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Old June 4, 2008, 11:41 AM   #51
NotAMonte86
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That's what happens when your mama does acid while pregnant with you.

I would expect nothing less from someone named Planet... or Leaf, Star, Whisper, or any other blatant tree-hugging hippie name. Too bad they haven't heard of the name Shower.
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Old June 4, 2008, 12:00 PM   #52
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I'm getting too old, fat, and slow to wrestle with protesters. Can I just kick him in the balls???
Same here, and yes you can...several times.
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Old June 4, 2008, 12:35 PM   #53
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Deleted Double Post

Last edited by vox rationis; June 4, 2008 at 04:11 PM.
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Old June 4, 2008, 12:38 PM   #54
vox rationis
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I'm getting too old, fat, and slow to wrestle with protesters. Can I just kick him in the balls???
Haha!

Or step on his toe, he's probably wearing Birkenstocks.

I love the pepper spray idea though!....I wonder if they make Organic Pepper Spray...


Like Johnny Lydon said:

"Never trust a hippie"
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Old June 4, 2008, 03:15 PM   #55
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I'm with BillCA, leaning towards TexasSeaRay. The sumbitch is not walking away unscathed, that much is guaranteed. If I don't know what's in that tank, he's being stopped.

Lance, thanks for the updates - now write a letter supporting your local coppers!

Cheers,

Bob James
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Old June 4, 2008, 05:26 PM   #56
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armoredman
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I'd hose him back with pepper spray.

I agree. This is most likely what I would do.
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Old June 4, 2008, 06:25 PM   #57
.300H&H
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According to the article, the protester was already handcuffed and on the ground and clearly subdued by 4 police officers BEFORE he was TAZED 2x's.


According to the article, the protester was clearly wearing a 'mock' exterminators outfit...and only claimed he was spraying 'poison' AFTER the confrontation with police... It wasn't poison and it wasn't presumed to be poison...and in the role of demonstrating...it was 'MOCK POISON.'
Poison wasn't the 'issue' inasmuch the 'confrontation' became the escalating issue...

If the protester was a right winger screaming in front of some clinic...
and resisting arrest, I would say the police would NOT be right to TAZE the
protester 2x's after beeing subdued. In the case of this left winger, I would also say the police are not right in TAZING the protestor 2x's after being subdued.

This is not a situation where you want to use a firearm. TAZERS are frequently misused. I think part of the problem is that because TAZERS are deemed nonlethal, some police tend to use them a bit too recklessly and hotheadedly without the same restraint or respect they might otherwise
show when using a fiream.

Not all police officers are good people, and not all protesters are good people. It could be a case of 4 below average police officers abusing a below average protester. Chose sides if you like, but no matter what side you chose, the use of a TAZER after someone is already subdued - is wrong no matter what the protester might have said or even alleged to have done.
Start recklessly tazing people at protests, and you will soon have a riots instead of protests.

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Old June 4, 2008, 07:11 PM   #58
Avenger11
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How about a double 12 gauge loaded with rock salt???
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Old June 4, 2008, 07:38 PM   #59
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300H&H -

I'd generally agree that someone on the ground in handcuffs does not need or deserve to be subjected to a Taser hit. There are exceptions, of course.

I've seen & handled guys in handcuffs who just won't quit. They try to kick, spit, bite, claw and anything else they can. Before stun devices were available, the SOP was just pin him to the ground with a knee in the back and let him exhaust himself. If he was too unruly for that option, you'd resort to "benediction by Mace®" and let that cool him off. If the suspect is kicking and flailing about hard enough, even in handcuffs, where officer's legs can be injured then tasing him might be appropriate.
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Old June 4, 2008, 10:51 PM   #60
.300H&H
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Yeah...there's a judgement call... and I too have seen firsthand some difficult situations in trying to subdue someone...and have written a few incident reports. I remember a situation years ago when I was helping escort someone to another wing of the building<an institutional building>when the person in custody<who was high as a kite and crazy>suddenly smacked the security guard in the back of the head. The security guard whirled around and reflexively smaked the person back in the face with his fist. I couldn't blame him ie. it was instinctual and reflexive, but it went waaaay against policy and there were many many witnesses. Had to be written up and the security guard lost his job. I've had an 'ugly perp' walk up to me and spit at me<he missed becaused I ducked well in the nick of time>but it's up to me to be the one who keeps cool.Like Barney Fife once said after a lesson from Andy: 'This badge just doesn't represent me; it represent the people...'


Personally, I don't like TAZERS, but it's not the tazer's fault; they're just so easy to misuse. If used properly, the tazer is a good thing to have...but there are some folks who seem to want an excuse to use one...and when 'group think' kicks in ,it seems the tazer gets used a bit too much... It's
a judgement call, but when the alleged perp.is already down and handcuffed,
that's not the time to start tazing him. It's almost as if the tazer becomes a kind of psychological validation for having taken the person down. Ya see we had to even taze him! Unfortunately, witnesses and cameras might tell another story.

What disturbs me though is that some folks seem to think a firearm was needed to handle the situation. :barf:
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Old June 5, 2008, 05:47 AM   #61
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I wonder why it is that armed people are expected to respond to provocations like these more rashly than unarmed people.
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Old June 5, 2008, 07:33 AM   #62
LanceOregon
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According to the article, the protester was already handcuffed and on the ground and clearly subdued by 4 police officers BEFORE he was TAZED 2x's.
I'm afraid that your statement here is totally false, unless you want to also claim that the police are lying about what happened.

If you look back at the first news report that I linked to, police say that they only had ONE hand of the man handcuffed, and the protester was wildly swinging his other arm, when they tased him.

Do you also believe that University of Florida student Andrew Meyer did not deserve to be tased by the University police? He was in the same exact situation, with many officers on top him, who were struggling to get him handcuffed.




A total of 6 officers were unable to subdue Meyer, before they tased him:





And when that case was reviewed by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, it was determined to not have been any abuse of power by the officers to have tased him. Here is a link to the report:

http://www.president.ufl.edu/inciden...ve-Summary.pdf

Meyer agreed to write letters of apology regarding his actions to everyone concerned, in exchange for all criminal charges against him being dropped. He is now back as a student at the University. See this article for details:

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/31/St...nt_is_so.shtml


The University of Florida Police actually showed restraint in the Meyer case. For they had a taser on him at the very start of the arrest, as you can see here in this photo:





They only tased him after he REPEATEDLY refused to obey their instructions and struggled with numerous officers while fighting them all the way to the back end of the auditorium.


.
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Old June 5, 2008, 07:42 AM   #63
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Every time I go to the Pac NW I turn on the news talk radio and hear a news report about some eco terrorist group torching houses, destroying construction equipment or otherwise carrying out attacks. It is almost always some group of young white kids with more money in their pockets than is good for them, no real jobs and no need to focus on school to get one. So if I see one of these overprivileged brats walking around in a exterminator get up and spraying people down with who knows what I am under no expectation to assume it is harmless. At the minimum it may be assumed to be destructive to clothing and a skin irritant. That alone warrants resistance, if not lethal then a full blast of OC in the face if needed.
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Old June 5, 2008, 07:43 AM   #64
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Meyer agreed to write letters of apology regarding his actions to everyone concerned, in exchange for all criminal charges against him being dropped. He is now back as a student at the University. See this article for details:
Hopefully the deal falls through if he commits another such act within 10 years. If he does the initial charges should be reinstated with a guilty plea. That SHOULD have been part of his agreement.
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Old June 5, 2008, 08:05 AM   #65
LanceOregon
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I wonder why it is that armed people are expected to respond to provocations like these more rashly than unarmed people
Well, that was my reason for posting this incident. We need to know both when to make use of our weapon, and also when not to do so.

It is a huge responsibility to carry a gun.

.
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Old June 5, 2008, 02:16 PM   #66
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Looks like the complaint letters have started.

This letter complains about the electrocution of University Students:


http://media.www.dailyemerald.com/me...ntedstoriestab


You can see in this letter the sort of 1st Amendment argument that is being made to say that this sort of activity was legal.


P.S. - How could any parents manage to name their child "Planet" ???

.
I'm so glad I live in Texas and not Oregon. It's interesting to read through the thread and see how Texans respond versus those from OR & CA-type states.

Shane
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Old June 5, 2008, 04:46 PM   #67
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Spraying me or any of my family with an unknown substance is NOT 'political protest'. It is assault. Telling me it is poison would make it a deadly assault and will be met with deadly force.
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Old June 5, 2008, 06:20 PM   #68
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"I'd hose him back with pepper spray."
Hell, I like you. You can ride shotgun with me anyday, dude. :thumbsup:
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Old June 5, 2008, 08:39 PM   #69
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I didn't see where it said that everybody knew it was some retarded hippie just dressed up trying to make a point. If he had a sign that said "I'm a dumb hippie trying to make a point" I probaly still wouldn't have believed him and thought it was still a terrorist. Because he is a terrorist for what he did. He dressed the part of a man spraying poison and acted like a man spraying poison then he is a man spraying poison. I think down at gun point till the police arrived, or shooting if he sprayed me after that, or certaintly my kid or wife. I think he should be tried as a terrorist and imprisoned. There are smarter and better ways to get your point across.
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Old June 5, 2008, 11:03 PM   #70
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There were a lot of protest signs at the event. Unfortunately, I cannot find any press photos showing it. But I did see news video, and it looked clear to me that a protest was going on.

The problem here is that the police and the demonstrators have such a drastically different view of the incident. Protesters are now claiming that the fellow was tasered three times. And they are claiming that the police violently slammed his head into the pavement repeatedly, and were beating him.

They also claim that neither Van Ornum, or the other two arrested protesters, ever resisted the police in any way, or physically attacked them. In fact, one of the other two men arrested for interfering with the arrest and assaulting officers claims he never got closer than 10 ft to them. And that when he was arrested, he was completely peaceful.

So who do you believe? Either this is a police conspiracy, or the protesters are crying wolf. There was no news media initially at the event, when everything went down. Reporters only arrived late to the scene, after things got violent.

The city does have a civilian police auditor, who does do independent investigations of alleged police misconduct. Needless to say, these protesters have all filed complaints with her, and there thus will be a through investigation done.

If you want to see how the protest supporters are reacting, here is a news story all about it today in the far left local weekly paper:

http://www.eugeneweekly.com/2008/06/05/news1.html

So far no letters have been published in either this minor publication, or in our mainstream local newspaper about the incident. But I am sure that these will be coming soon.

The previous letter that I referred to was just published in the local University's newspaper.

Meanwhile, another demonstration is taking place this Saturday, at the same downtown location, to protest how the police handled the earlier demonstration. That protest could get real ugly fast.

Perhaps I'll attend and take some video of the event. Hopefully a riot will not break out between protesters and the police, as it did before when the city had to cut down some trees to make way for a combo shopping and housing development with underground parking.

Protesters were so enraged at the sight of the trees being "murdered" before their eyes, that they started smashing the windows of nearby businesses, and threw rocks at the police. The police had to then respond with massive amounts of tear gas, gassing an entire two block area.

Funny thing is that they planted a bunch of new trees to replace the old ones, and the area looks more lovely than ever, with apartments for people to live in that are above shop space for local businesses, with lots of underground parking for the area.

.
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Old June 7, 2008, 11:59 AM   #71
vox rationis
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Hey that's the "DON'T TAZE ME BRO" guy...even he admitted he was being a dufus and deserved to be tazed after the fact
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Old June 8, 2008, 01:17 PM   #72
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gasoline will work

down here in guatemala there was a recent situation where a bunch of green people (not sure what thier title was) came to a area of guatemala where there is alot of logging being done. whithout so much as a transalator they came down into the jungle with a helacopter and came at the local people to try and convince them of the errors of thier ways.

they had on man dressed as a giant rubber tree, and another man with a big rubber axe chopping him down, screeming out memorized one liners in spanish, and generally ******* the poeple off.

well after a little bit they had had anough of that and got a few cans of gasoline and planned on torching them before local authorities were able to get them out.(by the way public live burnings of troublemakers are pretty commenplace around here.
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Old June 8, 2008, 01:40 PM   #73
Chui
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"I would say the police would NOT be right to TAZE the protester 2x's after beeing subdued. In the case of this left winger, I would also say the police are not right in TAZING the protestor 2x's after being subdued."
Agreed.
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Old June 9, 2008, 04:28 AM   #74
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Quote:
"I would say the police would NOT be right to TAZE the protester 2x's after beeing subdued. In the case of this left winger, I would also say the police are not right in TAZING the protestor 2x's after being subdued."
Agreed.
Well, but the police don't consider someone to be subdued until they are handcuffed. That is the point when officers can begin to feel safe and be more relaxed. And a person is not considered to be handcuffed until BOTH hands are cuffed.

And there has been nothing stated to suggest that either this suspect, or the Florida University student, were tased after they were successfully handcuffed.

If one is resisting being handcuffed, then you are actively resisting arrest, and thus committing a crime.

The smart thing for people to do is to cooperate with officers when they arrest you.

.
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