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Old May 31, 2008, 08:33 AM   #1
LanceOregon
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How do you deal with an aggressive political protester??

What do you do if you are ever confronted by an aggressive political protester who wants to use you in order to make a political point?

For example: We had a most bizarre protest here in Oregon yesterday, by a group called CPWP: Crazy People for Wildlife Protection. They were protesting the use of pesticides in keeping harmful insect populations down. Perhaps they don't want mosquitoes to die? Or maybe they feel there is an overall harmful effect to the ecology. Anyway, all of these protesters looked like they were hippies who had traveled through time from the late '60's

One protester put on a mock exterminator's suit, and then went around with a sprayer, spraying liquid on plants in the downtown mall, and then also on people passing by, without their consent. This upset some folks, who then called the police.

But what would you do in such a scenario? Would you just trust that the liquid was harmless, and allow a total stranger to spray some liquid on you in order to help them drive home their political issue?

When the police showed up, they asked the young 19 yr old man what was in the sprayer, and he told the officers that it was filled with poison. One word led to another, and officers decided to arrest him for disorderly conduct.

However, the young man resisted, and four police officers ended up struggling with him. And they also tased him twice, in order to subdue him.

Now the police are being condemned for police brutality. It really seems like a no-win situation, no? It seems to me that if any civilians had objected and tried to stop the man from spraying them, that they would have been accused of brutality too.

No really good answers here, I am afraid. I guess the best thing to do is just steer well clear of protests if you can. You never known when one will get crazy or violent.

Here is a link to the news story:

http://www.kval.com/news/local/19421239.html

And here is a link to a video news report about the incident:

http://www.kval.com/news/local/19411...?video=YHI&t=a


P.S. -- It turned out that the sprayer just had harmless water in it.

.
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Old May 31, 2008, 09:09 AM   #2
EastSideRich
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Dont know if you'd be justified in shooting him, or rather you'd be convicted of manslaughter or murder.

It would be real hard to not beat the hell of him though.
The only reason I might not is fear of loosing my permit to carry.

I think the best way to deal with this type of @$$#0^* is to avoid them.
If you see people like this harassing passers-by, cross the street or do whatever it takes to not cross paths with them.

Their sole purpose or mission is to cause trouble, don't let them drag you into it.

St Paul is hosting the republican national convention this year and they are expecting ALOT of rowdy protesters. Not that I'd be hanging around there anyway, but I'll be avoiding the area like the plague while its going on.
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Old May 31, 2008, 09:12 AM   #3
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I'd hose him back with pepper spray.
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Old May 31, 2008, 09:29 AM   #4
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Try to avoid him obviously...

but if you can't for whatever reason, I would definitely report him to the police. Does anyone know if that could count as battery since it was an action done on another individual without consent?


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Old May 31, 2008, 09:45 AM   #5
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I would run like the wind before getting hosed. In todays world of poisons and terrorism if I couldn't flee..........well I'm not getting sprayed!

Thats not aggressive political protesting thats assault and battery with a deadly weapon (the fake pioson).
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Old May 31, 2008, 10:25 AM   #6
Rich Miranda
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It's not a gun situation, I don't think.
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Old May 31, 2008, 10:49 AM   #7
OnTheFly
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I'd hose him back with pepper spray.
I like this answer. Not a gun situation. Obviously avoiding him would be the less aggressive path, but why should we have to avoid certain public areas because of another person's actions? That is NOT right.

I think this could be construed as assault. If you perceive that you are being sprayed with a poison, then you have a reason to call the police or defend yourself by physical means depending on how aggressive he becomes. If I had my kids with me, I would have a hard time not subduing him until the police arrived...but then I'm not a mall ninja.

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Old May 31, 2008, 11:26 AM   #8
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Me? I'd stick that sprayer nozzle up his ass and then start pumping.

You wanna make your point, go for it--but leave me the hell out of it. The minute you invade my space or make physical contact, all bets, all understanding, and all restraint is done with.

Protesting is a part of living in a free society. Wacko protesting, distasteful as it might be, is still protected up to a point. But protesting that involves physical contact with unwilling participants is NOT covered nor protected by any law in any state.

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Old May 31, 2008, 11:52 AM   #9
threegun
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Who's to say that the sprayer doesn't contain a poison? Death or great bodily injury comes in many forms. Yes it would be nice to have an alternative to the CW however if you don't have the alternative (pepper or escape) getting sprayed is simply not an option and does constitute a potentially deadly threat.

If you don't want to be shot by a CWP holder don't spray them with something that looks like poison. Pretty simple. I'll rot in prison before I allow my family to be sprayed with an unknown agent. Anything would be better than living with that wrong decision if the poison turned out to be real.
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Old May 31, 2008, 01:16 PM   #10
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If he is spraying me with who knows what, then I'm taking the rolls of nickels out of my pocket and delivering a beat down. Syringes are considered deadly weapons when used as such, don't see why a sprayer with an unknown agent in it would not be considered the same.
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Old May 31, 2008, 02:34 PM   #11
Deaf Smith
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Lance,

Wny don't you go in front of the police station where this happend and protest FOR THE POLICE. Yes, support what they did. Call the local news station and tell them what you and others are doing.

How does that sound.
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Old May 31, 2008, 03:12 PM   #12
threegun
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Deaf, Great suggestion It seems the squeaky wheels get the grease. To often we sit aside and allow this non sense to happen unchallenged. I will keep this in my little bag of tricks for future events.

One must be very careful however if this counter protest causes unrest which leads to CWP holder gunfire might be harder to defense even if justified.
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Old May 31, 2008, 03:38 PM   #13
Erik
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"No really good answers here, I am afraid."

Actually, the answers the responding officers came up with seem like good ones:

Respond. Investigate. Determine a crime was committed. Effect arrest using established guidelines and reasonable force.
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Old May 31, 2008, 03:55 PM   #14
HankB
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A 19-year old with a pump up sprayer he claims is filled with poison is NOT the same thing as a mischevious 10 year old with a water pistol. If someone he'd threatened and attempted to spray HAD shot him, the story strongly suggests there would have been sufficient evidence that the intended spray-ee was in reasonable fear of grave or grevious bodily harm - probably enough to justify shooting the spray-er.

This is a lot like someone approaching you with a realistic-looking gun . . . it doesn't have to be real, you only have to be reasonably sure it is real to justify action.

The legal aftermath would certainly be VERY jurisdiction-dependent.

I like the pepper-spray response.
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Last edited by HankB; June 1, 2008 at 06:53 PM.
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Old May 31, 2008, 04:01 PM   #15
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Of course it wasn't a gun situation. The guy wanted publicity for his opinion. Being sprayed isn't fun. A shove off should be enough. If he comes at you, use mace.
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Old May 31, 2008, 04:07 PM   #16
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The world is full of obnoxious idiots. If you shoot them all you won't have any ammo left for the fun stuff.
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Old May 31, 2008, 04:10 PM   #17
Musketeer
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You point your sprayer at me and I'll point mine at you. I try to avoid such problems but if he were determined he would get a blast of OC at the minimum and worse if my family were threatenned.
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Old May 31, 2008, 04:18 PM   #18
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I tend to get a little on the grumpy side if you invade my space. OC spray sounds good as does a good old fashion azz whoopin. I would not be too mad about you spraying me but if one drop comes near my wife or kids and buddy you are going to find out what it feels like to be stomped into the ground.
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Old May 31, 2008, 04:51 PM   #19
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A whole lotta wall-to-wall counseling sounds like a fine idea.

It's fairly hard to justify shooting the guy to a jury. They're likely illiterates anyway.

It'd be pretty easy, I'd think, to justify beating his ass like a drum, when you say you were scared for your life so you tackled him after he said he sprayed you with poison.
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Old May 31, 2008, 04:54 PM   #20
threegun
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How about a syringe filled with saline that its 19 year old wielder says is aids? Just a stupid kid right?

There is a point were it transforms from a political protest to a life and death split second decision. That is when this idiot stops spraying plants and starts spraying people. If I couldn't escape the spray by running I see no other alternative then to force a stop.

You psychics who know he's just a stupid kid with water disguised as poison just by looking should go play the lotto LOL.
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Old May 31, 2008, 08:09 PM   #21
LanceOregon
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Wny don't you go in front of the police station where this happend and protest FOR THE POLICE. Yes, support what they did. Call the local news station and tell them what you and others are doing.

How does that sound.
I know that there are going to be letters written condemning the police for this use of the taser. Political activists here have blocked the police from getting tasers in recent years, much like they have done in San Francisco. In fact, only a few officers here have them, as they were just deployed 4 months ago, and only on an experimental basis.

So I am thinking of waiting for these attacks to come, and then I could write something to counteract any criticism.

Here is a photo of the protester that was tased. He is on the left, next to another environmental activist:





This is only the second person to be tasered by the department in these past months. The first was a man who got in a dispute with some teenagers, and then chased them through the downtown area screaming that he had a gun and was going to shoot them. The boys took off, with him in hot pursuit. People heard his threats of murder, and called police. So the call the police got was that a man was chasing after some teenagers and threatening them with a handgun.

An officer managed to intercept the man and confront him. He did not see any firearm present, so when the man would not comply with his orders, he deployed his taser and took him down.

There were no complains about that incident. In fact, many said that the officer had courageously risked his life, due to the fact that it had been earlier reported ( although incorrectly ) that the man had a gun.

As things turned out, that man was released on bail two days later.

.
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Old May 31, 2008, 08:25 PM   #22
LanceOregon
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Respond. Investigate. Determine a crime was committed. Effect arrest using established guidelines and reasonable force.
Well, the problem here Erik is that there are folks here who are dead set against the police ever using Tasers against any political protesters. No matter how badly they misbehave. They believe that their protest is protected under the 1st Amendment.

The department tried to implement tasers 3 years earlier, but there were so many howls of protest, that they had to back off.

The city of San Franscisco to this day still does not have tasers, due to very similar political protests against the taser.

.
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Old May 31, 2008, 08:57 PM   #23
tony pasley
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I would prees charges of assult with intent, the police should have charged with terrorist activities, assulting a LEO, then the mistermeaners.
A man was convicted of attemted murder of a LEO after he spit on an officer.
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Old May 31, 2008, 09:30 PM   #24
Deaf Smith
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Here in Texas we have a law against 'Hoax' bombs. A hoax bomb is any thing made or designend or intended to cause alarm or panic. Surely they have a law like that over there. Strange they didn't charge him with 'teroristic threats' or using a hoax bomb.
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Old May 31, 2008, 09:33 PM   #25
LanceOregon
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A man was convicted of attemted murder of a LEO after he spit on an officer.
Yes, but this guy does not have AIDS. He is mainly just guilty of being a hippie. And all he wants is for us to stop using pesticides.

He is actually a university student too. One would have thought that he would have been far more intelligent than to tell the responding officers that he was spreading poison.

I guess he thought it was OK to joke about such stuff.

.
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