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Old June 19, 2008, 03:47 PM   #51
PT111
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You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks.
But you will need big pockets to handle those rocks. A .22/.25 isn't my preference but it sure beats nothing and I would not hesitate one bit to carry one if needed. I had a close friend that was killed by one shot from a .22.
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Old June 19, 2008, 03:58 PM   #52
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't strategies change when using a mouse gun?

When using a larger caliber pistol it makes sense to shoot to COM. But when shooting a mouse gun, that strategy may not even slow down a determined attacker. If, however, when forced to use a mouse gun, you aim at the pelvic girdle do you not have a greater capacity to slow or end an attacker's charge on you? I am reminded of articles involving charging grizzly bears where the goal is to shoot to shoulders to stop the animal's ability to advance before trying to kill it. Why wouldn't the same reasoning apply in this situation?

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Old June 19, 2008, 04:14 PM   #53
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If the other guy is armed in ANY way, shape or form then you need to be able to overpower him very quickly with bigger and better guns. In other words, one of the officers should of been using a shotgun or a rifle. The rifle should have been at least a .30 caliber or bigger, like a lever action .44 magnum saddle carbine or even a 45-70. We can second guess all day as to what is right or wrong as far as this situation is concerned but having studied a number of police involved shootings as a range officer, time and again I see where an officer tried to use his handgun when a rifle or shotgun would have been of better use to him/them. In a couple of weeks I have a new group of officers that I will be teaching about using firearms and how to shoot them. Again, the one main thing that I WILL impress on them is to rely on the police rifle or shotgun as their PRIMARY firearm and use their pistols as back-ups to the shoulder-mounted guns. This situation just re-inforces how wimpy pistols can be to me.
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Old June 19, 2008, 06:34 PM   #54
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There are lots of opinions about stopping power.

I have shot lots of animals and watched them die.

What a difference between Quickshock and Eagle hollow point 22lr ammo!

Above 2000 fps, there is shock wave that turns flesh to mush. Those shot by the DC sniper with a 223 died.
80% of those attacked with a handgun survive.
As Elmer Keith says, you can eat right up to the hole.

I have a friend who killed a perp with a 25acp after being screwed with a samurai sword back in 2000
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...1ed830f7f7e266

My current strategy is to use 25acp pistols for demonstrating double charges as a first step in a work up with drastically low SAAMI registered pressures, carry a 380 in my shirt pocket for low threat neighborhoods, and carry a 45 in bad neighborhoods. If I find myself in trouble, I will put a half dozen 45 cal holes through his lungs and then out run him.
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Old June 19, 2008, 06:47 PM   #55
Bill DeShivs
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"You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks."

Another irresponsible statement. Some kid might read that and shoot his friend, thinking that it won't hurt him any more than a rock. Think before you post, please.
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Old June 19, 2008, 09:39 PM   #56
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Bill,

Cain killed Able with a rock. Think about that before you post.
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Old June 19, 2008, 09:42 PM   #57
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"into harms way"
There's no way in Hades to predict when and where things may fall apart.
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Old June 20, 2008, 07:35 AM   #58
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Bill,

Cain killed Able with a rock. Think about that before you post.
Also David killed the Goliath with a rock but I am much more accurate with a .22 than with a sling and it is much faster reloading.
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Old June 20, 2008, 08:09 AM   #59
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I carry a Taurus PT25 when I walk my dog, because I'm usually in a pair of shorts and a tank top when nature calls him and changing into something that will let me carry a bigger gun isn't likely ... it's more for varmints than for bad guys, since my neighborhood hasn't seen a crime worse than mailbox bashing for years ... But it would never be my primary SD gun, I have a 9mm, .357 or .45 for that duty ... a .25 isn't much, but it will do the job on a skunk or snake if I need it to ...
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Old June 20, 2008, 07:54 PM   #60
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Also David killed the Goliath with a rock but I am much more accurate with a .22 than with a sling and it is much faster reloading.
Don't have to reload a rock if it's in your hands. And I'm pretty accurate with a rock that way.
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Old June 21, 2008, 02:31 AM   #61
.300H&H
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Don't underestimate the Mice...

I could quickly pop off 7 rounds from my little .22 Beretta Bobcat...and I can't imagine anyone standing on the receiving end within 10 ft. who could withstand such a nasty unloading. Imagine 7 quick .22/.25 acp shots at close range to one's torso. That's nasty and very lethal. It might not be the optimum primary weapon...but it's still a powerful form of self-defense.
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Old June 21, 2008, 04:55 PM   #62
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.300H&H, Getting those 7 torso hits against a fighting & moving target while under the stress of a life and death situation according to statistics is very difficult. Here in lies the problem with micro calibers. Bad guys turn, bob, weave, run, charge, and many many more unexpected maneuvers that are very difficult to predict much less practice for. Your frontal torso view might suddenly disappear into an arm and side with the slightest of bad guy movement. Now you have half the size target and twice the required penetration to get to vitals.

Theoretically 7 rapid hits to the torso is going to cause a serious problem for the BG as will precision hits. They are just statistically hard to achieve reliably given the variables.
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Old June 21, 2008, 04:57 PM   #63
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As WildAlaska has said before, and I agree with, the .32(or any decent mouse) is more than enough for the average citizen in everyday, average situations...and small caliber hits to the face at arms length will do a lot of damage(Ken, I'll take a 3X, thank you)

Not that there is anything wrong with a bigger cal. either, it's just not mandatory for the average CCW'er
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Old June 21, 2008, 05:23 PM   #64
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Quote:
Quote:
Also David killed the Goliath with a rock but I am much more accurate with a .22 than with a sling and it is much faster reloading.
Don't have to reload a rock if it's in your hands. And I'm pretty accurate with a rock that way.
I really hope I don't get so close to the BG that I can hit him in the head with the rock still in my hand. Of course if you are that close you can always pistol whup him.
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Old June 21, 2008, 10:56 PM   #65
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32 S&w

That"s what I've been carrying since I registered the gun yesterday. It is a very old five shot H&R revolver that belonged to my mother's deceased uncle and she gave it to me. I am well aware of the limitations of this pistol but it will have to do until I can turn loose the coin for something better. I have a Browning 7 shot semi 380 but it is too heavy to suit me for pocket carry and I have yet to find a holster that has what I want off the rack. Once sweatshirt weather gets here I should have a nice Blackhawk holster for my Beretta 92FS and that's what I'll carry. Since I have spent 57 years of my life unarmed, that little 32 S&W I consider a big improvement!

Last edited by Sportdog; June 22, 2008 at 10:26 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old June 21, 2008, 11:35 PM   #66
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From a book used in California for CCW class study:

Quote:
Not Looking to Die

by A. Grant Macomber


Quote:
INTRODUCTION

by Bill Sansom

The first bullet crashed through the door and hit me just above my belt buckle. It ripped through my abdomen, shattered my right hip at the joint, and careened down my leg bone, blasting my leg muscles into a jellied, bloodshot pulp. The impact of the .44 Mag. 240 gr. jacketed hollow point blew me off the three-step trailer house porch. I slammed against the side of a parked car and slid in a heap in six inches of new-fallen snow.

I had somehow managed to draw my Smith & Wesson .357 as the bullet hurled me through the air. But my arm was pinned under my stunned and broken body, the revolver still clenched tightly in my fist. The maniac who shot me stepped calmly out onto the porch. “I told you cops to leave me alone,” he snarled.

He slowly thumbed back the hammer of his single action six gun. The soft clicking of the revolving cylinder echoed off the walls of the tightly packed trailers in the frigid December dawn. He squinted down his outstretched arm at the Deputy Sheriff star on my jacket.

The second shot punched into my chest, disintegrating a two-inch piece of rib bone, searing a white hot railroad spike of fire through my left lung, dislocating my shoulder. The force of the bullet lifted me and skidded me a foot backwards. It also freed my pinned gun hand. My first two shots bracketed the third button down on his faded red union suit.

His third shot ricocheted off the frozen ground between my splayed out legs. The mushroomed slug tore out a swath of muscle and severed an artery just above my left knee.

My third 158 gr. jacketed hollow point caught him in his right elbow, spinning him backwards into his trailer. I kept pulling the trigger until there was nothing left but the snap of my firing pin falling on spent casings.

I heard the man thrashing around inside the trailer house, and I did not know how badly he was hit or even if he was hit. I attempted to reload my Model 19 S&W using two six-shot dump boxes on my gun belt. All the rounds fell out and rolled off my body into the snow. I was stunned and badly broken up by the bullets that had hit me. I could not raise my left arm or even lift my head up. I opened the cylinder of my six-shot revolver and with my right arm reached over as far as I could and shook the empty casings out. Then I lay the gun on my chest and felt around in the snow until I luckily found one live round. I poked the round into the cylinder and rolled the cylinder on my chest until it would put the round under my firing pin when cocked. I cocked my pistol and waited.

The man came crawling out of his trailer doorway and glared down at me lying on my back in the snow, his .44 magnum revolver cocked and clenched in his right fist. I lifted my revolver, took careful aim – and shot him through the temple.

The reason that I remember all this so clearly is that the incident has been played over almost every night these last twenty-four years in my dreams. I will never again be the second guy shooting.

I had been shooting 50 rounds a week of handloads just before that incident. I had a portable silhouette target that I carried in the trunk of my patrol car, and I would drive out into the brush and shoot some rounds from every conceivable position except flat on my back. My service revolver became an extension of my arm, and I could hit a bullseye five out of six out to 15 yards, draw and fire.

A handgun should never be used as a deterrent, but, if needed, it should be drawn and fired immediately, and always used to kill - not to wound or frighten your attacker. I can tell you several stories about misused handguns, and the grief the users suffered because of their lack of resolve.

Nobody knows if they are capable of killing another human being - until they do. Some people, maybe you are one of them, think a concealed weapons permit is an insurance policy against being mugged, raped, robbed, or embarrassed in front of your loved ones. Your license to carry a concealed weapon will give you a false sense of security. You are now armed. You may even think you are dangerous. In reality, the permit is likely to increase your chances of becoming a victim of a violent act. Announcing, "I’ve got a gun," is one of the quickest ways that I know of to get yourself killed.

You are a responsible, law abiding citizen. You are probably a business or professional person. You have a family, own a home. You are educated, reliable, and conscientious. You are not a law enforcement officer, private investigator, or a security guard. They are already licensed to carry a weapon; and they are also trained to know when and how to use it. You, on the other hand, have a concealed weapon permit because you are either afraid, or you are looking for trouble. There are no other reasons for a civilian to have a concealed weapon.

After you get the permit, your weapon will most likely remain under your car seat, in your desk drawer, or in the bottom of your purse. There will not be a round in the chamber. It may even be completely unloaded, the bullets hidden in some other place – for safety. You may have last shot the weapon two months, six months, a year ago, or when you shot it to qualify for your permit. But now you are unafraid because you have a possibly loaded gun – somewhere. Suddenly, the trouble you were looking out for is looking at you – while you are looking for your gun. There is only one place to have a concealed weapon: on your body. There is only one way to handle a weapon: often. And there is only one way to react to trouble: instinctively.

Just having a gun is not enough to protect you or your loved ones. You must know how to use a gun. You must be able to recognize danger in time to react immediately and lethally. You must prepare yourself beforehand, mentally and emotionally, to take another human life, and to face the legal and psychological consequences of your decision, so that you will not have to think about it in the split second that you will have to live or die.

This book is filled with real-life situations, where a gun was not enough, where it had to be mixed with blood and courage to stop a determined, often deranged, attacker. Read this book carefully. Put yourself into the shoes of those who stood fast, who faced the ultimate test of bravery. And lie in the street for awhile with those who lost their lives -- even though they were armed.


Bill Sansom
Saint Regis, Montana

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=18


Sometimes a .22 is not enough. Sometimes three hits with a .44 magnum, or .357 magnum are not enough. All things considered, I'd rather be holding the magnum.
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Old June 22, 2008, 12:52 AM   #67
Bill DeShivs
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Figures it would be used in California!
Bullet impacts don't "blow you off steps, spin you around, or move your body a foot in the snow."
I'm sure it must have seemed that way, but physics says otherwise.
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Old June 22, 2008, 02:44 AM   #68
.300H&H
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Anecdotal... I know of a shooting some years ago that went like this: A drug dealer in a housing project was approached by a 'customer' <another thug>and as they were exchanging a $20 bill/crack, the 'customer' whipped out a .22 mouse and with one quick shot to the dealers head... instantly ended the dealer's life. Nasty. I'll agree the little .22 mouseguns...aren't the optimum choice...but they can be very lethal.


Whenever I practiced/plinked with my .22 Bobcat, it was hard in a sense 'not' to pop off almost the entire magazine ie. it's a gun that's so easy to control...it begs for rapid multishots... It's a gun for close quarters, to be pulled out quickly and easily from total concealment. It's not a gun to be used in a gunfight where one is trying to suppress fire , shoot through, or knock down something. Its easy concealment, however, gives it a great tactical viability.


Personally I think a .38 snubbie is hard to beat - and is the most practical self defense handgun. However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing.
One thing I don't like about the little mouse .22's - is that they can jam, and I see a lot of'em<moreso in years past than today ie. there seems to be more avid women shooters today> given to women and newbie shooters...as a primary selfdefense gun. A lot of these shooters never really practiced using the guns...and seemed to just stash them away...and I would be concerned about their being able to really use the guns effectively in a real selfdefense situation.
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Old June 22, 2008, 02:54 AM   #69
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Anecdotal... I know of a shooting some years ago that went like this: A drug dealer in a housing project was approached by a 'customer' <another thug>and as they were exchanging a $20 bill/crack, the 'customer' whipped out a .22 mouse and with one quick shot to the dealers head... instantly ended the dealer's life. Nasty. I'll agree the little .22 mouseguns...aren't the optimum choice...but they can be very lethal.


Whenever I practiced/plinked with my .22 Bobcat, it was hard in a sense 'not' to pop off almost the entire magazine ie. it's a gun that's so easy to control...it begs for rapid multishots... It's a gun for close quarters, to be pulled out quickly and easily from total concealment. It's not a gun to be used in a gunfight where one is trying to suppress fire , shoot through, or knock down something. Its easy concealment, however, gives it a great tactical viability.


Personally I think a .38 snubbie is hard to beat - and is the most practical self defense handgun. However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing.
One thing I don't like about the little mouse .22's - is that they can jam, and I see a lot of'em<moreso in years past than today ie. there seems to be more avid women shooters today> given to women and newbie shooters...as a primary selfdefense gun. A lot of these shooters never really practiced using the guns...and seemed to just stash them away...and I would be concerned about their being able to really use the guns effectively in a real selfdefense situation.
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Old June 22, 2008, 08:46 AM   #70
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Assassination (as in your drug dealer story) is much different than self defense especially when behind in the reactionary curve.

Quote:
However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing.
This just sounds so sad considering my life or the life of my children could be at stake. I deserve better....they surely deserve better, even if it is harder to hide.

I make the sacrifice of learning tactics, practicing them, practicing with my firearm, and going through the trouble of getting permitted only to carry something that is "a lot better than nothing". Carrying a weapon which isn't consistently capable of doing what needs to be done to stop a bad guy given the dynamics of a self defense situation is akin to a father doing his job half arsed IMO.

One thing is resorting to a mouse as the only option available. Its totally another to voluntarily choose them as primary when bigger is available....IMO.
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Old June 22, 2008, 09:43 AM   #71
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"I could quickly pop off 7 rounds from my little .22 Beretta Bobcat...and I can't imagine anyone standing on the receiving end within 10 ft. who could withstand such a nasty unloading. Imagine 7 quick .22/.25 acp shots at close range to one's torso. That's nasty and very lethal. It might not be the optimum primary weapon...but it's still a powerful form of self-defense."

Thats the real world. Ask a coroner what .22lr com wounds are really like.
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Old June 22, 2008, 11:53 AM   #72
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We all know that ALL firearms are lethal.

Head shots do NOT make up a large percentage of intial hits in a dynamic situation.

Geesh!

Remind me to not eat any more cheese lest I become comfortable with the mickey mouse genre of handguns...
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Old June 22, 2008, 01:44 PM   #73
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On the other hand ... I recall a few years ago the shooting death of Trooper Mark Coates. He was involved in a traffic stop. The BG pulled a .25 habdgun and the trooper took one hit. He emptied his .357 magnum revolver into the BG. Today that BG sits in prison, while many morn the loss of Trooper Mark Coates.

One hit with a .25 results in death .. six hits with a .357 magnum produces only injury. I do not even try to understand it.
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Old June 22, 2008, 03:13 PM   #74
Chui
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"I do not even try to understand it."
It's easy. It's all about placement.
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Old June 22, 2008, 03:14 PM   #75
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Quote:
You, on the other hand, have a concealed weapon permit because you are either afraid, or you are looking for trouble. There are no other reasons for a civilian to have a concealed weapon.
Lost me right there...
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