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Old August 3, 2008, 02:02 PM   #76
Shane Tuttle
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People I know(the few I know that carry puny anyway) carry puny because they will not carry bigger from laziness. Better to have any gun than no gun. The difference is they know that they are not as well armed as with a larger caliber weapon. They understand that their choice to carry puny might come back to bit them on the rump.
...and carrying a bigger gun with a more powerful cartridge can just as well do the same....

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I find it hard to believe that folks can't conceal many of the mid sized handguns offered in heavier calibers. I believe they opt to carry smaller form laziness and to some extent from being encouraged by the bold talk on TFL. Some folks simply can't handle bigger or can't conceal bigger because of forced attire and those folks have no choice. The rest are IMO walking contradictions.
The bottom line is that you don't know what's best for the other person. Only that person knows. All you can do is base your opinion on observation. One is extremely arrogant in thinking just because a 6' 2" 230lb. male is perfectly capable carrying a full size Glock chambered in 10mm. The mental acuteness in a defensive situation cannot be judged by anyone exept ones self. With that, the effectiveness of using a gun comes into play in a big way.

I'd rather have a firearm that I'm extremely comfortable using in any situation that I can imagine in a gun fight even if it's a .380 rather than compromising and settling for a .45ACP. I would tend to believe the effective use of a gun and your brain FAR outweighs the cartridge you have.


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You tout history and probabilities and I will point out what calibers every profession that might face an armed foe will not carry as primary. You push statistics and I will point out ballistics. You suggest folks carry what is convenient and I will suggest they carry what gives them the better chance of surviving.
What's your definition of "profession"? Not very many citizens make their profession in firearms use. Ballistics are a bit down the line in consideration of what gun/cartridge choice to use. Your opinion of what's involved to have a better chance of surviving is different than others. Just because it doesn't match your criteria doesn't make it fact.

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There is a segment on TFL who believe that there is little or no difference, in terms of self preservation with a firearm, between a mouse gun 22/25 and heavier calibers 38 and up. They tout statistics that show most criminals flee at the mere sight of a gun or after a few rounds are fired even if none of the rounds would have forced incapacitation. I just worry that this statistical shell game, by very reputable members, is going to steer folks who would have carried bigger to carry smaller. Then when that already rare event does happen in its most rare form ( a criminal who needs to be put down forcefully by gun fire) they don't have enough gun.
I actually do believe statistics can back up the claim that "brandishing" a firearm has deterred more crimes from being committed than actual use of a firearm.

I don't necessarily advocate to carry the smallest cartridge available. However, I also think a handgun is a ****-poor excuse of a tool for self defense. I do think carrying one (or two) is a great idea. But, my personal belief is just about any common cartridge that the general public can effectively use isn't a good 1st line of defense.

But, what do I know? I'm just a slack-jawed yokel that likes XD's over Glocks. That right there should lose all credibility in your eyes...
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Old August 3, 2008, 03:17 PM   #77
imp
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Everything is a compromise. If I really felt like it, I could conceal a S&W 500Mag. Most of the time, I carry my kel-tec and a spare magazine. Occasionally, I carry my NAA mini-revolver only. Not saying its the best weapon for a gunfight, but its better than nothing when I can't carry anything larger, or feel the need to carry anything larger.

In my humble opinion, being armed an proficient comes first, the caliber of the gun is a distant second.
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Old August 3, 2008, 03:48 PM   #78
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It almost sounds like some people here want all small guns to be discontinued and made to dissapear. Now i would like some clarification on one issue here. Are we talking small gun/decent caliber or small gun small caliber.

I for dont think anyone is underarmed with a snubby in .38spc or a small auto in 9mm. Now the issue of small gun over larger one is something that i have to deal with every now and then. There are times when i go places and i have to be dressed up. Now unless i want to be uncomfortable all night ill keep my large framed gun and wear my suite jacket all night long. Or I could go to a smaller pocket auto and still be armed and still be comfortable.

There are just to many situations that dont allow the carry of larger arms do to the method of dress, or occasion that a smaller arm would be wiser.

Being that im a big man i sweat alot, so i have to beable to mitigate my heat. When i get dressed up, sure i could were my larger framed auto, and sometimes do, if i know im going to be someplace outside or air conditioned. But if i know im going to get hot, then the small auto gets the nodd.

Unless someone comes up with a way for me, and others to carry larger framed autos when our method of dress makes them uncomfortable, or difficult do to circumstances im all ears.

Another thing is, why rag on people who like how they dress. having to buy one size larger clothing and then going around with that crappy look is just disconcerting some times. Having a firearm that gives one adaquate protection while allowing them to dress how they feel and the way they feel they look best and feel the best should be up to them. Someone famous said "judge lest ye be judged." That kinda applies here.
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Old August 3, 2008, 06:35 PM   #79
threegun
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Tuttle,
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...and carrying a bigger gun with a more powerful cartridge can just as well do the same....
Agreed however you have eliminated cartridge power from the equation.

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I'd rather have a firearm that I'm extremely comfortable using in any situation that I can imagine in a gun fight even if it's a .380 rather than compromising and settling for a .45ACP. I would tend to believe the effective use of a gun and your brain FAR outweighs the cartridge you have
It does but if your cartridge lacks the ability to penetrate deeply or through bones, both of the above are for not.

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What's your definition of "profession"? Not very many citizens make their profession in firearms use. Ballistics are a bit down the line in consideration of what gun/cartridge choice to use. Your opinion of what's involved to have a better chance of surviving is different than others. Just because it doesn't match your criteria doesn't make it fact.
I included that only as an example. Folks who expect trouble only carry puny as a BUG. Just trying to make a point. Carry what you want.....if it can't penetrate oh well.........to late.

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I actually do believe statistics can back up the claim that "brandishing" a firearm has deterred more crimes from being committed than actual use of a firearm.
I agree however basing everything on the fact that most will give up the attack at the sight of the gun is just not tactically sound IMO after all statistics say you will never need to even brandish your gun yet we still carry.

BTW As a Glock fan you only lost points in the firearms taste category LOL.
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Old August 3, 2008, 08:33 PM   #80
Shane Tuttle
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Agreed however you have eliminated cartridge power from the equation.
It does but if your cartridge lacks the ability to penetrate deeply or through bones, both of the above are for not.
I included that only as an example. Folks who expect trouble only carry puny as a BUG. Just trying to make a point. Carry what you want.....if it can't penetrate oh well.........to late.
I agree however basing everything on the fact that most will give up the attack at the sight of the gun is just not tactically sound IMO after all statistics say you will never need to even brandish your gun yet we still carry.
Actually, I placed cartridge power near the TOP of my consideration. However, no common handgun cartridge in the world will do you ANY good if you can't place the shot correctly to begin with. This holds the trump card over any other consideration. This goes back to my original statement that IMO one has to be comfortable using the firearm and being able to effectively use it. I'd rather have a .40S&W in a Service XD than a Ruger Blackhawk in .44Mag. If the situation arises, I know I'd be better in defending myself with the XD even though it's a much "weaker" cartridge.

Other people may be better suited to use a smaller gun chambered in .380 than one of bigger size. Better to be proficient in stopping your agressor with a .32 than marginal with a 10mm....

By the way, I'm not trying to advocate to carry the smallest cartridge out there just to be lazy. My point is that ANY cartridge that one chooses to carry is better that one is most proficient using is the best.
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Old August 3, 2008, 09:08 PM   #81
diginit
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Honestly. I have a 45. But I carry pepper spray. I have no desire to scatter someone's brains all over the street if they are unarmed. Since most SHTF situations are very close range, It seems sufficant. It's better that a taser or stun gun because the effects are long lasting. Whereas a stungun or taser will only subdue for 30 seconds. Then the attacker is active and really mad. If you use a gun, you tell the entire neiborhood your location and probably go to jail. Self defence or not. Unless you're a LEO. Not to mention the guilt trip. Even if you are LE.
Too bad that only honest citizens obey the law.
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Old August 4, 2008, 06:16 AM   #82
threegun
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Tuttle, My criteria for a carry gun is simple. First the weapon must be reliable and accurate. Second it must be capable of deep penetration and bone busting. Third it must have enough capacity to engage multiple foes. All in a package that I can shoot, handle, and conceal.

This of course assumes comfort and proficiency with your chosen handgun.

For me front line calibers are 38 special/9mm and up.

Mordis,
Quote:
Are we talking small gun/decent caliber or small gun small caliber.
We were debating puny calibers vs larger calibers. I feel that ones carry gun caliber should be able to do the basic things to our foe (human bad guy) to force them to stop an attack. This includes forcing them to stop via blood loss (the most reliable way to stop someone). This means that my caliber choice will have to penetrate deep and possibly through bones. Others feel that since the occasions of a bad guy needing to be forced to stop are rare, any caliber properly used will suffice.
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Old August 4, 2008, 11:35 AM   #83
David Armstrong
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People I know(the few I know that carry puny anyway) carry puny because they will not carry bigger from laziness.
There is always a problem with trying to make broad assumptions based on one's own limited knowledge. Let me ask you--are you lazy? After all, you are carrying a compact Glock .40 instead of a full-size Glock .45.
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Then give them all the facts not just your biased version.
Nothing biased about it. If you have actual facts that contribute to the discussion dealing with caliber for non-military, non-LE, typical CCW use, bring them out. The facts are very simple: Caliber is probably the least important variable in the DGU environment. Small calibers and guns have been shown to be just as effective at solving the problem as larger in virtually all DGU sitiuations. Historically there is no indication that smaller calibers lead to lower survival rates in CCW situations.
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Personally?? No stats today.....wonder why? You reckon they might agree with me?
No, I reckon it is because you used a term that is rather vague and can be interpreted by different folks in different ways. That requires a "personally" as it is a value condsideration. Lifetime need of a gun also varies significantly based on lifestyle. That is the problem. You keep mixing up specific issues and general issues and trying to treat them the same based on what you wnat them to show.
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Your facts are not wrong.
Then why do you keep arguing about them?
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Its your aggressive adherence to those stats that I have a problem with.
Strange. The facts are not wrong, but pointing them out to people and suggesting they understand them and use them when appropriate is a problem with you. That is where we differ. I think the best-informed person is most likely to make the best decision as opposed to someone who bases a decision on bad information or falsehoods.
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You live in a world of numbers but only when they support your argument.
In a long series of silly things you have siad, that has to be near the top. Not only is it silly on its face but it also happens to be factually incorrect.
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Numbers say you will never need your gun.....still you carry (against the numbers).
And that is part of that whole cost versus benefit argument that you seem incapable of understanding.
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Then you cry foul when others go against the numbers (and recommend carrying bigger calibers). Thats the nonsense David.
What is nonsense is you making things up all the time. I have not and will not do any such thing. I cry foul when you recommend things and then try to justify that recommendation on falsehoods and/or irrelevant statements.
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If making bigger deeper holes in an attacker doesn't equal a better chance at surviving...then I stand corrected.
So, once again we see that in spite of all your claims, when it comes down to actual facts you cannot provide any to support your position.
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Come to Florida and lets shoot together.
What has that got to do with experience, training, and actual DGUs? I'll note that once again you have tried to change the subject rather than respond to the issue.


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It does but if your cartridge lacks the ability to penetrate deeply or through bones, both of the above are for not.
And there is another claim you make that has no basis in reality. Most DGU incidents get taken care of without any great ability to penetrate deeply or through bone.
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Folks who expect trouble only carry puny as a BUG.
Folks who expect trouble generally don't rely on a handgun at all.
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...after all statistics say you will never need to even brandish your gun....
You keep making these wildly inaccurate statements. That one, like many others, is just flat wrong.
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Old August 4, 2008, 01:46 PM   #84
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Let me ask you--are you lazy? After all, you are carrying a compact Glock .40 instead of a full-size Glock .45.
Nope not lazy. The .40 and .45 both are capable of deep penetration and bone smashing....which is one of my criteria for a primary carry gun. I never said the gun or caliber had to be the biggest available only that the chosen caliber should be able to penetrate deeply and after bone is hit.

BTW David I own a couple of 21's and have easily concealed them in the past.

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Historically there is no indication that smaller calibers lead to lower survival rates in CCW situations.
How many civilian gun incidents have you reviewed? Where can this information be found? Most importantly what was the outcome for those rare few that caliber did matter?

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No, I reckon it is because you used a term that is rather vague and can be interpreted by different folks in different ways. That requires a "personally" as it is a value consideration. Lifetime need of a gun also varies significantly based on lifestyle. That is the problem. You keep mixing up specific issues and general issues and trying to treat them the same based on what you want them to show.
I said " History and all the information available shows we will likely never need a gun. ". Breaking down the odds based on personal lifestyle doesn't change my statements truth. "We" meaning fellow civilians and the odds are WE will never need a gun. In fact I would just love to see the stats that indicate that folks living a more risqué lifestyle are likely to need a gun in their lifetime. Since you always demand proof from me I thought you would provide some to back your claim.

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Then why do you keep arguing about them?
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Strange. The facts are not wrong, but pointing them out to people and suggesting they understand them and use them when appropriate is a problem with you. That is where we differ. I think the best-informed person is most likely to make the best decision as opposed to someone who bases a decision on bad information or falsehoods.
I don't argue about your stats rather your willingness to potentially place life and limb on those stats. You do so with a bias toward puny and against those of us who recommend heavier calibers.

BTW what are my "falsehoods" or "bad information"? I feel that a chosen caliber should be able to penetrate sufficiently, is that bad info? I'm concerned that puny will fail to stop a determined attacker and heavier gives you a better chance of doing so, is that a falsehood?

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In a long series of silly things you have said, that has to be near the top. Not only is it silly on its face but it also happens to be factually incorrect.
Factually incorrect???????You recommend and advocate puny based on stats. You even said your personal odds of needing a gun in your lifetime are higher because of your lifestyle compared to other civilians life style. You are the king of statistics and they do seem to govern your every move. From you telling us not to start a gunfight because the numbers say it will raise the odds of someone being harmed to you suggesting that civilian will likely never need to even fire a gun much less face a determined attacker......you are the odds king.

BTW Thanks for all the stats they are helpful at times.

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And that is part of that whole cost versus benefit argument that you seem incapable of understanding.
And part of the contradiction you seem incapable of understanding.

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What has that got to do with experience, training, and actual DGUs? I'll note that once again you have tried to change the subject rather than respond to the issue.
I've never been in a shoot out. I've never attended formal training. I don't work in law enforcement. What I can do is fight with a handgun, rifle, and shotgun better than most. My training is a soup of what many schools teach. My competitive experience is close to 2 decades worth. I have studied many shootout videos. I have tons of FOF against friends and co workers (although nothing formal). I can fight with a knife and bare handed better than most. SO WHAT!! Does that make my words any more true? Does your experience make your words more true? You made the statement to lower my credibility and strengthen your own. I just put my money were my mouth is.

And David I would welcome and treat you as a friend even though we seem to butt heads alot.
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Old August 4, 2008, 02:00 PM   #85
threegun
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Most DGU incidents get taken care of without any great ability to penetrate deeply or through bone.
Whats your point and how does it make deep penetration and bone smashing any less advantageous? Most folks will never need a gun either. The get through life without carrying one. Many still chose to carry one. Yet when I bring this up you ignore it.

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Folks who expect trouble generally don't rely on a handgun at all.
Only if they know when trouble is coming David. Since few have crystal balls they carry a sidearm. I have yet to see a single one carry puny.

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You keep making these wildly inaccurate statements. That one, like many others, is just flat wrong.
The fact that most folks never need a gun proves my statement. You are aware that most civilians get through life without ever needing a gun. Very few (on average) civilians carry a firearm. Of those who carry few will need said firearm ever. Think about it.
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Old August 4, 2008, 02:27 PM   #86
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I live in an area of southern Oregon where L.E. is not "just a click away" and 99% of the time response is up to me - so that's why I carry. There are any number of 4-legged creatures that one can come upon just off of the roadway (and some of those pesky 2-legged "animals" that you NEED to be armed when you run into them). My carry choice is my S&W 40 cal. with a couple of spare mags.
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Old August 4, 2008, 02:41 PM   #87
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I carry because I can, and because I don't want fear to dictate when and where I can go "within reason". I don't go to bars, but if I want to go and grab some dinner late at night with the wife, I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to do so safely.

I carry a P3AT (although, I'm going to start carrying my P7M8 now that I have it) to work because of the dress code at the office. I am unable to conceal my HK USP Expert 45. I do that on the weekends or after hours. I know that there is a slight chance that I will need a gun this year (I think there was a post earlier stating that 1 in 275 or so are in a violent confrontation per year according to the FBI published stats) but that the chance that I'll need 45 caliber power are even less than that (significantly less). I feel protected carrying 13 rounds of .380 +p CorBon hollowpoints, that I know I can keep on a paper plate at 25 feet firing at a reasonably fast pace.

I don't need someone else to try to force their opinion of what I need to carry on me. I have no problem with stating your opinion, but once it's out there, let it go. You're only hurting your cause by badgering others in my opinion.

Don't quote me on the 1 in 275, that's just what I believe was posted earlier.
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Old August 4, 2008, 05:06 PM   #88
David Armstrong
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Nope not lazy. The .40 and .45 both are capable of deep penetration and bone smashing....which is one of my criteria for a primary carry gun.
So let's see...you are not lazy by compromising on the criteria that you think are important, but others are lazy because you don't agree with their criteria and compromise. Seems a litle odd.
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BTW David I own a couple of 21's and have easily concealed them in the past.
OK. Not sure what that has to do with anything, though. I own a couple of 1911s and have easily concealed them in the past. I've owned a S&W N-frame and easily concealed it in the past.
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How many civilian gun incidents have you reviewed?
Off the top of my head I'd say between 1500 and 2000. I'd try to be more precise but most of my office is still in storage while repairs from Hurricane Rita continue.
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Where can this information be found?
Some of it is academic in nature, but most of it can be found with just a little searching, depending on the data you are wanting to find. Lot's of it ends up in newpapers, "it happened to me" sections of magazines such as the NRA Armed Citizen column, various biographies, and so on.
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I said " History and all the information available shows we will likely never need a gun. ".
And I said that is pretty vague. "Likely never" might mean one thing to one person, something else to another.
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Breaking down the odds based on personal lifestyle doesn't change my statements truth.
Well yes, actually it does. See the above note.
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I would just love to see the stats that indicate that folks living a more risqué lifestyle are likely to need a gun in their lifetime.
Lifestyle is one of the prime indicators of likelihood of victimization. The fact that you don't know that info or don't understand how it applies is rather telling.
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I don't argue about your stats rather your willingness to potentially place life and limb on those stats.
Got some bad news for you. Everybody does that, in multiple ways. The problem with many is that they have no idea of what the actual stats are so they cannot make an informed decision.
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You do so with a bias toward puny and against those of us who recommend heavier calibers.
Nonsense. I have no bias toward small guns or large. If you want to carry a big gun, by all means do so. If you want to carry a small gun, by all means do so. Just realize that it really doesn't matter much in the overall scheme of things.
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BTW what are my "falsehoods" or "bad information"?
I think we just pointed out a couple of them right there. We can throw in your constant denial of the effectiveness of small calibers, your insistence that certain factors are important in DGU incidents that aren't and so on.
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Factually incorrect???????
Yes.
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You recommend and advocate puny based on stats.
Nope. Incorrect again. Pointing out that something is adequate for the job at hand is neither a recommendation nor an advocacy.
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You even said your personal odds of needing a gun in your lifetime are higher because of your lifestyle compared to other civilians life style.
Nope. Incorrect again. Starting to see the pattern?? I never said any such thing.
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You are the king of statistics and they do seem to govern your every move.
Nope. Incorrect again. Stats certainly come into play in deciding what to do (as is true of everybody) but they do not govern my every move. If so I wouldn't do all those things that are contra-indicated by the stats.
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And part of the contradiction you seem incapable of understanding.
Huh??? Gonna have to be a bit mosre specific there, as there is no contradiction indicated in the statement you have quoted.
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What I can do is fight with a handgun, rifle, and shotgun better than most.
And you know this how---given that you have never been in a gunfight or attended any training??
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My competitive experience is close to 2 decades worth.
Should I ever need information on how to play the shooting games, I will keep you in mind.
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SO WHAT!!
I agree, so what? But you are the one who posted it, not me. I fail to see anything of any relevance in it, but again, I didn't post it.
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Does your experience make your words more true?
When you have someone who has been in the field and is discussing what has actually occurred in actual incidents, yes, I would consider that information to be more accurate than someone whose experience has been playing games. By your own statement, you can find nothing wrong with my facts. I would consider somebody like Clint Smith, or John Farnam, or others of their ilk, to be better at describing and discussing what actually occurs during training and gunfights than somebody who has not trained and interacted with with many fighters.
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You made the statement to lower my credibility and strengthen your own.
No. I feel no need to sstrengthen my credibility. I'm pretty much an open book and have been doing this stuff a long time. But whenever someobody is going to talk about how important something is for a DGU, and how to survive shootouts, and other stuff like that I think it important to find out just where their ideas come from.
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Old August 4, 2008, 05:21 PM   #89
David Armstrong
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Whats your point
Umm, did you miss it? Let's try again: "Most DGU incidents get taken care of without any great ability to penetrate deeply or through bone."
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how does it make deep penetration and bone smashing any less advantageous?
I never said a thing about it being less or more advantageous. What I have said is that it rarely matters at all.
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Yet when I bring this up you ignore it.
No, that is incorrect. I have not ignored it, I have said over and over that is an issue of cost versus benefit. I realize you can't understand that for some reason, but I have said it. I will also point out a basic flaw in your premise, as getting through life without carrying a gun is very different from never needing a gun.
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I have yet to see a single one carry puny.
As we have mentioned before, your limited experience in this area is a poor way to decide what the broader implications and realities are.
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The fact that most folks never need a gun proves my statement.
First, as mentioined above, that is a questionable claim itself. But second, and more important, it does nothing to prove the false statement you gave, which was, "...after all statistics say you will never need to even brandish your gun." Statistics do not say that at all. Once again, you are incorrect.
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Think about it.
I did. Sounds like you agree with me that small calibers/guns are adequate for the great majority of DGU incidents.
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Old August 4, 2008, 05:43 PM   #90
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This has wandered significantly off topic from the first post in the thread, and civility is declining.

Closed.

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