The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 11, 2008, 07:26 PM   #26
relee
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Location: Pompano Bch., Fla.
Posts: 63
Any LEO will tell you that the call they dread most is responding to domestic violence. Normal people can suddenly do crazy things. As the economic situation in this country deterioriates I expect we will see more of the "suicide by cop" scenarios being played out...
relee is offline  
Old June 11, 2008, 07:34 PM   #27
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,464
I'm of the camp of the .380 minimum, though I regularly carry a .32 ACP. I really needed a pocket gun, but when I got my P32, there was no such thing as a P3AT. Now that Ruger has introduced the LCP, I fully intend to purchase one. Soon, the .380 will be my minimum, at last. I also believe that any gun is better than no gun, and have carried, on occasion, a PT22. I could hit what I aimed at, and I didn't really feel vastly undergunned with a full load of Yellow Jackets. But even that wasn't "pocket" enough for me, and though the lowly .32 is no .380, I feel it's close, and better than the .25 or the .22, even in their best loadings. I doubt my P32 will go up for sale, it's served me well, and will no doubt take it's rightful place in a tiny corner of the safe, and shot maybe once a year.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old June 11, 2008, 09:09 PM   #28
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,153
Hard Ball,

The SOE usually was either doing an assination, taking out a guard, or striking first (and if possible without warning.) And they did not use hide out pocket guns like a Kel-Tec or Raven or Beretta 950, etc....

Also most SD and police shootings start with the cops and good guys reacting to an attack, not preemptive strikes.

Also add the idea of winchestering your .22 at one person does not leave you with any ammo to combat a second attacker (not to mention today bullet proof vest are more common.)

I'm sure 10 shots at very close range is fatial. But....
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old June 11, 2008, 09:27 PM   #29
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,553
The original question asks about using a .22 or .25 for the primary defense gun: Erik answered it best I think.

"Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?

"The standard answer is "because there are better options. . . . . for most there are better options."
__________________

The .25 is notorious for not having enough power to do much but noisily exit a too short barrel, . . . and the .22 is equally notorious for ammo that goes click instead of bang.

Having said that, . . . and being a dyed in the wool 1911 carrier, . . . I still would not feel undergunned in a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 defensive scenario if I had my son's Browning Buckmark. It holds 10 in the mag, . . . and I can put all 10 of em (if no misfires are present) in the 9 in paper plate at 21 feet in something like 4 seconds. I actually get much better overall scores with this gun than my 1911.

The person who would carry the .22 or .25 just has to know their limitations, including an almost dire necessity to put em all in the snot locker, . . . carry a spare mag at least, . . . be proficient at clearing misfires quickly, . . .

Personally, . . . if someone drew a Browning Buckmark or a Ruger on me, . . . I would be seriously careful of what I did, . . . knowing the lethality of 10 each .22 Long Rifle rounds.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old June 11, 2008, 10:30 PM   #30
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
Quote:
"Yeah, a .22 in hand beats a .45 at home in the safe. You can't always conceal/open carry the firepower you'd like to have with you."
Yada, yada, yada. First rule is bring enough gun. if you don't you may very well "deserve" the potential outcome...

I wish people would drop that stupid notion. It's YOUR life so pack the damned gun.

Tell yourself: Self , you will get into a fight today that will require that you actually fire your weapon. After you've done this then and only then open your safe and choose.
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783

Last edited by Chui; June 12, 2008 at 06:15 PM.
Chui is offline  
Old June 11, 2008, 10:45 PM   #31
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Chui, You took the words right out of my mouth.


Dwight, Snot locker might not be available. That 9inch plate at the range vs during the gun fight........could be harder to hit.
threegun is offline  
Old June 12, 2008, 12:53 PM   #32
Mikeyboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Posts: 1,231
An old cop I met told me a funny story.

He is working in a bad urban area and gets a call of armed men trying to break into house. He arrives and finds a little old lady in her livingroom standing over two dead guys. She was packing a POS .25 pocket gun and took out two guys with a single shot each.

On the flip side there are multiple stories of people shaking off hits from a .45 or a .44.

Moral of the story, .22 and .25 are lethal and having a 4 in front of the caliber does not mean you carry a death ray.
Mikeyboy is offline  
Old June 12, 2008, 01:23 PM   #33
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
The SOE usually was either doing an assination, taking out a guard, or striking first (and if possible without warning.) And they did not use hide out pocket guns like a Kel-Tec or Raven or Beretta 950, etc....
Correct. The .22's used by SOE were usually High Standard HD's or Colt Woodsman pistols with about 3" to 4" of barrel before the bullet engaged the supressor. That extra barrel helps the .22lr generate a lot more energy and velocity than the typical 2" Minx/Bobcat barrel. If you want something comparable, you should carry a Buckmark or a Ruger Mk. II or III with a bull barrel. But, for the size & weight, you can carry something more effective.

Another thing, for a long time, .22lr bullets came in two types: bare lead and copper-washed lead. The big advantage .25ACP and .22WMR had over .22lr was that the first two had actual jacket bullets. Today, you can get jacketed .22lr bullets. But all other ammo has advanced, too.

Nowadays, .32ACP or .32H&R Mag is the floor for SD loads....although a good .22WMR is pretty impressive, too...
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......
seeker_two is offline  
Old June 12, 2008, 03:54 PM   #34
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,153
Quote:
Moral of the story, .22 and .25 are lethal and having a 4 in front of the caliber does not mean you carry a death ray.
There is no death ray except... a death ray.

Nice to have a powerfull handgun, but people have stood and fought after being hit with 12 guage slugs, buckshot, 30-06, and I have no doubt a few hit with .50 BMG or ever bigger.

Still, I prefer something more than a mousegun.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old June 12, 2008, 06:18 PM   #35
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
Since everyone knows that people have survived all manner of hits from all manners of calibers, including .223 JHP, .308 JHP and 12 gauge Brenneke slugs why in HELL would you CHOOSE to "go hunting" with a god... awful "mouse gun"??? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!!
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Old June 13, 2008, 05:09 AM   #36
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Because that little old lady instantly stopped 2 men with a 25acp.

Me I understand that the bad guy will be moving, canting, bobbing, and weaving. Getting that perfect shot might not be possible.

Extremes can be listed from both sides but they are still not the norm. When the dust settles and the smoke clears handguns with cartridges heavy enough to penetrate deep and smash bone will be on top.

When that terrible day arrives for the unlucky WP holder to actually have to use the cw I promise all will be wishing for more power. The guys who already carry as potent a handgun as is available and concealable will only be able to wish for a long gun.
threegun is offline  
Old June 13, 2008, 11:30 AM   #37
Hard Ball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 1999
Location: California
Posts: 3,925
"Also add the idea of winchestering your .22 at one person does not leave you with any ammo to combat a second attacker "

Don't worry. My pistol was a .22lr PPK/s 10 shot Interarms version and i carried two spare 10 round magazines.
__________________
"I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."
Hard Ball is offline  
Old June 13, 2008, 11:29 PM   #38
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
Quote:
Extremes can be listed from both sides but they are still not the norm.
I don't care for "the norm". I own a firearm due to "extremes". I've never been robbed or assaulted or had a home invasion. All of those are "extremes" for me and having enough gun, knife, martial arts, dog to deal with these "extremes" makes me CALM or much more calm than not. Besides, in the extreme case you will have to drop the hammer and I, for one, don't want a freakin' .22LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, .380, or .38 Special to defend my hide. And why should I when there's 9mm and .45 ACP readily available?

We agree that at the end of the day the cartridge must be able to offer sufficient penetration (and expansion).

"Those who traverse the planet with a only mouse gun on his person better make damned sure that the planet is only infested with mice." From bad Jeff Cooper to me in a dream...
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Old June 14, 2008, 07:50 AM   #39
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
And why should I when there's 9mm and .45 ACP readily available?
You forgot .40, 10mm, .44 mag, and .454.
Keltyke is offline  
Old June 14, 2008, 10:05 AM   #40
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
I could use the .40 S&W in an M&P or HK full size. The rest of them overpenetrate and if you're being shot at they are horrible for shot recovery.

You forgot .357 Sig which is like a LOUD +P 9mm with more flash.

I'll take the .44 Magnum while in the woods, though.
__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Old June 14, 2008, 12:43 PM   #41
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 2,599
I have experimented with killing roosters and animals with different .22LR ammo.
I have experimented with increasing the power of 25acp through +P++ handloads.

Quickshock ammo with pre fragmented bullets works the best for 22LR. See attached photo.
They have now licensed this design to CCI.

I can actually get 25acp to kick hard with hot handloads. Too hot and the primer falls out and the case gets stuck in the chamber [there is no extractor].

Still, the Kel-Tec P3AT .380 weighs 10 ounces loaded, and so there is no real reason to carry a 22 or 25, as they are typiically no lighter. An NAA revolver may be 4 ounces, but the 10 ounce Kel-Tec...I can't feel it right now in my pocket.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GroundSquirrellsQuickShockDSCF0006small.jpg (67.3 KB, 88 views)
Clark is offline  
Old June 14, 2008, 03:04 PM   #42
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,657
I'm "sorry". Actually, I'm NOT.

Bring enough f$#*) gun or stay home. Period.

:barf:

What the Hell has happened to our society that a man cannot "comfortably" carry a loaded pistol?

__________________
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt, 1783
Chui is offline  
Old June 15, 2008, 02:14 AM   #43
.300H&H
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Posts: 215
Overpenetration and noise issues...can make the .22/.25acp more apealing.
If I'm in an apartment/condo where all that's separating me from a neighbor - is a couple of layers of sheetrock, I don't want a .357mag.or .40S&W or a 9mm. Also, when a firearm is fired indoors the noise and muzzle flash are magnified.


I had a Beretta 21a that I sold - and it was a kind of love/hate pistol ie. I really liked the concealbility and the way it fit in my hand. It was a very convenient firearm and fun to shoot. However, I hated the lack of confidence I had when carrying it ie. it seemed to work flawlessly with one brand of ammo - but it jammed with everything else...and I always had to wonder whether it would work flawlessly in a real crisis or just reintroduce me to Murphy's Law.


I kinda like the little .32's and would like to see more .32 revolvers. I think the .25acp could be improved. I love the size and feel of the Beretta Tomcat .32acp - but I have no confidence in the gun ie. too many reports of reliability problems.' It's a shame ie. I have come close to buying one quite a few times...but just couldn't trust them.
.300H&H is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 08:57 AM   #44
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Noise shouldn't be a factor in choosing a self defense weapon. Damage to the ear occurs at DB levels over 85db. The lowly 22lr from a handgun chimes in at 134db. Damage is occurring with it from every shot.


Quote:
CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 " barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 " barrel 163.2dB
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB


CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA

.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB

Recall that sounds over 85-90 dB can lead to permanent hearing damage without hearing protection. As can be seen from Table 2, even firing a .22LR (134 dB) has the potential of causing permanent, irreversible, inner ear damage.
They all hurt your inner ear. So since we are only going to use a gun without hearing protection to defend ourselves from death or great bodily injury a few db's aren't going to change much.
threegun is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 09:21 AM   #45
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 2,599
There are much more important things in determining ear damage than the difference between cartridges; the effective reflection of the environment and the ear's state at the time. That is why the Eskimos went deaf, as they were shooting at water after waiting in silence.

Also, the measurement from cartridge to cartridge is going to be repeatable in a relative way, being a function of muzzle pressure and bore+chamber volume, but the absolute measurement is very difficult to control. When someone writes down 155.0 db re ubar, that may be one data point from one set up, but to get 4 digits of replicate able resolution, that would be one elaborate test set up in the lab, certainly not at the range.
Clark is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 09:35 AM   #46
dogngun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2002
Location: South east PA
Posts: 552
Over the years, I have found 4 very easy to carry handguns, small, easily carried in a jeans pocket, or coat pocket. 2 are .22's, one is an old .25, and one a .32 ACP. I can shoot any of them very accurately, all can be carried in a "ready" state, and all are very reliable. I sometimes carry one of them as a second gun tyo a .45, but occasionally they are primary, although the .25 seldom is.
The .22 auto is a S&W 2214, the .22 revolver is an old High Standard Sentinel 9 shot (with 2 HKS speedloaders), the .25 is a very old Italian Tanfoglio, the .32 is an FEG.

I enjoy shooting them, and I practice with them as much as with my big guns, also practice with them in the off hand. It might be only a .25, but 7 rounds in 1 1/2" will slow someone down.

mar
dogngun is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 12:07 PM   #47
R1145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 340
Life is about compromise

Everything is a trade-off: Weight, bulk, power, capacity vs. concealment, blast, cost, availability, etc.

If I were facing an unarmed opponent, a "mouse-gun" would be a definite advantage, whereas I might feel vulnerable with that same weapon going up against a guy with a full-powered handgun. Now, think about having that full-powered handgun on a field of battle where everyone else has rifles. What about taking on a tank with a rifle? You get my drift.

You use what you have. If you have the luxury of choice, you rationally analyze the risk, and choose accordingly.

A fairly dangerous man of my acquaintance would carry one of those tiny NAA .22 revolvers when off duty, when it was hot and he was wearing shorts. This guy could probably beat up most people, and I guess he figured the mouse-gun would take care of those he couldn't. If the opponent were armed, you probably wouldn't have much more than an even chance regardless of whether you were armed or not, without reloads, armor, etc, and who wants to schlep that stuff to the mall...?

That said, I agree there are better choices for me personally than .22 or .25 "mouse-guns". I carry a .38+P J-frame, mostly, and I know I'd be SOL if I got caught in a multiple armed opponent, take-over robbery-type situation.

You makes your choices and takes your chances.
R1145 is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 02:49 PM   #48
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,543
Quote:
"Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?"
You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks.
Doyle is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 03:32 PM   #49
Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2005
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 100
I saw a classic statement in another topic on another forum.... "it beats harsh words." That is the ONLY reason I'd carry a .22 or .25 ACP and indeed has been the only reason I've done so.
__________________
Sincerely,

Hobie
Shooting With Hobie
Hobie is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 03:35 PM   #50
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
I dont go into harms way, so a itty bitty pocket .32 suits me jest fine....I may even switch to a .22 cuz its smaller

WildfreetshirtforwhoeverinsertsmyfavoritelineaboutthissubjectintothisdiscussionAlaska ™
Wildalaska is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.17463 seconds with 8 queries