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Old May 28, 2008, 12:09 PM   #1
vts
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115gr vs 124gr. 9mm

I know I'm splitting hairs but i know there was a self defense guru that said the 115gr 9mm was the best thing ever. Personally i feel (just a gut feeling) that the 125gr/124gr is the best.
You get the same energy from both 115gr and the 124gr but the 124gr should penetrate a little deeper.

Any thoughts on this?
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Old May 28, 2008, 12:37 PM   #2
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Still comes down to individual guns and probably individual shooters. Out of my short barrel 9mm pistols, I find that 115 grain Corbon DPX +P feeds perfectly for my weapons and hits dead center where I am aiming. The bullet has extraordinary velocity and the all copper bullet does not break up after penetrating deeply. I do not shoot other rounds as well...but then, that is me and my weapon.

I think everyone should try out different rounds with their particular weapons and see what suits them best.
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Old May 28, 2008, 04:00 PM   #3
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I carry the 124gr in Speer Gold Dots personally. I was told that the 124gr bullet was what the 9mm was originally designed to be and that most guns/sights are designed with a 124gr bullet in mind. I don't suppose it makes a whole heck of a difference but I think the 124gr is a nice comprimise between the lighter 115gr and heavier 147gr.
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Old May 28, 2008, 05:55 PM   #4
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Well, even though the 115 grain JHP still has some fans, the LE community essentially discredited the 115 grain JHP after that FBI Miami shoot out fiasco in the late 80s, http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htmin which a 115 grain Silvertip failed to adequately penetrate one of the bad guys. Even though the wound was mortal, the criminal remained in action long enough to murder and wound a number of FBI agents.

The FBI then ran its famous tests and determined that the 115 grain bullet was unacceptable due to its inadequate penetration. The only exception seems to be when the Barnes copper bullet is used.

This is a list that is commonly given (as seen on tactical forums.com) listing the "most effective 9mm loads" that apparently pass FBI testing protocols:

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

To review, the 115 grain (except the Barnes all copper bullet) is considered inadequate for self defense by most pundits, due to inadequate penetration capability.
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Old May 28, 2008, 06:12 PM   #5
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Anything on that list above will serve you well, provided you do your part and it is reliable in your weapon.

Here's a link to the same webpage:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...;f=78;t=000964
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Old May 28, 2008, 06:28 PM   #6
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I use 124 gr Hydra-Shoks as my defense load. I should probably move up to 147s, though. My pistol prefers heavier loads, and the extra mass wouldn't hurt.
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Old May 28, 2008, 07:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
The LE community essentially discredited the 115 grain JHP after that FBI Miami shoot out fiasco in the late 80s
This is a gross overstatement about a complex set of facts and some unique circumstances. It boiled down to only one Silvertip that stopped about 1/2 inch short of an immediate kill. In response the FBI did their test protocols and decided that, for law enforcement purposes, they needed a more powerful cartridge. They went to a 10mm but some agents couldn't handle it and they eventually went to .40 SW. The FBI protocols are but one factor to consider when picking a self-defense load.

I normally use 115 gr. cartridges, partly because they seem to be more plentiful in FMJ in this area.
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Old May 28, 2008, 07:18 PM   #8
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I'll throw you a curve. I use Corbon 9mm 125gr +P 1250fps in my Beretta which is my ccw.
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Old May 28, 2008, 07:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
I'll throw you a curve. I use Corbon 9mm 125gr +P 1250fps in my Beretta which is my ccw.
Until I can shoot some of this DPX everybody loves, thats my new carry ammo.
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Old May 28, 2008, 07:38 PM   #10
vox rationis
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Quote:
This is a gross overstatement about a complex set of facts and some unique circumstances.
Out of the agencies still issuing 9mm, which ones still issue a 115 grain load?
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Old May 28, 2008, 07:46 PM   #11
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There's nothing wrong with the 115-grain 9mm round for punching holes in paper or targets. But I no longer use them for serious SD work.

My preferred load is the 124 grain Speer Gold Dot simply because I can easilyi find them. That and they can sometimes be found in boxes of 50 rounds for just a few bucks more than a box of 20 rounds.

In the 70's, when the 9mm first started making inroads to police departments, several PD shootings showed the 115 grain bullets lacking in capability. One local agency shot a sword-wielding man sixteen times with Remington 115 grain JHP before he stopped annoying people.

Does anyone have any experience with the Federal 135-grain +P 9mm Tactical Bonded load?
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Old May 28, 2008, 07:57 PM   #12
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I'm partial to 147gr Remington Golden Sabers. Excellet feed profile, excellent terminal ballistics, generally excellent accuracy. What's not to love!?


THIS is an excellent read on this subject that pops up here every 15 minutes

Quote:
You plan for a worst case scenario, and that's why it's best to choose a bullet that will put the maximum advantage in your corner
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Old May 28, 2008, 08:18 PM   #13
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"They went to a 10mm but some agents couldn't handle it and they eventually went to .40 SW."

This is not true. The FBI moved from the 10mm to an identically performing .40 S&W load, and today issue a slightly hotter one. And the guns have gotten lighter, to boot...

Back on topic...

I've had good experience with 147 and 124 grain 9mm offerings. I prefer the 147 grainers.
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Old May 28, 2008, 08:27 PM   #14
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What Rampant_Colt said. Of all the loads I used to kill deer 147 Golden sabers, heck even the 124 and 124 +P golden sabers were one of my prefered loads, but Winchester 147 subsonics were cheaper work very good and could be bought by the 50 cheaper than 20 Golden saber.

When I went up against smaller critters I would use 115s but nothing any larger than a 'yote. If I were to use a 115 it would be a 115 Hornady XTP that gives penetration more like a 124 due to its design...........
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Old May 29, 2008, 04:03 AM   #15
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I use varied 115gr. JHPs, 124gr.JHPs, and 147 gr. JHP in the various pistols I own. Those being two Ruger P95s, SIG P6(225), and a Taurus PT111 Mil/pro.

These all have excellent real world track records.

Here's some links on this subject.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=5162.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=5275.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=723.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=3612.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=6545.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=1926.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=4920.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=1603.0
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Old May 29, 2008, 08:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
"They went to a 10mm but some agents couldn't handle it and they eventually went to .40 SW."

This is not true. The FBI moved from the 10mm to an identically performing .40 S&W load, and today issue a slightly hotter one. And the guns have gotten lighter, to boot...
Erik is correct. The FBI never issued full power 10mm ammo for their 1076. It had nothing to do with agents not being able to handle the recoil. The full power 10mm was never considered. The FBI set their performance standards prior to testing and the 10mm Lite met those standards and the 10mm full power loads did nothing to improve on those performances. The 'agents couldn't handle it" is an old internet rumor that's unfortunately being continued by some gun writers who haven't done their research nor checked with the sources. They continue repeating the same lie either thru ignorance or thru their inability to find out the facts.
To discount the 115 gr weight because of Miami is also not looking at the facts. Prior to Miami the FBI was on the kick of rapid expansion/low penetration. They were as fanatical then on that performance as they became as equally fanatical later on with the deep penetration/forget about expansion. They were riding the pendulum riding the swing from one extreme to the other.
As far as the 115 gr my agency carried the 115 for many years. The rd in Miami was the 115 gr Silvertip. Several years prior to Miami we were issued the Silvertip for only a couple of months until our first shooting with it and found that rapid expansion wasn't what was ideal. We switched to Fed 115 BP and later worked with Fed to develop BPLE and later with W-W for the 115 +P+. Those rds, while still 115 gr, are not the same type performers as the Silvertip. We carried the W-W +P+ for many years and it had a very successful record in our shootings as did the BP and BPLE.
It's not the bullet weight but the bullet design.
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Old May 29, 2008, 11:58 AM   #17
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DoubleTap 9mm +p results in gel:

Quote:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

These FPS results are from a 4.5" long barrel, in a Glock 17.

DoubleTap website, 9mm +p section, to order these rounds: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...5ea999e06ddc5d

Keep in mind: these're premium self defense JHP rounds, so the $27 per 50 is really, REALLY cheap when compared to the big name brand prices! DoubleTap is simply more powerful, AND use a LOW FLASH load in their rounds. I don't know what else one could ask for?
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Old May 29, 2008, 01:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northalius
DoubleTap 9mm +p results in gel:


Quote:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

These FPS results are from a 4.5" long barrel, in a Glock 17.

DoubleTap website, 9mm +p section, to order these rounds: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...5ea999e06ddc5d

Keep in mind: these're premium self defense JHP rounds, so the $27 per 50 is really, REALLY cheap when compared to the big name brand prices! DoubleTap is simply more powerful, AND use a LOW FLASH load in their rounds. I don't know what else one could ask for?
LoL - it's the DT cheerleader fanboy! I knew you'd be first to post those spectacular figures. You're my hero
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Old May 29, 2008, 01:34 PM   #19
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Move along people; pay no attention to Rampant_Troll over here. He's getting on my case on another forum (GlockTalk) for posting DoubleTap results over there, as well. He has some childish, anti-DoubleTap biased agenda of some sort; but, oh well, his loss.

Test them out for yourselves, and see why I am suggesting to check out their gel results!

What could hurt? $27 for 50 premium JHP rounds, with LOW flash powder in them, advertised at such high speeds (and thus more power) compared to other manufacturers? I say that's a good deal!

P.S. Again, pay no attention to Rampant_Troll.

See ya!
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Old May 29, 2008, 02:03 PM   #20
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I'm a troll? LoL. You better check yourself, kid

I don't recommend using 115gr JHP loads because most are shallow penetrating - even the +P+ loads. Most premium JHP available now are better able to penetrate heavy clothing and material without clogging up. This is a common problem at low handgun velocities.

Another problem that most folks don't seem to want to address is feed profile. What good to you is your new-fangled JHP round when it's jammed up on the feed ramp? Many new premium cartridges have large hollowpoint openings making for suspect feed reliability. Generally-speaking, most Golden Sabers feature an excellent feed profile
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Old May 29, 2008, 02:12 PM   #21
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Point out where I'm trolling... please.

On the other hand, you come in here senselessly making fun of my post, with cheerleader smilies and all. Yeah, now who's more of a troll?

Anyway...

According to DT gel results, I'd personally stick with the 147 gr. DT rounds for my 9mm pistol... if I had one.

Just me, though. If I had to choose between .75" more penetration or a mere .04" more expansion? I'd pick the penetration over expansion in this case, any day.
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Old May 29, 2008, 02:57 PM   #22
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124gr Golden Sabers

I like 124gr Golden Sabers. Good performance and they feed 100% in My 9mm Carry guns(which I don't use that often) There is guy on this forum that has in his signatute a "9mm may expand but a 45 never shrinks" and I think that is right on! The other good thing about the 124 grainers is for some reason they feed in my BHP with the hump I would stay away from the 115 grainers for anything except pratice, thats my opinion.
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Old May 29, 2008, 03:03 PM   #23
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stick with 124/125 and 147gr JHP myself. but depends on the loading.

not crazy about 115gr FMJ prefer 115gr FMJ hollow base which has the same length as 124/125gr bullets.

147gr bullets will keyhole in some guns.

for subcompacts 115gr is acceptable.
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Old May 29, 2008, 05:38 PM   #24
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As has been said the only 115gr bullet I would consider for PD is Corbon DPX. It's really amazing stuff and I personally feel it represents the latest advances in bullet technology. Solid, heat treated copper bullet with no lead core to separate. Use what you like though and sleep well. Every current production JHP load will work for ya provided you put shots on target.
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Old May 29, 2008, 07:50 PM   #25
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to me the whole grain debate for 9mm is funny. Its a whoppin 9 grains!
*ducks 3guns bigger is better theory*
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