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Old May 27, 2008, 01:26 PM   #26
kunlao21
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Can O Worms indeed! :)

Please be sure to check your State Statutes regarding self-defense and duty to retreat before reading any of my rambles

In this case, the only variables I could fathom would be if the assailant was within a few feet of his door and verbally indicated an intention to retrieve a firearm or other deadly weapon, then turned and went for it. Your case has a better chance if you acted with deadly force to terminate his perceived immediate threat. As in, "If I didn't fire, he would have got to his (Insert deadly weapon).

There is some understanding if you can properly... I mean very properly articulate your fear of death or great bodily harm. If he was a chasing distance away (4 or 5 yards) from you and/or the car, it's probably not going to put you in immediate harm, but enough to at least draw to low-ready or up on target in anticipation, depending on your level of fear.

I wouldn't give chase to position for a better point blank shot, but if you can run towards him, you could also likely run for cover/conclmnt. Showing at least some attempt to get away from the aggressor. Or just draw and stand your ground (depending on your state).

I personally find it bothersome that states are inconsistent with allowing their citizens to stand their ground. I'd hate to go on vacation to find myself in a situation where I'm trying to remember others' SD laws.

Also, notify PD ASAP, since in a few minutes, you might walk into some deputies mentioning something about a Sunday School teacher and his bible study girlfriend stopping to ask directions for the local Hebrew School when this crazy man with a puppy and a .45 tried to kill them.

That's why I just use..."High Karate!"
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Old May 27, 2008, 01:26 PM   #27
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Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone.
+1 Mr. Armstrong.

As the original post was written it was not IMHO and knowledge of local laws, a "shooting situation". It could become one, depending on what transpires next. If this happened to me I would attempt to not make it become a "shooting situation".

Eating a little crow is cheaper than a civil or criminal trial.

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Old May 27, 2008, 01:38 PM   #28
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You can only shoot to stop an immediate threat.

1.) Lets say he instantly turns and runs back to the car as fast as he can? I don't think thatS justification to shoot in the eyes of the law.

Right, you'll be up for assault or attempted murder or murder.

depend on whether or not there was ACTUALLY a gun in the vehicle that he was going for.

Nope, you had no reason to believe there was a gun in the car. Your free life is history in this case.

2.) Your intuition says that this big mindless peace of meat is going for something. That he's not running . . . What do you do . . . your life is now on the line. You can't run, he's the one thats going to shoot you in the back as you flee.

Again, wrong. If he's moving away from you and has shown no weapon, there IS NO THREAT.

YOU chase HIM back to his car. If he doesn't instantly jump back in, if he REACHES for anything, you pump him up with several rounds of .45 ACP HST Hollow points.
Partially right.

Let's look at it this way. You've all watched cops drawn down on some perp with a gun hanging at his side. You've all heard "drop the gun" countless times. Why don't the cops just blow the guy away? Because they have the drop on him. If he raises the gun one inch, they got him cold and he's dead meat.

Get the drop on him.
Assume a defensive posture with your hand on your weapon, but not drawn. Raise a hand and command "STAY BACK, STOP NOW!"
If he doesn't:
Draw your weapon, take one step back, and point it at his heart. Give a command "STAY BACK, STOP OR I'LL SHOOT YOU."
If he doesn't:
When he's about 10 feet away, take him out.
If he's down but still menacing you, finish the job. Shoot until the threat is negated.
BTW, this may all happen in the space of 10 seconds.

He had opportunity, ability, and intent.

If he steps back at any point and goes back to his vehicle, track on him. Even if he tries to bring out a gun, you still have the drop on him. If he drives off, stay where you are, get the license number and call the LEOs.

I watched my CWP instructor play out almost this exact scenario in class. When he pointed his weapon at the wall and issued the commands, I almost wet my pants. You HAVE to make the perp believe you WILL shoot him.
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Old May 27, 2008, 02:51 PM   #29
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rather then get into it halfway in the middle of nowhere with someone who is much bigger then me I would most likely pull my CCW.
In my state, that isnt a lawful option. Your scenario has an unarmed aggressive butthead that wants to throw down. You can run. You can de-escalate the situation by apologizing, saying you are his beeyotch, you would perform many favors for him if he would just leave you alone.
Carrying a gun means you have to have the cooler head. It is for the defense of life, and a knuckledragging meathead may not exactly pose a deadly threat.

I watched a situation pan out similar to your hypothetical, just last Friday night. I was outside the bar, and refused one drunk guy, him and his less-intoxicated friend walked away. Another pair of individuals stopped the drunk guy, talked back and forth, trying to be all tough. The two I refused tried to walk away, went across the street, the other two followed and kept bothering them. Calling the skinny drunk guy out to fight, they wind up doing all the chest thumping, taking off their shirts, bumping into each other, all that good stuff. The skinny drunk guy finally had enough, and there was a throwdown. I couldnt tell who struck who first, but the skinny drunks friend had no part of it, his friend looked like he was going to be doubleteamed, but he was tougher than he looked, certainly more than the other guys figured him to be. Though it was two on one, the skinny drunk guy got the upper hand, connected on a good hit to the aggressors head, he goes down, his buddy flees. The skinny drunk then started stomping the guy on the ground, which is when we intervened, against the admonishment of a supervisor, we didnt like having to watch any of it, but we certainly werent going to just watch someone getting curbstomped.
The guy on the ground was knocked out, the skinny drunk went his way, 911 dispatch advised us not to detain, they sent an officer out, nothing came of it, or they would have returned for our statement and the video a passerby took of the entire incident.

Had this happened outside the bar I used to work at, we would have been involved and prevented it, the aggressor would have gotten pepper sprayed and put in cuffs to wait for police.
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Old May 27, 2008, 03:22 PM   #30
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"In my state, that isnt a lawful option. Your scenario has an unarmed aggressive butthead that wants to throw down."

In SC, a gun can NOT be used to defend against a "simple assault". HOWEVER, disparity of sizes (a 6'5", 295 pound monster going against a 150 pound octogenarian), or a disparity of numbers (a biker gang against a sole jogger) makes a difference. If you feel you're in "imminent danger of grave physical harm"...

Also, the CWP carrier must be IN NO WAY at fault for the ocurrence of the incident in which he used his gun. In other words, if you call that 6'5", 296 pound guy someone a SOB and he begins punching you relentlessly, and you pull your gun and shoot him, it's your butt all the way.
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Old May 27, 2008, 03:22 PM   #31
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Even a smqack upside the head doesn't justify the used of deadly force.
Really? If I have a weapon in my hand and have given appropriate warnings to the BG, do you REALLY think I'll let him get close enough to strike me?
Its great to imagine what you THINK you would do, but until youre in the situation you'll never know.
Ive been there. it took 5 yrs to clear the lawsuits. no criminal charges. my wife and i werent injured. BG survived.
BG was shot to death holding up a liquor store some years later. he shot and killed an innocent before the owner nailed him.
thats the bottom line. I plan to walk away, uninjured.
Ill take my chances with the legal system.
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Old May 27, 2008, 03:26 PM   #32
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Also, the CWP carrier must be IN NO WAY at fault for the ocurrence of the incident in which he used his gun.
Excellent point that is overlooked often enough here, to say nothing of the media. Even states like FL with the "Stand Your Ground" law make an exception for when the shooter was dumb enough to escalate the situation.
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Old May 27, 2008, 04:24 PM   #33
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I would turn around and leave. If he tries to pursue me I run. If he is gaining on me or I'm getting fatigued I draw and confront while retreating. If he continues to move in on me I now have no choice but to fire.

If he runs back to his car at the sight of my gun I continue to get out of dodge while looking for cover or ducking out behind a home or business. At the site of a firearm I open fire while giving as small a target as possible. Likely prone if no cover is available.

In my neck of the woods knocking on someones door with a gun in your hand is a bad idea so make sure your gun is not exposed if you beat on someones door.
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Old May 27, 2008, 05:36 PM   #34
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Just got back from work . . . wow . . .

Can of worms is right . . . where to begin?


First off Keltyke---thats actually some A+ advise. Thanks for your post.


Secondly, to be honest, I think my original post was a little bit vague. I was in a good mood this morning and I kind of wrote the post with a certain amount candor that I don't usually post with . . . I guess lesson learned . . .

I didn't actually mean "Chase after him" as in running after him as he fled. That would make me the crazy guy with a .45 . In the scenario as I visualized it, the car would be only a few paces away, far to close to "chase" him to. I was visualizing that the vehicle would have stopped around the same distance as I heard him make his comment.


What is interesting though is how many different interpretations and opinions a group of people can derive from words that are spoken on the fly, or are just not specific enough to truly convey the whole idea.


THAT is an important lesson for all of us. Because from the cop that questions you to the jury that may be deciding your fate, little details will either doom you or set you free . . . I know I learned something here and it doesn't have to do with CCW it has more to do with what comes out of your mouth AFTER something actually happens.


Also: (In hind sight its actually kind of funny that this was taken so literally) I didn't actually MEAN pump him full of lead in the literal sense people Double or triple tap to me is "being pumped full of .45 HST" But again lesson learned . . . be specific.


Thanks for all of your posts . . . there was some real good advise.


Did I miss anything?
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Old May 27, 2008, 05:41 PM   #35
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David Armstrong:

"When the car stops immediately turn around and start back the way you came. Another option, depending on the neighborhood, is to walk up to the nearest front door and ring and start knocking. If he pursues it gives you a much better defense should there be a problem, might give you a witness, and so on. Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone."


Respectfully, when in a real life CCW event will you have time to do ALL of that? If there was that amount of time I wouldn't be drawing my gun I would just be strolling down the road.


Kragax:

"tell Jesus I said hello."


Not sure what that is pertaining to but I am pretty sure that Jesus + Guns don't mix.
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Old May 27, 2008, 10:35 PM   #36
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Since I am 63, retired, a cardiac patient, with various and sundry other physical limitations:

One knuckle dragging neanderthal who wants to make a federal case about my attested ogling of his female probably doesn't have a leg to stand on anyway, because they usually have Rosy O'Donnell's baby sister with them here in my area, . . . and I ain't interested.

If he presses the issue, . . . I will back away, apologizing, and trying to do my "I'm scared of you" impression as best I can.

BUT, . . . when he gets up to about 15 or so feet, . . . I will have a hand on the butt of my 1911, . . . and any closer, . . . he'll see what the inside of the barrel looks like, . . . and I'll take my chances with the legal ramifications.

If he runs, . . . I'm on my cell, . . . 911, . . . calling it in. If he comes out with a firearm or any serious weapon, . . . I'll be calling a lawyer next.

May God bless,
Dwight

PS: This is the exact type of scenario that makes me take my walks in the woods, . . . or down a township road that has no houses at all, . . . out in the boonies where most knuckle draggers can't even find.
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Old May 28, 2008, 12:30 AM   #37
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I would draw my piece and if he continued to advance he would be shot.

If he goes to his car the gun will stay trained on him till he leaves.

Then I would call the police and give them the plate of the car along with him and her's description.
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Old May 28, 2008, 01:07 AM   #38
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So maybe instead of chasing . . . getting into a better "shooting possition" would be better. You know a clear line of sight that is not necessarily right on top of him . . .

Makes sense . . .
No it doesn't.

Hypothetical situations have more "ifs" in them than Rosie O'Donnel has fleas.

First thing is do not do anything to draw unwanted or unfavorable attention to yourself. All this crap about "being aware of your environment" needs to come with a disclaimer about HOW to be aware of your environment without tipping every neanderthal playground/prison-yard bully off that you're watching them.

We were taught in our military unit to never make direct eye contact with folks when surveying/reconning. Ever "felt" eyes upon you? Bad guys sure as hell do. Bad guys are predators and as such, are much more acutely aware of their surroundings than most others--especially potential prey.

Learn to use your peripheral vision--and not just for possible trouble, but also for possible help, concealment and evasion.

And finally, even if you have the upper hand (ie, a weapon or specialized training/skills), always try to give the idiot trouble-maker a way out in which he can save face. It's called swallowing your ego, but it beats swallowing a stiff sentence from an unsympathetic judge or jury.

Example--

I had a dockworker in Houston get mouthy with me in front of his beer-bellied buddies one day. I was about six months out of the service and looking up a friend from basic training days down on the docks.

Tough guy makes some remark and I ignore him. But some people just gotta push it and don't know when or with who to quit.

Big guy runs up behind me and shoves me from behind. I get up and face him, ready to eat him alive. I see a typical anchor and USN tattoo on the guy's forearm. "You were in the Navy?" I ask him. He nods while calling me a few unflattering names, while turning around and grinning at his buddies.

"So was I," I tell him, rolling up my sleeve and showing him MY tattoo. "Just got out a few months ago."

Tough guy sees my tattoo and instantly recognizes it. His face loses a lot of color and his entire demeanor changes. This was back in the 70's before Hollywood and cable television and their BS myths. The guy takes a step back. "Jesus, man," he starts off. "Sorry, man. I don't want any trouble."

"So you know what's about to happen, don't you?" I tell him.

The guy is just standing there, not saying anything in spite of his butt buddies yelling at him to kick my ass. "Tell you what," I tell him. "Turn around and head right back to your buddies--but go ahead and call me an ******* and whatever else you want. But you better keep walking away while you do it. This way, I won't go to jail and you won't go to the hospital. Deal?"

The guy took the deal and called me a few names while trying to strut back to his buddies, but he just didn't have it in him. He went his way, I went mine. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got arrested.

I also had my Model 66 tucked in my waistband. In Texas, we have disparity of force. Four of them against one of me would've been more than enough justification to use whatever force necessary.

But was it necessary?

Not in this case, it wasn't.

Always be prepared to swallow your ego and do whatever, say whatever to get out of such situations.

Because speaking from experience, once you pull the trigger, you can never call the bullet back. Never forget that.

All so many of these hypothetical situations/scenarios really accomplish is for some folks to bolster up their mindset that shooting is always Option Number One.

And that is rarely the case.

Jeff
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Old May 28, 2008, 08:03 AM   #39
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TexasSeaRay, I admit that I only glanced at most of the posts but I must say that I saw that most folks swallowed pride and retreated as option number 1.

You are dead on however I think more folks than you realize would fire only as a last resort.
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Old May 28, 2008, 11:14 AM   #40
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Get the drop on him.
Assume a defensive posture with your hand on your weapon, but not drawn. Raise a hand and command "STAY BACK, STOP NOW!"
If he doesn't:
Draw your weapon, take one step back, and point it at his heart. Give a command "STAY BACK, STOP OR I'LL SHOOT YOU."
If he doesn't:
When he's about 10 feet away, take him out.
Sorry, I think you get to spend a few years in the slammer with Bubba. Unless I missed something, the BG is in public, on a public walkway, where there is no law prohibiting his presence. Basically all you have is a guy with a big mouth. No weapons, no force actually used, the guy hasn't even touched you, just a lot of jaw-jacking. Sorry, but unless there is something else here you don't get to kill the guy. Being rude and obnoxious is not a capital offense.
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Old May 28, 2008, 11:19 AM   #41
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Respectfully, when in a real life CCW event will you have time to do ALL of that?
You don't have to do all of it. You can turn around and walk away. OR you can just go up the walk of the nearest house. OR you can..... You don't have to just stand there and wait for this guy to get out of the car and get close to you, you already know that there is a strong potential for trouble based on earlier contact.
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Old May 28, 2008, 01:25 PM   #42
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Well if we are both on my property I am not walking away he can leave or suffer the concequences.
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Old May 28, 2008, 02:04 PM   #43
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Just depends on how much crap you like to take.

I, for one, have a problem with letting some jerk feed his ego at my expense. If I am armed and someone wants to jump out of a car and threaten me for simply looking at him then, well... where I come from that's called ****ing with the wrong guy. Let him advance and threaten all he likes while you simply stand there and stare him down without a word. If he gets close enough to make you think he's intent on more than just fanning his tail for the hen then it's time to get a grip on your weapon without yet drawing it and say, "I have a very good reason for not being scared of you. Do you need to see it?" If he continues to strut or takes that as a challenge then let him see it. He made threats and no doubt will be making more as he makes his way over to you. In my state that's reason enough to draw if he's big enough to carry them out.
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Old May 28, 2008, 02:34 PM   #44
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And finally, even if you have the upper hand (ie, a weapon or specialized training/skills), always try to give the idiot trouble-maker a way out in which he can save face. It's called swallowing your ego, but it beats swallowing a stiff sentence from an unsympathetic judge or jury.
Very true sir. I tip my hat to you. Take care and stay safe.

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Old May 28, 2008, 02:35 PM   #45
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Personally I think that theotherTexasRich has it nailed for pretty much all states. It's how I like to think I'd handle it.
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Old May 28, 2008, 04:45 PM   #46
Aqeous
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Suprised That this thread is still active . . .

Guess a can of worms don't die . . .


First off: TexasSeaRay that is some darn A+++ advise. Thanks for posting.


David Armstrong:

"You don't have to do all of it. You can turn around and walk away. OR you can just go up the walk of the nearest house. OR you can..... You don't have to just stand there and wait for this guy to get out of the car and get close to you, you already know that there is a strong potential for trouble based on earlier contact."

Being that this thread has taken on a life of its own . . . I will begin responding with a greater sense of clarity as oppose to cander.

Any event you can see coming is easily avoided. A car that you have never seen before that comes screeching to a stop carrying an enormous maniac is not something we can prepare for . . . thus why we all carry firearms.

Even though my post was a hypothetical event, I have seen and been through some stuff. And the only other option besides the readiness to fight, is a flight that is so fast and complete that it amounts to dropping everything (puppies included...which is not going to happen) and high tailing it away at full tilt. Then, if you are fast enough, and he has no resolve to chase (or chase you with his car) your safe.

(It should be noted that I am not just making this stuff up either)--[and just to be clear that doesn't mean I was ever chased by a car encase anyone is wondering]


Allot of these scenario's we go over and over more often are not taking into account that there are true maniacs out there. Predators and people that seem to just have no remorse, people that seem to lack a soul. Turing around and walking away is fine if the person is not approaching you, BUT if he is . . . turning and walking is NOT going to end well if someone is coming towards you verbalizing obscenities. (not all of us have navy tattoos LOL! We might be small, old, fat, handicapped . . . who knows. Sometime predators want to save face--but just as often they want to prey on the weak.) And like I said before . . . I really wasn't checking out his girl friend, I just looked and only for a moment. For all I know he was high as a kite. OR as TexasSeaRay said, maybe he was just a predator who felt "eyes upon him." Who knows . . . I really couldn't care less. All I care about is my safety and the safety of my loved ones (puppies included )

As for walking to a house: On my roads there are no sidewalks. There are houses spaced by empty lots, and drain off separating the lots from the streets. Walking all away across an empty lot, through the drainage, up the mound to the house, knocking on the door, and waiting for a reply . . . all while a gorilla is closing the distance . . . is not really realistic.

I submit that sometimes we can get lost in scenarios. Its kind of fun sometimes. But there literally are infinite possibilities to any given event. And life rarely imitates what we imagine in our minds . . . If ever.


I like the sound of the tactics that allow for the aggressor to be satisfied and leave. I like that allot actually . . . But when that doesn't happen, being able to turn from sheep to lion in a blink of an eye is a great strategy. I think thats going to be my new staple . . . Thanks Tex . . .




threegun:
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Old May 28, 2008, 04:55 PM   #47
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Good stuff here. Let's see. Prior to carrying I wasn't a very nice guy. Guy got out of his car in Santa Cruz, CA, after he cut me off, and came towards me. I got out of the car waited...
He came over, started to say something.
I said, more like snarled,

"Let's fight. I didn't get out of the car to talk."

Shut up, glared, and waited...He figured his odds weren't good, got back in the car, and drove away as fast as he could.
Good move on his part.

Recently some persian guy wouldn't let me into traffic, so I moved in anyway. Didn't have any choice, the lane I was in was blocked by construction.
Went through a signal, then the guy cut me off, by cutting across my lane, and banging into the curb in front of me, blocking the lane, forced me into the curb. He got out. I decided I had a few choices.
One, I could flatten him, end up in jail. Two, I could pepper spray him, still probably end up in jail. Third, I could shoot out his tires, and drive off, but, my car is easily identified, and, end up in jail, with more charges, felonies I'm sure, loose my life as I know it.
Fourth wait till he punches me, then pepper spray and shoot him, more jail. Jump in the car, go up on the curb, and leave him and his rather ugly wife sitting there, and not go to jail... I picked the last one...

So, I guess the real point here is the statement,

"An armed society is a polite society."

Having boxed and done martial arts, I enjoy fighting, when I win, and even sometimes when I loose. Most scumbags don't run up against guys that spend 5 days a week in the gym, and fight professionals for fun. None the less, my teachers would rip me a new one, and then take my head off if they felt I was using their art against their principals.

I suggest that the ultimate martial art is CCW, if you know what you are doing. And, with that art, goes the ultimate responsibility.

So, to answer your question: with a gun, retreat is ALWAYS my first option. Get away from the guy, don't say anything, leave. If corned, fight like a cornered cat. Do whatever you have to do to get away from the guy, and run, watching the entire time. If the guy has a weapon, AND HE POINTS IT AT YOU, or starts to, then shoot him.

Recently 3 kids, drunk, pulled into a liquor store I had stupidly parked in front of, hit my car, and walked into the store, with me watching the entire thing. I tried to take pictures with my cell phone, got the license, but couldn't ID the kids later. The kids ran in the store, jumped back in the car, and drove off. I did not spray them with pepper spray, I did not drop all three of them on the spot, nor did I pull my .357 and shoot them. I did NOT go to jail, either...I did not get sued...either.
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Old May 28, 2008, 05:01 PM   #48
Aqeous
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HOLY ROAD RAGE SOCRATES!


Wow . . . glade I don't drive with you.


Great advise though. Next time I won't post a scenario in such a good mood . . . way to much room for interpretation.
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Old May 28, 2008, 05:07 PM   #49
Aqeous
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Join Date: December 24, 2007
Posts: 646
New version of the senario people . . .

1.)You're walking on the street. (Near to your home but there is not really much around.)

2.) Your alone.

3.) To the left there is the road, to the right palm trees and underbrush so think if you jumped in you could almost bounce right back (and get cut up in the process.)

4.) A car you haven't seen before comes down the corner road. You look to see who's inside.

5.) Big shaved head dude speaks some obscenities before his car screeches to a halt very near to to you.

6.) He gets out, (more obscenities) and is approaching steadily with a enraged expression.

7.) In your right hand is a leash leading to a 3 month old puppy. At your side is your CCW.



What do YOU do . . .?


Lets here it . . .
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http://www.alljohnwayne.com/cowboys7.mp3
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Old May 28, 2008, 05:16 PM   #50
threegun
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Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Sorry, I think you get to spend a few years in the slammer with Bubba. Unless I missed something, the BG is in public, on a public walkway, where there is no law prohibiting his presence. Basically all you have is a guy with a big mouth. No weapons, no force actually used, the guy hasn't even touched you, just a lot of jaw-jacking. Sorry, but unless there is something else here you don't get to kill the guy. Being rude and obnoxious is not a capital offense
Quote:
"keep looking you **** I will come out there and beat the **** out of you."
BG with the "big mouth" made a threat. He then began to close the distance needed for him to carry out the threat. His body contains the weapons giving him the ability to carry out the threats. So you have intent, ability, and opportunity.

I'm with you on the retreat. I just disagree with your assertion that the BG in this case didn't meet the criteria for being a legal defensive gun usage.
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