take it!
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Old June 24, 2008, 05:44 PM   #89
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Well, if the referenceis .223 Remington/5.56 NATO you may be on to something. Otherwise,...

Good LUCK
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Old June 25, 2008, 02:05 AM   #90
.300H&H
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anecdotal...

http://www.mouseguns.com/tactics/seltac.htm


Part of the problem is that some folks get a kind of noble-but-skewed notion
about self-defense ie. they've got a nice Glock or HK or 1911...and they practice well. Heck, they can hit the bullseye from 25yds. quite consistantly.
They get a lot of well meaning + feedback from other shooters at the range,
and they've taken a few classes too. They get a bit confident...and fantasize about using their .40 S&W to save the day at their workplace or the local mall from some crazed rampaging 300 lb. biker...


Yet, in reality the self-defense situations they are likely to run into in public - are likely to be a quick and ugly close quarters sort of situation in which the perpetrator tries to get the jump on them in a kind of desparate ambush or blitz attack. You don't want a weapon that the perp can see and try to rob from you.


Your BUG/Mousegun is thus your primary civilian weapon. Can you use it effectively? So what if you can hit bullseyes at 25yds. at the range with a Glock; can you in a high adrenalin frightening moment, pull out a mousegun and use it reliably against a perp. who is less than 5ft. away...against a perp who might already have a hand on you...or have knocked you down?


The mousegun is designed to save your bacon. It's not a range gun or a gun to be used in a 'gunfight.' It's designed instead for the self defense situations a civilian is most likely to encounter in public. Its deep concealment is a virtue. Its controllability is a virtue. It lacks firepower - but it has capacity and it's designed for close quarters use.
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Old June 25, 2008, 03:17 AM   #91
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Yet, in reality the self-defense situations they are likely to run into in public - are likely to be a quick and ugly close quarters sort of situation.......
The closer the range, the more important it is to incapacitate Bubba quickly, since the closer the range, the easier it is for Bubba to kill you and the less skill he needs to do it.

Carry your mouse gun if you wish, and get what satisfaction you can out of knowing that Bubba might well bleed to death in an hour or so, or even die of severe abdominable infection a week later--and may suffer (yes!!) more than you did before you died.

People far more knowledgeable than you and I recommend filing off the front sight of your primary mousegun and applying plenty of lube to the outside surface. Need you really ask why?
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Old June 25, 2008, 07:00 AM   #92
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So just more theory, .300H&H but nothing helpful? No tactics and training courses for the use of the .22/.25 acp in self defense?

If the .22/.25 acp is so good for use as a primary defense gun, you gotta wonder why there aren't more of such courses. Heck, I have to wonder why there aren't any such courses! After all, there would apparently be a market...
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Old June 25, 2008, 07:49 AM   #93
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Yet, in reality the self-defense situations they are likely to run into in public - are likely to be a quick and ugly close quarters sort of situation in which the perpetrator tries to get the jump on them in a kind of desparate ambush or blitz attack. You don't want a weapon that the perp can see and try to rob from you.
Exactly!! (minus the last sentence). Reality is what has the folks who refuse to carry mouse guns, thinking they way they do. Getting those 7 torso hits after/while being "ambushed or blitzed" is not going to be the same as at the range on a b-21. Something as subtle as a slight dipping of the shoulder not only blades the torso (giving half the target) but it forces the bullet to penetrate much more deeply and through bone..............something not well suited for the 25 or 22.

Anyone can and should become proficient with whatever gun they carry and learn tactics to increase survival. Trying to make up for the deficiencies of a cartridge through special tactics is impossible. All one can do is taylor them to a particular weapon and hope the incident stays within those tactics. This is true for the larger calibers as well. The mouse gun just puts you at the very bottom of the ladder.

BTW Here in Florida we are not allowed to carry a CW in a manor that someone could see it. The firearm much be concealed from ordinary view. If my bad guy sees it will only be when I pull it........hopefully to late for them.

Some argue that since the odds of being attacked by a determined attacker are slim that the 22/25 will do. I argue that Murphy will see to it that I am attacked by the worst of the worst and leaving so much caliber on the table is simply not an option.
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Old June 25, 2008, 07:59 AM   #94
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There are no courses because there are no professionals advocating the mouse gun as a primary carry gun. Folks who have a higher level of tactical firearm education and promotes a mouse gun as primary don't flourish in the business.

It would be akin to an economics professor saying that the price goes up when demand goes down.
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Old June 25, 2008, 08:12 AM   #95
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It would be akin to an economics professor saying that the price goes up when demand goes down.
In actual tests of limited markets stranger things than that have happened. In one test for a generic drug they artificially manipulated the price and found that when the price fell below a certain point they could not sell it. However when the raised the price well beyond the normal selling price it increased demand greatly. People are affected by their perceived cost/benefit ratio rather than actually being dependent on the supply/demand formula.

If you have a taste test between two similar products such as Coke and Pepsi 86% of all people will choose the one in their dominant hand regardless of which one it is.
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Old June 25, 2008, 08:27 AM   #96
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The law of supply and demand is 99.999 percent law then......because until your post I had not heard of another.

Look at oil. Demand is more than supply right now by a million barrels a day. Prices are way up. Back in the day OPEC would cut supply to raise the price.

A more recent and recognizable example would be the playstation 3 units. Demand was so high that folks would buy them retail and sell them for triple.

In our hobby just look at the Seecamp before competitors flooded the market with copy's. Used guns would sell for more than a new one. The demand was greater than the supply.
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Old June 25, 2008, 10:55 AM   #97
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The tactics concerning mouseguns are basically the same as for carrying any BUG... Concealment is a virtue, and while some folks argue that larger guns can be concealed, I would suggest that I mean deep perfect comfortable concealment.


Self-defense does not begin and end with the firearm. Frankly, if somebody is mugged at close quarters, they might not be in a position to respond with any firearm at all. If the bad guy is holding a knife to one's throat or a gun to one's head - the caliber chambered in one's holstered glock...is a bit moot...and if the bad guy takes away one's glock, well, that's all the more ugly too. I would want a concealed gun to be as unobtrusive,secret and easy to whip out as a set of car keys or a wallet.


Also, consider the law and the locations of possible confrontations. Do you really want to be shooting at a range beyond 7ft. ? The mouse gun is for close quarters self defense - to get you out of trouble. It's not a gun that a LEO would wear when approaching a drug suspect for a possible arrest; it is however a gun that might be in one's pocket when walking the dog. Considering that some folks have an old can of pepper spray or tear gas as their primary self defense, the mousgun is a powerhouse in comparison.


Oh well, there are a lot of choices for primary carry. Size doesn't always matter. A lot of Cool Cats carry Mouseguns. You just don't see'em. It's kinda like a secret society.
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Old June 25, 2008, 12:41 PM   #98
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If you want to kill an attacker put big holes in their chest or head. Or both. The bigger the hole, the faster they are going to bleed out, or the more damage the object making the hole is going to do on it's trip inside.

Even with good shot placement, a .22 is not going to perform as good as a larger caliber.
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Old June 25, 2008, 01:05 PM   #99
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Extremes can be listed from both sides but they are still not the norm. When the dust settles and the smoke clears handguns with cartridges heavy enough to penetrate deep and smash bone will be on top.
Actually the norm is any gun that works in any caliber you have. The need for the effectiveness of the larger calibers is as extreme as the deathray effect from the minor calibers. What many in this argument seem unable or unwilling to understand is that the greater effectiveness of the larger claiber is almost never a factor in the outcome of the fight. It is nice to have, but not really necessary. Sort of like having a car that goes 200 mph---nice to have, but it really doesn't make much difference when it comes to going to the store to buy milk.
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Old June 25, 2008, 01:16 PM   #100
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For the same reason deer, elk, bison, and bear hunters don't carry .22lr and .25 acp for hunting. They are not known for making quick and effective stops on larger, dangerous animals.
Ummm, not to belabor the obvious, but I believe we can say the same thing for .38, 9mm, .45, etc.
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