The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 29, 2008, 09:16 PM   #1
clam
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2008
Posts: 5
1st CCW situation

I was riding passenger in MY car in Atlanta, unknown to me during the "Phreaknick" festival.

There was much gang violance going on, and we took a wrong turn right into the middle of the affair.

We had the windows rolled down and when we turned the corner and was confronted with the "mob" of people, I reached into the glovebox and pulled my .40 pistol.

A guy jumped into my passenger side and wanted "our money now", I had my pistol aimed in his chest, point blank range, and he looked at it and said, "he didn't care, go ahead and fire".

The question is, with a man inside your car (leaning inside) and threatening you for your money, life, when is the appropriate time to defend yourself?

As an aside, we were able to pull away, and he fell out of the car. I didn't have to shoot.

What is the appropriate time to pull the trigger?
clam is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 09:26 PM   #2
GPossenti
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 295
Having absolutely no experience, I probably would have smashed his nose with the butt of my gun to get him out of the car. Then called the police.
GPossenti is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 09:35 PM   #3
cxg231
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2008
Location: Henderson, NV
Posts: 203
When did this happen?
cxg231 is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 09:36 PM   #4
KCabbage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2007
Posts: 707
Greetings.
Good thing you didnt blast! I'm pretty sure thats murder, or at least manslaughter. Technically, I dont think you can shoot until he is actively trying to harm you. With you being in a car, you would probably be prosecuted because you didn't try to escape.
Sounds like you didn't call the police. Why not? He's most likely going to do this to someone else.
I think you did a good job!
Take care
KCabbage is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 09:44 PM   #5
Rich Miranda
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2008
Location: San Antonio, not San Antone...
Posts: 1,203
The saddest thing about your story is that the guy really didn't care if you killed him or not. There are really people like that. Life must really hold no hope for them (at least in their minds).

When you have reason to believe that you life is in imminent danger, then you're ready to draw. When you're reasonably certain your life is indeed in imminent danger, then you're ready to shoot.
Rich Miranda is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 09:52 PM   #6
clam
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2008
Posts: 5
the draw question

The saddest thing about your story is that the guy really didn't care if you killed him or not. There are really people like that. Life must really hold no hope for them (at least in their minds).

When you have reason to believe that you life is in imminent danger, then you're ready to draw. When you're reasonably certain your life is indeed in imminent danger, then you're ready to shoot.


I agree...

imminent danger was present, the shot was not.

That weekend, the 'locals' defacated on the govenors lawn and set fire to the govoners house. I assumed the 'local law enforcement' knew.

The question I still have in my mind is "how long do we go before shooting"?
clam is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 09:56 PM   #7
scoutleader
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2007
Location: WestTN
Posts: 121
Wrong time and wrong place. Atlanta is a bad place to be at that time. In TN if you have a CCP and you are in a car our house and feel you life is in danger, then you have the right to shoot.
Danny
scoutleader is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 10:00 PM   #8
lanternlad
Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Posts: 49
I'd have shot him. My "Do Not Cross" line in that situation is my car. You touch it (with violence) and I have a reasonable expectation that my life is in danger, or you are trying to steal my property - either is reasonable use of deadly force here in Texas. You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that. From that scenario, it appears that you don't. If you don't, you really have no reason to carry a gun.
lanternlad is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 10:06 PM   #9
2cooltoolz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 17, 2007
Location: Lake Conroe, Texas
Posts: 1,050
I'm disgusted by your bigotry. You should have invited him home to meet the family and offered him a significant portion of your lifetime earnings so he could spend his time doing drugs and procreating.
__________________
What me worry
2cooltoolz is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 10:20 PM   #10
hoytinak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,710
Quote:
I'd have shot him. My "Do Not Cross" line in that situation is my car. You touch it (with violence) and I have a reasonable expectation that my life is in danger, or you are trying to steal my property - either is reasonable use of deadly force here in Texas. You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that. From that scenario, it appears that you don't. If you don't, you really have no reason to carry a gun.
+1 Gotta love Texas...if he was inside or trying to get inside my truck...I would have shot.
__________________
"Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul."
hoytinak is offline  
Old May 29, 2008, 11:28 PM   #11
TexasSeaRay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 810
Quote:
Good thing you didnt blast! I'm pretty sure thats murder, or at least manslaughter. Technically, I dont think you can shoot until he is actively trying to harm you. With you being in a car, you would probably be prosecuted because you didn't try to escape.
By that "logic," a woman isn't justified in shooting a would-be rapist until he has her clothes off, is on top of her and in the act of committing sexual intercourse.

Of the many reasons we live in Texas (and are natives, not transplants) is that our vehicles--be they cars, boats, RVs, trucks, airplanes, etc--are considered by law to be an extension of our domicile.

If the scumbag punk had stuck his head in my doorway at my house and demanded all of my money, he would not have even had the breath left to say "Go ahead and shoot me" before he was shot.

And the law down here say says there is no difference between my home and my vehicle.

Jeff
__________________
If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.
TexasSeaRay is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 01:17 AM   #12
soccergod04
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 12
Wow I need to move to Texas when I graduate.
soccergod04 is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 03:04 AM   #13
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 1,918
Yesterday 09:28 PM

TexasSeaRay wrote:



Quote:
... By that "logic," a woman isn't justified in shooting a would-be rapist until he has her clothes off, is on top of her and in the act of committing sexual intercourse....
Texas remember that 'logic' does not really play a role in any scenario. Here in California it all comes down to what your attorney, or the District Attorney, can convince a jury is 'reasonable' under the 'Facts' of the scenario.

In your example, suppose the 'Rapist' was a 'Date rapist'. He had just spent $100 on concert tickets, $100 on dinner and a few drinks, and now was simply going to partake in a little 'Love making'. He just figured she was playing 'Hard to get' and he didn't have a clue she was going to shoot me, til she did.

Sometimes it comes down to who can create the more entertaining illusion to the illusion, or who can 'Bore' the jury the most. 'Logic' often depends upon whose 'Logic' one is using.

To the OP, if you felt in fear of serious injury, or loss of your life, why did you not shoot. By your not shooting, I conclude you really did not fear these things, in which case you were wise not to shoot. There is no 'Cookbook' answer to your question. What I do suspect, is anytime you pull your gun, be prepared to pay an attorney for a legal defense. If you actually shoot, be prepared to spend a lot of money on that attorney.
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
Hook686 is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 03:13 AM   #14
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
You Did What Was Right

Ignoring this nuts definition of a "failed" act of self-defense:
Quote:
You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that.
(Right, a real failure: no injuries of any kind.... to anyone and the threat gone.....terrible outcome....),
your question:
Quote:
The question is, with a man inside your car (leaning inside) and threatening you for your money, life, when is the appropriate time to defend yourself?
was actually answered by yourself:

Quote:
As an aside, we were able to pull away, and he fell out of the car. I didn't have to shoot.
You didn't have to shoot, so, you didn't. You followed what is the usual foundation of SD law and its ethical intent: the necessity of having "the reasonable belief - [in the legal sense of the Reasonable Person : i.e., any reasonable person in the same circumstance would believe the same thing] - of one's IMMINENT death/serious injury with no other action possible but to take a potentially lethal self-defense action in order to stop this imminent attack" Sounds like prior to all those conditions prompting such an action, you tried one last, or the other person driving did: you pulled away, and fate intervened as the car moved: the attacker fell out of the car.

You did fine, you waited until that was nearly all there, the Reasonable Belief, the "appropriateness", but then bingo! you or another who was driving take off in the car causing the attacker to fall out and the threat to diminish. No reason then to shoot.
So, you weren't killed, the attacker wasn't hurt or killed, AND the attack stopped. You defended yourself by drawing your gun and being at the ready, and then by driving away. All of this worked. This was no failure, but a success.


What would have happened with other theoretical outcomes some posted,had they actually occurred? (E.g.., you had shot earlier on.) You don't know, anything could have happened. Likely though one or both of you would have ended up dead or very hurt or another person would have, and you'd have had monumental potential upset to your life, internal and external: a LOT of grief of all sorts.

And you state your question well: what was the APPROPRIATE TIME to shoot, for YOU to shoot in THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, AT THAT TIME, under the influence of YOUR instincts. Some others - even if they are legally correct that a person, once his car has been forcibly entered, CAN shoot - mistake that technical permission with the APPROPRIATENESS of such an act, which are not always the same thing. Nor were they in your moment of truth. Their criteria - ("he's in the car, legal green light, go do it")- treats CCWs as people desirous of shooting and killing, just needing circumstances that fulfill technical legal requirements before they can go at it and activate their true desires.

My true desire is to stay safe, and only to do so by shooting, or by any lethal SD action, if that is truly the last house on the street. Sounds like this describes you too. if so: Excellent! And an excellent job in that tight situation!

Last edited by gvf; May 30, 2008 at 03:28 AM. Reason: grammar
gvf is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 06:35 AM   #15
tecdv
Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2006
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 36
Quote:
our vehicles--be they cars, boats, RVs, trucks, airplanes, etc--are considered by law to be an extension of our domicile.

And the law down here say says there is no difference between my home and my vehicle.
I'm an ex-Texan. For some reason I now live in Ohio. The good news is:

Castle Doctrine and CHL Reform Passes Senate! Sub. S.B. No. 184 has been concurred by the Ohio Senate 25-7! This bill will now go to Governor Strickland for his signature, which he indicated he would consent to.

I'm glad it all worked out for you without a shot fired. Not all that glad this POS is still walking the streets. Not sure if I could have/would have done the same thing. Hard to say unless your in the situation. I don't want to have to shoot anyone, but I definitely don't have a problem with doing so if needed.
tecdv is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 07:00 AM   #16
xrocket
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2007
Posts: 549
I think you did fine and I live in Texas. You used judgment and rational thought as to how to protect yourself and remain in control. If he had come into the car with any kind of weapon in his hand or went for one or flashed one after the fact than you should protect yourself with all available means to make him stop. Whatever it takes.

Thank you for posting your experience.

Carry on.
__________________
If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. My stand begins with "WE THE PEOPLE" ...
xrocket is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 07:12 AM   #17
Sigma 40 Blaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 997
I am no tactical or legal expert but seeing stuff like this amazes me. Asking Internet advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

There is no substitute for knowing your state laws concerning the use of deadly force and the existence of a Castle Doctrine law, and what it entails.

A second part of the equation is knowing what capacities you will and CAN use your weapon in. Will you use it deter a threat (potentially a crime, brandishing to create the apprehension that you will use it is not legal in all states, some it is if you would be justified in using force, like Texas)? Will you use it as a list ditch effort to escape harm to you and yours?

A third part of the equation is knowing how hard you will try to avoid using your weapon. How much crow are you willing to eat? How submissive do you plan to be to de-escalate a situation? How alert are you to your surroundings to always leave yourself a route to escape without using your weapon if possible.

There are probably several more parts to the SD equation that equals a good shoot, bad shoot, or dead good guy but those three are the problems I see with the scenario as described.

I think the old addage "Don't pull a gun if you're not ready to use it" is highly appropriate for this situation. My greatest fear in trying to run away in a vehicle is that the BG would pull a weapon and try to empty his mag into the car as we were pulling away. GG bullets rarely do any good in a situation like that but BG bullets can easily make it through glass, car frames, seat cushions, and seemingly every other obstacle.

I believe for all intents and purposes someone sticking their head in your car and demanding money demonstrates intent to do harm. Some states might require a gun or knife pointed at while hopefully most would not. Some have a Right to Retreat law, some have a Stand Your Ground law. Learn the laws, apply them to some realistic and not-so-realistic scenarios and think your way through it. I also believe at the end of the day that the best gunfight is the one that was avoided, remember that flight is just as viable as fighting and work that into your "scenario planning".
Sigma 40 Blaster is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 09:45 AM   #18
GPossenti
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 295
Quote:
The saddest thing about your story is that the guy really didn't care if you killed him or not. There are really people like that. Life must really hold no hope for them (at least in their minds).
It could be that the guy just called your bluff. Maybe he saw you as a pansy-@$$ white boy (like me) who was playing with daddy's gun. He didn't think you had the guts. Maybe he's been around so many tougher looking guys that he didn't think you'd shoot.

As for lanternlad's comments, I'd rather have more people with guns who were afraid to shoot than people who are unafraid and were a little overzealous, shooting when another solution would have been better.
GPossenti is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 10:23 AM   #19
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,507
Firing a gun is the LAST line of defense, not the FIRST.

A guy hops in your car with no knife or weapon and demands money, shooting isn't the first thing you do. The OP did right, just drove away and let him fall out.

I can't believe how many people put all their defensive strategy into carrying a gun.

Now Clam I do have one question. Were the doors unlocked, or did he jump in through the open window that...should have been closed to begin with?
chris in va is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 11:43 AM   #20
gdvan01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2006
Location: Home of the first First Lady
Posts: 453
Quote:
+1 Gotta love Texas...if he was inside or trying to get inside my truck...I would have shot.
Damn straight. The gene pool needs to be cleaned every now and again, chlorine or bullets, whichever is needed at the time.
__________________
NRA Endowment Life Member

Proud Son of a former Tomb Guard
gdvan01 is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 12:25 PM   #21
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,702
KCabbage, you must live in one of the states that doesn't have a "Stand your ground" law. Here in Fl, the fact that he opened the door, got in, and threatened you means he voluntarily forfeited his legal right to live.
Doyle is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 01:26 PM   #22
primlantah
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Posts: 110
I'm a native Texan. When i was a teenager someone tried something similar to me. I reacted the same except for i wasn't old enough for a gun. If it happened to me again i would shoot instead. my .02
primlantah is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 01:40 PM   #23
KCabbage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2007
Posts: 707
Yes Doyle, I do not legally have the option of "standing my ground". Legally, I must try to escape first.

Quote:
By that "logic,"
It's not Logic stone cold killer Jeff(Texassearay), its law!
Most of the states here in America do not have the Texas standard.
I'm not sure how you came to your rape conclusion, but if a woman "reasonably" fears for her life she must do what she has to do.

Just because you are open to legally shoot(defend yourself) doesn't always mean you should. If you do shoot, it might hit you HARD afterwards if you really had to shoot/end his life.

On the up-tip, maybe this would be robber will have a appifany soon in life that will change his ways.
It's probably bleek, but it's possible. I've seen the light myself, and I wont even kill a bug, well, maybe i'll slay some mesquitos. But don't get me wrong, if I need to defend myself, family, or another innocent, you bet i'll blast!

I have a story that goes along with not shooting because you can, but i'm a little tired of starring at this computer. Maybe when i'll get some energy I will post.

Flame me if you must, but I want the best for all!
Take care gentlemen and ladies.
KCabbage is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 01:57 PM   #24
tplumeri
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,919
Quote:
maybe this would be robber will have a appifany soon in life that will change his wa
do you mean "epiphany", as in the sudden realization,comprehension and or understanding of something?
like the guy in the Diner at the end of pulp fiction?
nah, not likely to happen.
tom

BTW, I would have fired.
tplumeri is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 02:14 PM   #25
KCabbage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2007
Posts: 707
Oh yes, thank you.

I thought the guy was just asking for money? In most states, you cannot legally take a life to protect property.

What exactly happened when he "jumped in the car"?
KCabbage is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11687 seconds with 7 queries